What comes first: Dragon or magic?

[Mal Malenkirk]

I didn't say he ''transformed'' him into a warg, or anything of the sort. Do you think he would be able to warg if he had not met Summer? Or if he had not had the little mentor sessions about flying with the 3EC? Again, the ability would be latent.

Also, Bloodraven is a greenseer. That magic works by projecting your conscious into something else, whether it can warg or not - so clearly, he could have contacted Bran even if he was not what he is.

But we're still back to: 'It's in the blood', which is my point and all i'm saying for the purpose of this thread. Yeah, if Bran had not had help from Brynden he wouldn't be so good so young, but we can tell by Jon that the power would have manifested at some point anyway.

So it's not the religion, it's the blood.

[Dire Dragon]

They say that in the show, but do they say that in the books? I am 3/4 through a ACoK re-read right now and have recently finished the chapter where Daenerys go through the house of the Undying and they don't say that. I have yet to read a new Daenerys after that though so maybe they say it after the house has burned down, I'll see.

Good point. I saw that in the show and thought that they had said it in the book as well, but I could very well be mistaken on that. I'm re-reading at the moment and just finished book one, so I'll see if it's in the book as well.

[Mal Malenkirk]

How so? What is there to indicate that the exact same would not hold true if Bran was born to two Andal parents?

We know the power *might* manifest itself anyway, but not to what extent.

We have empirical evidence that every single warg encountered so far has blood of the first men (10 characters so far).

That is not conclusive proof but it is enough to make a solid theory.

EDIT: Solid from a speculation about a fiction book POV anyway. A scientist would laugh at the notion that 10 events are enough to build a theory. :P

[Mal Malenkirk]

I know, I've argued the same thing aha... *sigh*, let me find the thread

It all depends on the level of proof you require.

We have no proof that blood of the first man is required, but then we have no proof that it isn't either.

The default claim would pressupose that there is no link, but then we can observe that so in 100% of warg instances, out of a sample of 10 observed wargs, blood of the first man was always present so it's enough for a strong theory.

[Little Rickon]

I don't think dragons are any different than other magical things, like warlocks, the others or children of the forest. Something before AGOT woke up magic and all these magical things strenghtened after it. Dragons waking up magic doesen't really make sense, since there was the others and wights (and presumably CotF and BR) using magic before that.

This is exactly what I was thinking. CotF have been around (albeit in hiding) and (presumably) still using magic. Is it possible that the link between the two are just "old wive's tales" and one does not have any bearing on the other?

[Mal Malenkirk]

And you better read it all, I went through 18 pages of threads to find that :P

Ugh. That's exhaustive. And exhausting. Will take a peek, thanks.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I just want to point out for the blood versus (whatever the it's not the blood argument is relying on) that Bloodraven himself also has the Blood of the First Men through his mother, Melissa of House Blackwood. And we've yet to see a character south of the wall who has warging/skinchanging abilities and doesn't have BotFM.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I know. As I said, so far the wiki note 10 characters identified as wargs and they all have blood of the first men. It's getting pretty conclusive IMO but corellation is not proof, sadly.

[ForgottenKnight]

I think we have a chicken or egg theory going on. I thought that the red comet was a sign that the dragons had returned. Everything we see in the series is already latent abilities or ones that have been increased greatly. After all its possible that the magic faded in the first place when the last dragon died.

[Bryanfury]

I think we have a chicken or egg theory going on. I thought that the red comet was a sign that the dragons had returned. Everything we see in the series is already latent abilities or ones that have been increased greatly. After all its possible that the magic faded in the first place when the last dragon died.

The comet appeared before the dragons were born though. Also I'd wager that, from what evidence we have from Dunk & Egg and the ASOIAF series, magic was actually at a higher point after the dragons were dead than immediately prior to it. As far as I can recall, beyond dragon taming we've got very little to no evidence of magic from the time of Aegons invasion right up until we hear about Bloodraven. Lets not forget by the time the series starts dragons have only been dead for some 150 years, and we've no real indication magic was more prevalent prior to the last dragons death. I mean, when Bloodraven was born it'd only been 20 years or so since the death of the last dragon. And at that I'd bet that the maesters would say that magic has been gone longer than the Targaryens have been in control of Westeros.

Magic had died in the west when the Doom fel on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different.

I mean even here the stories Dany had heard basically say magic faded away from Westeros and, I suppose, the Free Cities after the Doom (and even then we can surmise that the FM still absolutely had their magic working just fine, and likely the House of the Undying as well), but that magic in the east (Asshai etc) still existed a la shadowbinders and the like. I think the dragons have absolutely ZERO effect on magic, and instead the already resurging magic simply allowed the dragons to return. It's just an easy, yet incorrect connection that characters make. I personally think the resurgence of magic has more to do with Bloodraven, Quaithe, and Oldtown than it does with dragons (or even the comet, for that matter).

