What happens next with Theon?

[sweetsunray]

guilt is a natural punishment and it hurts very much and maybe it'll teach us to do better yes because we were in pain. but trying to get rid of it by blaming others in your head (or in general telling yourself it's not your fault) will not change that, cause the whole reason we do that is because it hurts t oo much to deal with, we still feel it and we still learn from it. it's just a way of dealing with said guilt, it doesn't make one cowardly or weak.

It doesn't teach you anything when you blame others and refuse to see your own responsibility in it. Because then you invest your energy in making excuses, instead of moving on and thinking of an alternative way to either prevent such a situation or deal with it differently next time. If you can't admit your mistakes to yourself even, then you are unable to correct them.

[Wmarshal]

Death, hopefully in it he may find peace with himself and his sins washed away.

[INCBlackbird]

It doesn't teach you anything when you blame others and refuse to see your own responsibility in it. Because then you invest your energy in making excuses, instead of moving on and thinking of an alternative way to either prevent such a situation or deal with it differently next time. If you can't admit your mistakes to yourself even, then you are unable to correct them.

that's the whole point, you can't move on from it if you don't forgive yourself, so you make excuses. that doesn't mean you don't learn anything. like I said, I do exactly the same thing as Theon and I never ever repeated anything I felt guilty over again, despite making excuses. when you feel guilty you have already admitted your mistakes to yourself, that's what feeling guilty means. it doesn't matter what you do with said guilt the lesson has been learned. the reason you scream to yourself in your head "it's not my fault" is because deepdown you know that it is your fault. you don't have to tell yourself that to know it.

[sweetsunray]

that's the whole point, you can't move on from it if you don't forgive yourself, so you make excuses. that doesn't mean you don't learn anything. like I said, I do exactly the same thing as Theon and I never ever repeated anything I felt guilty over again, despite making excuses. when you feel guilty you have already admitted your mistakes to yourself, that's what feeling guilty means. it doesn't matter what you do with said guilt the lesson has been learned. the reason you scream to yourself in your head "it's not my fault" is because deepdown you know that it is your fault. you don't have to tell yourself that to know it.

Feelings aren't thoughts. They're feelings. Actively changing your behaviour to deal with situations efficiently and without either harming yourself and others requires a cognitive analysis. So as long as you can't admit it to yourself in thought, you can't truly change things for the better. Any change born out of feeling alone without the cognitive process are alternative lymbic efforts, not cognitive ones. And most people ultimately fail at controlling the lymbic responses.

As for forgiving yourself: you can't forgive your mistakes without fully admitting the responsibilities you have in it as well as clearly seeing what you're not responsible for.

[INCBlackbird]

Feelings aren't thoughts. They're feelings. Actively changing your behaviour to deal with situations efficiently and without either harming yourself and others requires a cognitive analysis. So as long as you can't admit it to yourself in thought, you can't truly change things for the better. Any change born out of feeling alone without the cognitive process are alternative lymbic efforts, not cognitive ones. And most people ultimately fail at controlling the lymbic responses.

As for forgiving yourself: you can't forgive your mistakes without fully admitting the responsibilities you have in it as well as clearly seeing what you're not responsible for.

so how did it work for me then ? if it can't work without admitting it and I didn't but yet it worked...

of course you can, by feeling guilty you have already admitted to yourself that you made a mistake.

it's probably healthier if you can think about these things and make out what you are and are not responsible for and try and move on that way. but some people can't, theon in his vulnearable state who just actually killed a person he knows is innocent certainly couldn't. and you can't expect him too, as messed up as he already was before that. that doesn't make him weak or a coward, it makes him a human being, not a robot.

[sweetsunray]

so how did it work for me then ? if it can't work without admitting it and I didn't but yet it worked...

of course you can, by feeling guilty you have already admitted to yourself that you made a mistake.

it's probably healthier if you can think about these things and make out what you are and are not responsible for and try and move on that way. but some people can't, theon in his vulnearable state who just actually killed a person he knows is innocent certainly couldn't. and you can't expect him too, as messed up as he already was before that. that doesn't make him weak or a coward, it makes him a human being, not a robot.

I never claimed he was a robot. But I won't pity a murderer because he's done too heinous a crime to face it. Poor Theon! He just murdered an innocent kid, the kid of a woman he slept with. Now he's such a wreck. It's not fair of me to call him a coward and a weakling for it. BS!

A feeling is not a thought. Aside from Pavlov training, learning is a cognitive process. Feelings help us to become aware of an inner conflict or harmony. But basing your learning process on avoidance of cog/dis is no more than trying to control behaviour without really knowing whether it will help at all. If it helps: you're lucky.

[Lord Reaver]

He just murdered an innocent kid, the kid of a woman he slept with.

Nope. Never did no such thing. Accessory to, at best.

[sweetsunray]

Nope. Never did no such thing. Accessory to, at best.

It was suggested,not even out loud by a prisoner of his. He ordered the rest away and led people to it and then had others perform it. He was the leader, he was there, it was his order. He killed them. If someone who is not in a power or authority position over me tells me that maybe I can solve a problem by killing a person, and I tell him to do it, then I'm the one who ordered it, and fully responsible. Delegating the task doesn't wash away the responsibility.

[INCBlackbird]

I never claimed he was a robot. But I won't pity a murderer because he's done too heinous a crime to face it. Poor Theon! He just murdered an innocent kid, the kid of a woman he slept with. Now he's such a wreck. It's not fair of me to call him a coward and a weakling for it. BS!

A feeling is not a thought. Aside from Pavlov training, learning is a cognitive process. Feelings help us to become aware of an inner conflict or harmony. But basing your learning process on avoidance of cog/dis is no more than trying to control behaviour without really knowing whether it will help at all. If it helps: you're lucky.

didn't say you had to pity him. I said he wasn't weak or a coward because he felt guilty!

I don't get why everyone else seems to get away with murdering innocent people though, and they don't feel guilty about it! but somehow they're all good people, when theon does it and feels guilty about it he gets called a weak coward. so apparently guilt is now seen as a weakness, I thought it meant a person wasn't enjoying doing bad things!

just to be clear i'm not saying Theon is a complete good guy, he still killed innocent people. but if you ask me there's a big difference between the guy who kills an innocent person and doesn't feel a thing and the guy who kills an innocent person and feels guilty about it. the i'd say the second one is a better person. (I also don't tend to judge people on their actions but rather on how they feel while commiting those actions. because that is what actually says something about the kind of person that they are!)

btw, he never actually killed those kids. it was ramsay's idea, he did the deed, he enjoyed doing it. Theon gave the ok for it and he is the one with the guilt nightmares, I still deem him partially responsible but it was more Ramsay then it was Theon.

[INCBlackbird]

It was suggested,not even out loud by a prisoner of his. He ordered the rest away and led people to it and then had others perform it. He was the leader, he was there, it was his order. He killed them. If someone who is not in a power or authority position over me tells me that maybe I can solve a problem by killing a person, and I tell him to do it, then I'm the one who ordered it, and fully responsible. Delegating the task doesn't wash away the responsibility.

reading comprehension, what is that?

it's called manipulation.

also, theon was in a position of power when it came to his status, when it comes to his mindset ramsay was allways the puppeteer making theon do whatever he wanted him too...

[UtherSnow]

Currently, Theon is a pawn in the game. He has still has worth to Stannis, even if he is most unforgiving.

Execution? Far too soon. Taking The Black? Not in the state he's in, considering all that's been done to him at the hands of Ramsay.

Redemption? It'll be retribution should Theon (or Reek) sees to the end of Ramsay. Who'd be against that happening? Even Ramsay would think it'd be possible, however inglorious it may sound.

Theon will not be sacrificed to save Jon. That's totally unneccessary, unless you think a scratch is deadly.

Read Jon's 'finale' once more. I urge you to look at the words on the page this time, without jumping to a conclusion. Don't take sides in the Love/Hate killing field. Don't use spin either. The words on the page are all you need.

Going back to what's told in Dunk & Egg tales (recommended read btw), Greyjoys and Ironborn never did make a good impression on anyone, other than themselves. It's continued from there. Perhaps we can all agree that Theon is easy to write off, and he's his own worst enemy. I'll use Egg's catchphrase - 'Get him! Get him! He's right there! Right there, ser!' I'll give Theon some satisfaction when he takes care of Ramsay.

[sweetsunray]

reading comprehension, what is that?

it's called manipulation.

also, theon was in a position of power when it came to his status, when it comes to his mindset ramsay was allways the puppeteer making theon do whatever he wanted him too...

Yeah, boohoo, poor Theon, he was so weak an cowardly in his mind that he could let a prisoner manipulate him into ordering the murder of two innocent kids while he was in a power position. It's so unfair of me to call him a coward, weak and holding him responsible for it, and on top of that it's doubly unfair of me to call him weak and a coward for blaming others for his own choices, actions and orders.

I understand Theon and I pitty him, but I don't like him, sympathize or identify with him. And so far he has done little to earn my respect.

[INCBlackbird]

Yeah, boohoo, poor Theon, he was so weak an cowardly in his mind that he could let a prisoner manipulate him into ordering the murder of two innocent kids while he was in a power position. It's so unfair of me to call him a coward, weak and holding him responsible for it, and on top of that it's doubly unfair of me to call him weak and a coward for blaming others for his own choices, actions and orders.

I can't believe I have to say this again but blaming someone who gots manipulated because they "were too weak and let themselves be manipulated" is victim blaming. and once again I must ask you, do you truely think you'd done any better in theon's position? cause perosnally, I don't believe anyone would have. you cannot expect people to be above human abilities. we are all flawed, that's no reason to insult someone. and yeah, poor theon. you know the guy who was a victim his entire life from his own family, to the starks to the boltons...

[sweetsunray]

I can't believe I have to say this again but blaming someone who gots manipulated because they "were too weak and let themselves be manipulated" is victim blaming. and once again I must ask you, do you truely think you'd done any better in theon's position? cause perosnally, I don't believe anyone would have. you cannot expect people to be above human abilities. we are all flawed, that's no reason to insult someone. and yeah, poor theon. you know the guy who was a victim his entire life from his own family, to the starks to the boltons...

He was hardly manipulated at all; a prisoner showing some clothes and a wolf pin in a bag can be hardly called manipulation. The whole "I must be cruel" thing was in his head. In the show they have others say those things. But in the book nobody does so. It's all in his head. He manipulates himself. Victimhood doesn't give you the right to wallow in it and commit heinous crimes and it doen't excuse you either to do wrong.

And no, we're not all Theons. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm giving my opinion on a fictional personality.

[Wmarshal]

I can't believe I have to say this again but blaming someone who gots manipulated because they "were too weak and let themselves be manipulated" is victim blaming. and once again I must ask you, do you truely think you'd done any better in theon's position? cause perosnally, I don't believe anyone would have. you cannot expect people to be above human abilities. we are all flawed, that's no reason to insult someone. and yeah, poor theon. you know the guy who was a victim his entire life from his own family, to the starks to the boltons...

He was not manipulated, Ramsay gave him an idea and he ran with it. Manipualtion involves someone threatening you, or pushing a person, or when the person was unable to think, Theon was none of these things, he was a guy who needed to save face and took a route. I think many would, yes Theon was fucked up identity wise, but Davos, who gave his whole being to Stannis, was able to see child murder as wrong. Child is in the end wrong, it is not a offense, but a fact, and those that order such a thing are in themselves wrong doers. Theon doesn't blame Ramsay for his actions, why do you?

[INCBlackbird]

He was not manipulated, Ramsay gave him an idea and he ran with it. Manipualtion involves someone threatening you, or pushing a person, or when the person was unable to think, Theon was none of these things, he was a guy who needed to save face and took a route. I think many would, yes Theon was fucked up identity wise, but Davos, who gave his whole being to Stannis, was able to see child murder as wrong. Child is in the end wrong, it is not a offense, but a fact, and those that order such a thing are in themselves wrong doers. Theon doesn't blame Ramsay for his actions, why do you?

have we had this argument before in another thread ? it seems familiar.... anyways I go back to my previous question, reading comprehension, what is that ? Theon did not realise he was being manipulated, that's what manipulation is... making someone do something they think they came up with, while you actually came up with it and you use them for it. like ramsay being all "this is a great, my dad needs the starks dead, he'll be proud of me if I cause the deaths of two more "starks" and no one even has to know we're rebelling because Theon will be our perfect scapegoat" Davos is an entirely different character from Theon though, also a lot older with life experience that doesn't involve being a prisoner with no control who romanticizes everything in order to deal with his situation and then can't deal with reality... btw, did you read t he post above where I said theon's still responsible. I just think it's not fair to blame it all on him and absolve ramsay of all guilt (like the fandom likes to do because the boltons were so good in convincing the north it was all theon that apparently the fans believe it too and like to use him as a scapegoat for everything they can think of, just like the boltons) theon doesn't blame ramsay because 1. he didn't realise he was being manipulated 2. people blame themselves for things that aren't their fault all the time, it's part of being human, and this is something that theon was still responsible for and well... children died... who wouldn't blame themsleves ?

can I also point out once more that ramsay is very very sad the fans don't acknowledge his part in it. he's so very proud of it!

[sweetsunray]

have we had this argument before in another thread ? it seems familiar.... anyways I go back to my previous question, reading comprehension, what is that ? Theon did not realise he was being manipulated, that's what manipulation is... making someone do something they think they came up with, while you actually came up with it and you use them for it. like ramsay being all "this is a great, my dad needs the starks dead, he'll be proud of me if I cause the deaths of two more "starks" and no one even has to know we're rebelling because Theon will be our perfect scapegoat" Davos is an entirely different character from Theon though, also a lot older with life experience that doesn't involve being a prisoner with no control who romanticizes everything in order to deal with his situation and then can't deal with reality... btw, did you read t he post above where I said theon's still responsible. I just think it's not fair to blame it all on him and absolve ramsay of all guilt (like the fandom likes to do because the boltons were so good in convincing the north it was all theon that apparently the fans believe it too and like to use him as a scapegoat for everything they can think of, just like the boltons) theon doesn't blame ramsay because 1. he didn't realise he was being manipulated 2. people blame themselves for things that aren't their fault all the time, it's part of being human, and this is something that theon was still responsible for and well... children died... who wouldn't blame themsleves ?

can I also point out once more that ramsay is very very sad the fans don't acknowledge his part in it. he's so very proud of it!

manipulation=Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation)

1) Ramsay did not influence Theon's perception on what he ought to do. The idea of fearing to return without Bran and Rickon was all Theon's. Nobody egged him on in that regard. Not even Ramsay. Ramsay just showed him an idea.

2) Ramsay was not being deceptive about the idea, nor did he at the time abuse Theon.

Showing an idea is not manipulation. The only deception by Ramsay was that he conceiled his true identity. His identity was irrelevant for Theon at the time. What Ramsay did was exploit Theon's own ideas about what a leader must be like, but without influencing him in that perception. Was Theon used? Yup. Was Theon manipulated? Nope.

And my reading comprehension is just fine.

[Wmarshal]

have we had this argument before in another thread ? it seems familiar.... anyways I go back to my previous question, reading comprehension, what is that ? Theon did not realise he was being manipulated, that's what manipulation is... making someone do something they think they came up with, while you actually came up with it and you use them for it. like ramsay being all "this is a great, my dad needs the starks dead, he'll be proud of me if I cause the deaths of two more "starks" and no one even has to know we're rebelling because Theon will be our perfect scapegoat" Davos is an entirely different character from Theon though, also a lot older with life experience that doesn't involve being a prisoner with no control who romanticizes everything in order to deal with his situation and then can't deal with reality... btw, did you read t he post above where I said theon's still responsible. I just think it's not fair to blame it all on him and absolve ramsay of all guilt (like the fandom likes to do because the boltons were so good in convincing the north it was all theon that apparently the fans believe it too and like to use him as a scapegoat for everything they can think of, just like the boltons) theon doesn't blame ramsay because 1. he didn't realise he was being manipulated 2. people blame themselves for things that aren't their fault all the time, it's part of being human, and this is something that theon was still responsible for and well... children died... who wouldn't blame themsleves ?

can I also point out once more that ramsay is very very sad the fans don't acknowledge his part in it. he's so very proud of it!

Theon still ran with it and ordered child murder, that is what happened. So because Ramsay wanted to do this, this completely wipes away Theon wanting to do it? Theon is twenty year old man, the idea he never learned right and wrong or made some decisions for himslef is ridiculous. He has dealt with realty, he knew what he was in Winterfell, and he knew he was fucked if his little amount of men. Theon was smart as well as knew what the world was, he just wanted a proper place in it. Okay then, I just find it wrong to say he should not recognize his own guilt, for it is there and he owes that to his victim. The forum knows Ramsay and Roose are evil bastards, but Theon's hands aren't clean. Itwas his fault, as much as Ramsay's, for in the hand he was in a position and he had those boys gutted, he should blame himself and Ramsay, because in the end that is what makes him human.

[Trickrs]

He really wants to die...

So I think he'll make it to the ending.

[The Imperator]

He really wants to die...

So I think he'll make it to the ending.

lol If anyone wants to argue that Theon will survive the entire series, this may be the best reason to think so right here.

By the way, I always thought that Theon will try to go on a redemption arc, if you will, only to discover that (at least in his point of view) there is no such thing as redemption. Redemption turns out to be an illusion made up by humans in order to give themselves the will to survive (I mean in his point of view).

It would make for an interesting subversion of the typical "Redemption Arc", methinks.