What happens next with Theon?

[Little Member]

Currently, Theon is a pawn in the game. He has still has worth to Stannis, even if he is most unforgiving.

Execution? Far too soon. Taking The Black? Not in the state he's in, considering all that's been done to him at the hands of Ramsay.

Redemption? It'll be retribution should Theon (or Reek) sees to the end of Ramsay. Who'd be against that happening? Even Ramsay would think it'd be possible, however inglorious it may sound.

Theon will not be sacrificed to save Jon. That's totally unneccessary, unless you think a scratch is deadly.

Read Jon's 'finale' once more. I urge you to look at the words on the page this time, without jumping to a conclusion. Don't take sides in the Love/Hate killing field. Don't use spin either. The words on the page are all you need.

Going back to what's told in Dunk & Egg tales (recommended read btw), Greyjoys and Ironborn never did make a good impression on anyone, other than themselves. It's continued from there. Perhaps we can all agree that Theon is easy to write off, and he's his own worst enemy. I'll use Egg's catchphrase - 'Get him! Get him! He's right there! Right there, ser!' I'll give Theon some satisfaction when he takes care of Ramsay.

As for your Jon "finale" here are the words:

"… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why? "

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

Sure, the first shot missed, only grazing him, but the next two hit home good. To the point that Jon is too numb to feel the last blow. Maybe he doesn't die, but what was the sense of having a red priest present with an established ability to raise the dead?

Maybe I'm getting too old, but it seems to me GRRM needed Jon and Melisandre together so he could die and she could bring him back. Maybe in the book she doesn't know she can do that yet, but in the show she is brought to Thoros to establish for viewers she is aware of this power. Anyway, this subject has its' own forum.

As for Theon sacrificed to resurrect Jon, when has it been established the old gods have this power? GRRM is totally aware of deus ex machina. He always establishes a power before using it at a critical point in the story: Dany's fireproof or Thoros' raising Beric.

What can Bran do except sit and watch what's happening? What a sick joke... to have a power you cannot share with anyone or do anything with! You mean I get to see the future, but I can't share it with anyone because I'm trapped in a secret underground lair with tree roots feeding off me? Totally worth being dragged across the frozen tundra and almost dying of starvation!

If it were me, I'd invent some wheel that every 30 secs kicked Jojen in the nads for leading me out here. No wonder Blackraven sent a three-eyed crow to tempt Brandon to come. Somehow I think saying,"Come here, boy! I'm sick of being plant food and seeing visions that I can tell noone about. I want you to take my place so I can finally die," wasn't gonna work too well.

Theon is one of those characters in a Shakespeare play whose purpose it is to be a witness of everything that's going on and whose personal experience adds insight to the narrative, nothing more. No wonderful redemption or ironic twist of fate is in store for him. He will witness things. He will do it from his perspective, with his insight. Just think of him as a camcorder of flesh and bone.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Theon is one of those characters in a Shakespeare play whose purpose it is to be a witness of everything that's going on and whose personal experience adds insight to the narrative, nothing more. No wonderful redemption or ironic twist of fate is in store for him. He will witness things. He will do it from his perspective, with his insight. Just think of him as a camcorder of flesh and bone.

^Sorry, but that's an incredibly limited interpretation of who is widely considered one of the most complex characters in a huge book series known for complex characters.

*Besides, everyone knows Hotah is the human camcorder.

[Light a wight tonight]

What is dead may never die...but rises harder, and stronger.

What has been amputated does not.

[INCBlackbird]

manipulation=Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation)

1) Ramsay did not influence Theon's perception on what he ought to do. The idea of fearing to return without Bran and Rickon was all Theon's. Nobody egged him on in that regard. Not even Ramsay. Ramsay just showed him an idea.

2) Ramsay was not being deceptive about the idea, nor did he at the time abuse Theon.

Showing an idea is not manipulation. The only deception by Ramsay was that he conceiled his true identity. His identity was irrelevant for Theon at the time. What Ramsay did was exploit Theon's own ideas about what a leader must be like, but without influencing him in that perception. Was Theon used? Yup. Was Theon manipulated? Nope.

And my reading comprehension is just fine.

1) yes he did! he came up with the idea and presented in a way as if it was the only choice Theon had! probably telling him how his men would leave him all for his weakness if he came back empty handed (though I'm sure he was more subtle about it then that, I bet he didn't even present the idea directly but implied it, making theon think it was his idea! and then making him think it was his only option). you really think ramsay is above that kind of stuff ? wow, you hold him in high regards then...

2) killing those two kids was all in favor of the boltons, while it made the north hate theon even more then they already did. which is exactly what ramsay wanted!

"What Ramsay did was exploit Theon's own ideas about what a leader must be like," that's a great example of manipulation right there! ramsay exploited Theons vulnearablities to get him to do exactly what he wanted! and sure it was probbly very easy because like I have said many times before, theon was at his most vulnearable at that point, he felt trapped with no way out until ramsay gave him one and he probably clutched to it so easily that ramsay laughed at him for how easy he made it. and still blaming theon for "letting himself be manipulated" is victim blaming and it's a really horrible thing to do! theon is not blameless in the murder of those children, but neither is ramsay!

[INCBlackbird]

Theon still ran with it and ordered child murder, that is what happened. So because Ramsay wanted to do this, this completely wipes away Theon wanting to do it? Theon is twenty year old man, the idea he never learned right and wrong or made some decisions for himslef is ridiculous. He has dealt with realty, he knew what he was in Winterfell, and he knew he was fucked if his little amount of men. Theon was smart as well as knew what the world was, he just wanted a proper place in it. Okay then, I just find it wrong to say he should not recognize his own guilt, for it is there and he owes that to his victim. The forum knows Ramsay and Roose are evil bastards, but Theon's hands aren't clean. Itwas his fault, as much as Ramsay's, for in the hand he was in a position and he had those boys gutted, he should blame himself and Ramsay, because in the end that is what makes him human.

remember how I said Theon was still to blame as well ? I repeated it quite a few times.... the fans just seem to enjoy blaming everything on him! including blaming him for acts Ramsay did, simply because Theon is as much the scapegoat of the fandom as he is of the Boltons, it's digusting.

I said nothing about right and wrong. but yeah i'm pretty sure he never gave much thought to it before he did horrible things and felt super guilty about them. he was too focussed on trying to change himself so people would accept him. and no he became a prisoner at the age of 9 remember ? he didn't really get to make any desisions for himself, not the ones that mattered.

yes, he knew why he was at winterfell and that truth was too hard to handle so he taught himself to romanticize the truth to make it more barable, problem is that he's so used to doing that that he's stil doing it while taking winterfell... that was my whole point. he's not equipped to deal with reality, so when it hits him in the face he doesn't know what to do and quickly loses control because he can't delude himself anymore! you can really see him slowly lose control and becoming more and more desparate throughout his chapters in acok!

wait... what ? does the forum, really ? cause you know, i'm a huge bolton fan myself, I'm pretty much as involved with Ramsay as I am with Theon and over the last year i've encountered Theon hate on pretty much a daily basis, blaming him of all sorts of things including things he didn't do (the ammount of times I've seen the whole "theon burned down winterfell!") and in contrast I have seen none of that for ramsay! I have seen ramsay hate maybe once or twice. I'd never say theon's hands are completely clean, especially in asoiaf where there's barely any character who doesn't have blood on their hands...

[sweetsunray]

1) yes he did! he came up with the idea and presented in a way as if it was the only choice Theon had! probably telling him how his men would leave him all for his weakness if he came back empty handed (though I'm sure he was more subtle about it then that, I bet he didn't even present the idea directly but implied it, making theon think it was his idea! and then making him think it was his only option). you really think ramsay is above that kind of stuff ? wow, you hold him in high regards then...

Probably? It's in the text! You're inventing conversation that isn't there.

Nobody tells Theon it's better to be cruel than foolish: NO ONE. It's all in his head.

"I'd sooner have them dead, he thought bitterly. It is better to be seen as cruel than foolish." not long after he sets out with the search party.

Then Maester Luwin approaches him pointing out to Theon to give Bran, Rickon, Meera and Jojen mercy, mentioning how Lord Howland can make it very difficult for his uncle at Moat Cailin if harm comes to the Reed children. Theon reluctantly agree to sparing the life of these four, and Hodor if he doesn't put up a fight, but none for Osha. When Luwin thanks him for the mercy, he thinks...

Mercy, thought Theon as Luwin dropped back. There's a bloody trap. Too much and they call you weak, too little and you're monstrous.

As the search grows longer and more mysterious with a trail leading nowhere anymore, and dusk is upon them, Theon realizes he's defeated. The men finally argue that it's folly to search any further in the dark, and probably lame a horse or break a leg.

"Theon could taste bile at the back of his throat, and his stomach was a nest of snakes twining and snapping at each other. If he crept back to Winterfell empty handed, he might as well dress in motley henceforth and wear a pointed hat; the whole north would know him for a fool. And when my father hears, or Asha..."

That's the first and only time Reek speaks up. He explains that if he was one of the boys, he'd have gone north or east, to the Umbers, but it's a long way off and the boys probably seek shelter for the night, like the old mill. Theon doesn't like Reek much in his thoughts and distrusts him.

"He was growing sick of the man's sly answers. His lips look like two worms fucking. "What are you saying? If you've kept some knowledge from me..."

Make a good note of this paragraph: Theon is asserting authority over Reek.

And then Reek dismounts, beckons Theon, opens the sack he brought along and says "Have a look here". Theon rummages in the sack, sees the brooch, feels fur and wool of clothing. Then instantly, Theon orders everyone else,but for Gelmarr, Rednose and Aggar to come with him.

"I know where Bran and Rickon are hiding now."

"Prince Theon," Maester Luwin entreated, "you will remember your promise? Mercy, you said."

"Mercy was for this morning," said Theon. It is better to be feared than laughed at. "Before they made me angry."

Reek says nothing! He does not tell Theon he'll look like a fool. It's Theon telling himself that. Theon knows very well the idea comes from Reek. And the moment Reek shows and suggests the idea, he jumps on it. Ramsay exploits Theon, but he doesn't manipulate him. He suggests an idea, and Theon instantly jumps on it.

There is no "probably Ramsay made Theon think it was his own idea". There is no "probably Ramsay told him how his men would leave him". None of that! You're making things up to whitewash Theon. Theon notices Reek coming along on the search party with a bag, and he doesn't care what's inside. Then Theon doesn't take Reek in account anymore at all. He's totally left out from the text, until the very end of the chapter.

May I remind you that show-Theon is not exactly book-Theon. In the TV-series they can't show his internal thoughts, so they have others tell it to him, they have his men disrespecting and ignoring him. But none of that disrespect and ignoring by his men is present in the books, and nobody tells him in the books that if he isn't cruel he'll be seen as weak. The only one telling him that is Theon himself. Him alone.

"What Ramsay did was exploit Theon's own ideas about what a leader must be like," that's a great example of manipulation right there! ramsay exploited Theons vulnearablities to get him to do exactly what he wanted! and sure it was probbly very easy because like I have said many times before, theon was at his most vulnearable at that point, he felt trapped with no way out until ramsay gave him one and he probably clutched to it so easily that ramsay laughed at him for how easy he made it.

They are still Theon's vulnerabilities, for which he is responsible. Exploitation is not necessarily manipulation. In this case it isn't. Sure, people can flatter you hoping to explore a vulnerability or desire in you. And they can exploit you through that. But manipulation is trying to tamper with your perception or feelings, so that you feel crazy/heartless/ashamed/guilty when you should not.

and still blaming theon for "letting himself be manipulated" is victim blaming and it's a really horrible thing to do!

Victimhood is no excuse to commit murder or heinous crimes. Rubbish, Theon was not a victim in WF, other than his own delusions. And your efforts to "emotionally manipulate" me into thinking I'm doing something horrible by holding Theon accountable for ordering a murder of two miller's boys while he was in power and a total unfit leader worrying solely about "have to show I'm cruel to earn respect" are not working. Victim blaming is something entirely different. And so is victim-wallowing.

The one who does the victim blaming is Theon: they [the victims] made me do it! I had no choice. Apparently you don't find Theon's victim blaming all that horrible. You defended it, claiming Theon learns by not admitting his guilt and blaming victims.

Seems to me you need to look some stuff up in the dictionary: According to you Theon is a victim in a phase of his arc where he's not. According to you I'm being a horrible person for holding him accountable. Theon blames the victims that were murdered because of his order, and according to you I must pity him for being the victim of his feelings of guilt. According to you I'm horrible because apparently I'm insulting a fictional character by calling him weak and a coward. Meanwhile, also according to you, Theon is not horrible for blaming the victims he killed? Double standards! Blech!

theon is not blameless in the murder of those children, but neither is ramsay!

Strawman: never said that Ramsay is blameless.

[Little Member]

When I said Theon was that Shakespeare character that acts as a witness to what's going on, I mean to say the author set each chapter to be at POV. Some characters can't be everywhere the author wants them to be all the time in the chapter. So, the author creates a character that can be there.

The scene is Winterfell, everybody's up to something. Manderlys plotting against Freys. Freys against Manderlys. Roose and Ramsey are busy planning. The spearwives are looking for a way into the catacombs. Mance is killing people to keep attention off their movements and trying to sew discord in the Bolton camp.

Someone has to be able to move around the differet factions unnoticed. To report all this to the reader. It has to be someone noone fears. Someone as pitiful as an old broken dog. Someone who knew Winterfell like the back of his hand. Someone who had no power for he forfeited it by looking like a turncloak to one group of people while looking like a failure in the eyes of his own. Someone who spent time in intimate quarters with the Boltons. Someone who understood all too well that Ramsey was someone to be feared. Someone who'd see through the Lannister rouse to swap out "Aryas". Someone who feared more delivering bad news to Ramsey than he did for the fake Arya.

Now that the author knows what character he needs for the scene, now he goes back, inserts him in the beginning and proceeds to tell the story of that character for the audience so by the time we come to Winterfell we have become familiar with this character and maybe endeared. So when he finally builds up enough courage to try and salvage what's left of his pitiful existance, we actually cheer him on and want to see him succeed.

There, I said it. And I hope I made it clear for all to see it. Theon was invented for this moment at Winterfell, just so the author could give us the scene and the understanding of the mood that was building. Without Theon, and our attachment to him, the mood would not have been so intense. And Jeyne's rescue not as dramatic. It's called reverse engineering. Start with a desired ending and try to work your way back to the start. Without letting too much slip in spoilers, let's just say, he'll be used in that role again in WoW.

What's left for Theon to do? He fulfilled his only purpose in the book. If he died falling off that wall, it'd have been okay. He had his redemption and became a hero. But then he wouldn't be around for the battle of the Frozen Lake where Stannis is camped out. And the author would have to invent some other character to be the readers' eyes. But, luckily, this character has many of the same traits needed for the one in the next scene, so we'll just draw out his death a little longer.

Theon's too broken inside to kill anyone(unless it's a mercy killing). And he'd probably cry, rather than rejoice to see Ramsey die. So, I doubt he'll do either.

[Michael Snow]

by farm boys he meant the two children Theon had murdered and probably burned alive to cover his own ass, one of whom was possibly his own blood.

Yeah, Theon's a GRATE CHARAKTER

Theon is a bad person but a great character to read, yes.

[sweetsunray]

When I said Theon was that Shakespeare character that acts as a witness to what's going on, I mean to say the author set each chapter to be at POV. Some characters can't be everywhere the author wants them to be all the time in the chapter. So, the author creates a character that can be there.

The scene is Winterfell, everybody's up to something. Manderlys plotting against Freys. Freys against Manderlys. Roose and Ramsey are busy planning. The spearwives are looking for a way into the catacombs. Mance is killing people to keep attention off their movements and trying to sew discord in the Bolton camp.

Someone has to be able to move around the differet factions unnoticed. To report all this to the reader. It has to be someone noone fears. Someone as pitiful as an old broken dog. Someone who knew Winterfell like the back of his hand. Someone who had no power for he forfeited it by looking like a turncloak to one group of people while looking like a failure in the eyes of his own. Someone who spent time in intimate quarters with the Boltons. