The Sons of the Harpy is Not So Simple. The "Movement" Evolved.

[Frey family reunion]

Excellent thread. I think GRRM has cleverly hidden a lot of mysteries in Dany's ADWD chapters by making them so ridiculously boring. It's hard to spot the mysteries when your eyes keep glazing over.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

1) You're assuming they charge, which we simply don't know.

2) You're ignoring the fact that the demand has also gone up. Massively so in fact.

3) You're ignoring that this is a tiered economic system. The ex-slave whores are not offering the same service (or at least the same level/appearance of service) as the Red Graces.

1) We don't, but I couldn't imagine a free service like that. Revenue for the temple just makes sense. If the service were free, we'd see lines at the pleasure gardens. Instead, Drink talks about Red Graces staying up all night. That means there is a greater supply of Red Graces than demand in Meereen. In a free sex situation, that would never happen. So, it's very likely they charge.

2) We are specifically told that supply has outpaced demand with regards to the sex industry:

Food was more costly every day, whilst the price of flesh grew cheaper. (Daenerys I, ADwD)

3) The ex-slave whores served upper-class masters in Yunkai. Yes, on some level, Red Graces might provide a unique religious service, but you'd still still see crossover in business. Just as tacos may be unique from burgers, they are both still food. A decrease in taco sales would still affect burgers.

So, the Mereenese that Dany puts in positions of power are happy she's around and this indicates that those that she actively stripped of power would be equally happy?

I explained why you don't have to ask her to leave. Eventually she's either going to leave or she's going to die, that's obvious. She's not going to leave over a dozen murders, regardless of whether you ask nicely.

There wasn't a single "get out Dany!" written. Later, the Sons of the Harpy wrote demands. Why switch? Why keep your agenda secret in the first place?

In fact, there is no agenda. We see moneylenders, weavers, harpists, cobblers and Unsullied all killed. There's no pattern except "not slavers." Well, that's because the old slavers don't walk the street at night.

1) There is no evidence that the madam stole the house.

2) If this is the case then why does the rate of the Red Graces business matter?

1) There's little evidence that Rhee was killed for stealing a house . That's true. There's also little evidence that Rhee was killed for being the "voice" of freedmen. Rhee was killed.

And, yes, in the real world, it would be silly to assume that of all the cases that Dany heard in the Daenerys I, that she would come up in Daenerys II. The conclusion is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Absolutely.

Of course, this is Ice and Fire, so stories and coincidences seem to happen.

We have first: a house stollen and turned into a brothel and an order for jewels to be returned.

Then we have: a "voice" of prostitutes killed in her home with her fingers cut off

Was she murdered for the jewels on her fingers? Was someone collecting them and things went poorly?

Was the house the brothel? Was she murdered because the house wasn't returned?

Or were they just unrelated?

The point is, though, we don't know. And we don't know it was the Son of he Harpy.

2) The Red Graces are only relevant to show that even outside of the brothel story, there are other threats and angry people out there that Rhee faces. Dany's thinking is "Rhee died, therefore the Sons of the Harpy killed her for her political beliefs." It's a jump.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Then why do we hear only of the freedmen murdered? Why no Red Graces, none of the original guild members? The freedmen and the Unsullied: those who support Dany, whose lot in life was changed by Dany. Her people, and each kill marked by the sign of the Harpy in blood. And the cases we hear about are just the tip of the iceberg, there are killings every night. An actual war of terror in the streets.

No Meereenese asking Dany to leave: and which one of them would be so stupid as to voice this aloud and draw suspicion to themselves?

BTW, you're lacking an important quote here:

Nine. The word was a dagger in her heart. Every night the shadow war was waged anew beneath the stepped pyramids of Meereen. Every morn the sun rose upon fresh corpses, with harpies drawn in blood on the bricks beside them. Any freedman who became too prosperous or too outspoken was marked for death. Nine in one night, though … That frightened her.

First off, that's Dany's POV, which is fueled by Skahaz. It's not necessarily fact.

We only hear about freedmen getting murdered because they're the only ones who can be murdered. Rich people aren't walking the streets at night.

The messages are the most intriguing thing, though.

At the start of the story, they are just blood harpies. At the end, they are chalk harpies and scratches with messages like "Hizdahr the Hero." If the Sons of the Harpy wanted Dany to leave at the beginning, why didn't they write "go home Dany!"

I'm not sure why these individual people are choosing to make blood harpies. Copy cats? Religious ceremony?

Whatever the reason, it is different from later.

[Beorn Snow]

Not necessarily related to the theory. (Nice work btw, a real pleasure to read your thoughts, and insight). I like your idea on the house of Pahl poisoning and this truly seems to make sense of the "harpies." The Mereen storyline has been unfairly criticized by fans, people are just expecting the wrong thing and get pissed when they don´t get it. (But it would have helped to have gotten it earlier, and to have TWOW now so we´d get some of the conclusions ... or as much of a conclusion that asoiaf allowes.

Anyway, I find it amusing that both the green grace and the crones of Dosh Kaleen see some sort of Messiah coming from Dany. (Of course by coupling with the right guy).
Funny.

And we know that the Green Grace believes the child or Dany and Hizdahr will be some sort of savior:

"Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow.” (Danerys IV, ADwD)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

On the harpist. The cutting off of the fingers would highlight her use of the harp, but the cutting of the fingers is a bit of a mystery. How does Shahaz know they were cut off before she was killed? It was a break in and murder in the middle of the night, right?. Where is Shahaz getting his information form? Is he lying to make the killing seem more grusome or political?

That's easy. The blood tells. If her fingers were cut off after death, the blood would drop out of the stumps where her hands are on the ground. If she was alive, the heart would pump it out with a lot of pressure, creating a different pattern on the floor. That's made even more obvious if she thrashed and flailed about, spattering blood everywhere. And she would.

Grazdan zo Galare has a problem with specific weavers, therefore any killed weavers were in dispute with House Galare? That doesn't follow logically, indeed (again) you'd expect House Galare's ties to the murdered weavers to have been mentioned.

Dany states that those weavers gifted her a tapestry after the ruling. The killed weavers gifted a tapestry to Dany which she gave a place of honor. That narrows it down pretty much.

[Ygrain]

First off, that's Dany's POV, which is fueled by Skahaz. It's not necessarily fact.

Don't you think that if there were other murders, on the same scale as those of the freedmen, we would have heard from another PoV by now?

We only hear about freedmen getting murdered because they're the only ones who can be murdered. Rich people aren't walking the streets at night.

You claimed that this was an all-out war between merchants and Red Graces versus freedmen. Red Graces are very easy targets and not all merchants and guild members live in heavily guarded houses, so your argument holds no water.

The messages are the most intriguing thing, though.

At the start of the story, they are just blood harpies. At the end, they are chalk harpies and scratches with messages like "Hizdahr the Hero." If the Sons of the Harpy wanted Dany to leave at the beginning, why didn't they write "go home Dany!"

At the start of the story, Hizdahr was not king consort and was not imprisoned.

Also, perhaps they don't write Dany go home because it's her death and not her departure that they want, and this message is conveyed pretty clearly through killing her people?

I'm not sure why these individual people are choosing to make blood harpies. Copy cats? Religious ceremony?

Perhaps those are not individual people but an organized group, after all.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

You claimed that this was an all-out war between merchants and Red Graces versus freedmen. Red Graces are very easy targets and not all merchants and guild members live in heavily guarded houses, so your argument holds no water.

All out war? When did I say that? I'm saying that the murders are a collection of personal vendettas.

At the start of the story, Hizdahr was not king consort and was not imprisoned.

Also, perhaps they don't write Dany go home because it's her death and not her departure that they want, and this message is conveyed pretty clearly through killing her people?

What exactly is conveyed clearly through the killing? Because I don't know. There are no messages or a spokesman or demands. People are dead. That's it. What do the murderers want?

Do they want Dany dead? Do they want the return of slavery? Do they want Dany to leave? Do they want Unsullied to stop visiting Red Graces? Do they want freedmen moneylenders to stop lending money? Do they want freedmen cobblers to stop cobbling? Do they want a harpist to shut up? Do they want a harpist to give her house back? Do they want freedmen weavers to give a share of their earnings to their former masters? Do they want Brazen Beasts to stop torturing people?

We don't know. Because there are no messages.

[Ygrain]

All out war? When did I say that? I'm saying that the murders are a collection of personal vendettas.

You claimed that these personal vendettas were driven by a common goal of economic pressures. And, since the killings occur nightly, I labelled it for what it is - a war of terror. With all the killings marked with a harpy in blood.

What exactly is conveyed clearly through the killing? Because I don't know. There are no messages or a spokesman or demands. People are dead. That's it. What do the murderers want?

Do they want Dany dead? Do they want the return of slavery? Do they want Dany to leave? Do they want Unsullied to stop visiting Red Graces? Do they want freedmen moneylenders to stop lending money? Do they want freedmen cobblers to stop cobbling? Do they want a harpist to shut up? Do they want a harpist to give her house back? Do they want freedmen weavers to give a share of their earnings to their former masters? Do they want Brazen Beasts to stop torturing people?

We don't know. Because there are no messages.

You conquer a city, abolish its thousands of years old social establishment, murder multiple noble citizens in a horrible manner, and you make yourself a queen - and the members of your army as well as your civilian support are getting killed, every night, marked with the same sign. What message does it convey? Your turn when we get our hands on you, bitch.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

You claimed that these personal vendettas were driven by a common goal of economic pressures. And, since the killings occur nightly, I labelled it for what it is - a war of terror. With all the killings marked with a harpy in blood.

The economic pressure is the common cause, not the common goal.

Terrorism is threatening civilians to advance a political agenda. There is no political agenda. They are just killings.

There's no war. It's just violence.

You conquer a city, abolish its thousands of years old social establishment, murder multiple noble citizens in a horrible manner, and you make yourself a queen - and the members of your army as well as your civilian support are getting killed, every night, marked with the same sign. What message does it convey? Your turn when we get our hands on you, bitch.

Yet, she is never attacked (except by one kid).

[Ygrain]

The economic pressure is the common cause, not the common goal..

Poor wording on my part.

Terrorism is threatening civilians to advance a political agenda. There is no political agenda. They are just killings.

And you think that the freedmen weren't afraid in their homes at night that they might be the next target? That they didn't realize what happened to their brethren who rose above their status? This is exactly how terror works.

Yet, she is never attacked (except by one kid).

And what good would it make to attack Dany while she is well guarded and has a strong army within the walls who would drown the city in blood, were she harmed? The Meereenese on their own don't possess the power to deal with her just yet; through the killings, they are slowly wringing control out of her hands, eroding her support among the common people and shifting Meereen towards the state that would be more convenient for their ultimate goal to get rid of her and get their revenge.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

And you think that the freedmen weren't afraid in their homes at night that they might be the next target? That they didn't realize what happened to their brethren who rose above their status? This is exactly how terror works.

And what good would it make to attack Dany while she is well guarded and has a strong army within the walls who would drown the city in blood, were she harmed? The Meereenese on their own don't possess the power to deal with her just yet; through the killings, they are slowly wringing control out of her hands, eroding her support among the common people and shifting Meereen towards the state that would be more convenient for their ultimate goal to get rid of her and get their revenge.

The only evidence of an organization are harpies drawn in blood. We have no known political agenda. And the public has two examples of what happens when Dany leaves: Astapor (the poor enslaving the rich) and Yunkai (the rich re-enslaving the poor).

You say that the "Sons of the Harpy" want Dany to leave, but we have no evidence of that. There is more evidence that these a personal disputes.

But, let's suppose the Son of the Harpy are a political organization. These are the actions that they would have achieved:

1) Stopping war against Yunkai with Astapor

2) Creating the Brazen Beasts

3) Marrying Hizdahr

4) Opening the fighting pits

5) Stopping war against Yunkai again (maybe)

6) Allowing the Yunkai to trade slaves

How do any of these actions help the old slaver families economically? How do any of these actions lessen hatred towards freedmen?

If anything, shouldn't letting Dany go off and have her soldiers die in war be in the Sons of the Harpy's best interest?

[Ygrain]

The only evidence of an organization are harpies drawn in blood. We have no known political agenda. And the public has two examples of what happens when Dany leaves: Astapor (the poor enslaving the rich) and Yunkai (the rich re-enslaving the poor).

You say that the "Sons of the Harpy" want Dany to leave, but we have no evidence of that. There is more evidence that these a personal disputes.

But, let's suppose the Son of the Harpy are a political organization. These are the actions that they would have achieved:

1) Stopping war against Yunkai with Astapor

2) Creating the Brazen Beasts

3) Marrying Hizdahr

4) Opening the fighting pits

5) Stopping war against Yunkai again (maybe)

6) Allowing the Yunkai to trade slaves

How do any of these actions help the old slaver families economically? How do any of these actions lessen hatred towards freedmen?

If anything, shouldn't letting Dany go off and have her soldiers die in war be in the Sons of the Harpy's best interest?

The harpies drawn in blood and the choice of victims. That is your political agenda, and the tactics is pretty similar to that of KuKluxKlan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KuKluxKlan#First_KKK. Even the goal is: restoring the previous supremacy.

/facepalm/ Personal disputes. Every night, and every night, by every body, a harpy drawn in blood. Sorry but I see no point continuing this debate. You really should take a look at some historical examples to see that there is clearly an organisation at work, whether it may, or may not, have a leader.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Excellent theory, Sweetrobin. It's really well thought out.

[SunflashJT]

Excellent theory, Sweetrobin. It's really well thought out.

All his theories are very well thought out. He does a good job of finding text to support them as well. While they may not be correct (we won't know until book 6-7) he still does a good job defending them and explains them very well.

[SunflashJT]

Something to add as a question here and maybe I missed the answer upon a reread of this post, but why does the Green Grace shove Hizdar down Daenerys' throat as a suitor?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Something to add as a question here and maybe I missed the answer upon a reread of this post, but why does the Green Grace shove Hizdar down Daenerys' throat as a suitor?

Like the Dothraki and the Volantians, the Green Grace clearly believes that Dany will be a savior or a mother of a savior:

Dany did not trouble to feign surprise. “Why Hizdahr? Skahaz is noble born as well.”

“Skahaz is Kandaq, Hizdahr Loraq. Your Radiance will forgive me, but only one who is not herself Ghiscari would not understand the difference. Oft have I heard that yours is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, Jaehaerys the Wise, and Daeron the Dragon. The noble Hizdahr is of the blood of Mazdhan the Magnificent, Hazrak the Handsome, and Zharaq the Liberator.”

“His forebears are as dead as mine. Will Hizdahr raise their shades to defend Meereen against its enemies? I need a man with ships and swords. You offer me ancestors.”

“We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow.”

He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. (Daenerys IV, ADwD)

I think that the Green Grace stopped the murderers by claiming she saw a vision and telling the Meereenese population to be good. After all, she didn't just stop the "Sons of the Harpy," but also stopped all murderers (though she may be hiding corpses as well).

After the dragons start burning the city, the population is fed up with the Green Grace, stop going to the temple and start murdering again.

[SunflashJT]

Gotcha, just listened to the passage you quoted and was curious as to the Green Grace's motivations.

[Knight of the Pennytree]

Ive never looked at the mystery of the harpy this way, very interesting!