[willofDorne]

:agree:

Magic in this series is very closely tied in with religion and/or the elements - there are no magicians who do not have one or the other, afaik.

I strongly disagree and this is what makes this world so amazing. Tons of gods, religions and even the promise of magic, though as yet undiscovered what this could mean. Look at what Varys has in his little box, he described him as a "sorcerer."

[Bryanfury]

If you disagree, then perhaps you could give me an example of magic that isn't tied into religion?

Mirri's shadow-binding. Dragons births. The candles. House of the Undying. Wights.

I think it's important to accept that in ASOIAF magic is only tied to religion because the practitioners tie them together. Magic doesn't require religion or vice versa in this world.

[Mal Malenkirk]

All practioners of magical traditions in ASOIAF also have religious belief because... everybody does! An atheist in a medieval setting is a most peculiar thing.

It doesn't mean there is an actual link between the magical effects being accomplished and the religious belief. The magic practitioner also all sweat but that's unlikely to be the source of their power, right? ;)

We've seen plenty of characters fervently invoke the various gods for help to no effect whatsoever so we know belief alone is not enough to work magic/miracles. It's not a stretch to theorize that not only is it not enough, it might have nothing to do with it and all the characters who do manage to work magic/miracles might be able to do the same even if they turned atheist.

Hence my theory it is in the blood (genetic) and potentially there is nothing more to it.

But if there is an influence, it might be that the practioner's view shape what magical effect he is able to produce in which case religion acts like blinkers, not enablers. Who knows what the magician might be able to accomplish if he didn't believe he was only able to pull off that which his religion/myths tells him he should be able to do?

[Dire Dragon]

Mirri's shadow binding is in essence blood magic - a life for a life (and the same as the Dragons birth). I don't suggest that religion is necessarily the source of magic, but is clearly linked in there (this law is seemingly ubiquitous across examples, Thoros aside). Mirri I think attributes a lot to her own lamb gods anyway.

We have no idea what the glass candles are, or how they were made - except we know whoever made them had a religion. It's a poor point either way.

House of the Undying wise, fair enough. Warlocks tend to work with illusion - I am curious as to what magic they actually possess. As Daenerys says

But as I said - they are something of an unknown quantity, apparently with no religion.

The Others... well, that appears to be necromancy to some extent. There is thought to be a Great Other (we shall see), but who knows.

As I said at the beginning, I do think magic is often affected by religion - and I stand by that. Not that magic is derived from them, only moulded. For example, both the CotF and the Rhoynish use water magic, just in different ways. Blood magic again, is what I think is most central - and the examples of resurrection.

I don't quite understand your point. I don't think anyone would disagree that there are some rituals that can control/enhance magic (like Thorus resurrecting Beric using words or Mel and her flames). So I agree that the rituals surrounding the religion are required for some aspects, but it clear that you can have magic without any religious ritual (all the warging by the Starks) and magic with religious ritual without any belief (resurrection by Thorus of Beric) or ritual without religion (the glass candles) or magic without any human intervention (wighting).

So from my point of view, there was magic. People learned to control it and sometimes built religions out of it (Rh'llorr) and sometimes did not (Citidel and glass candles, warlocks) Some people called it a gift from the gods.

So I agree that religious rituals can mold magic, but not that ONLY religious rituals can mold magic as there are a lot of other methods that also work.

(edit: and as Mal just pointed out, in a land devoid of atheists, it's hard to say what happens in an absence of religion)

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I consider Dragons magic. A personification of fire magic which seems to be a pretty big deal in ASOIAF. They aren't the only magical creature but they are a big deal. What power gave Daenerys the visions to wake the Dragons and is it linked with the magical power of the Dragons found in the eggs? The magic of Dragons, the magic amplifying effect, and the Dragon eggs themselves might be related. If somehow the magic in the dragon eggs awakened that might have helped the magic ceremony to awake them.

So magic and Dragons return and the return of this magical creature makes magic stronger as well. Now magic never completly left as for Dragons who knows some somewhere in the world might had still existed. or not. See this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87077-dragons-in-asshai/

Similiarly some direwolves might have still existed north of the wall but now they came south of the wall. So magic and magical creatures becomes stronger and become more available even in teritory that is less magically strong. And we see Daenerys, and the Starks manage in the first case with the help of MMT the magic for return of the Dragons in the later there is direwolf, the warging abilities that weren't as powerful or there in the previous generation of Starks of Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, Brandon.

It does seem that the timing it such that at before the start of the series or at the start of it both ice and fire magic are having their resurgence.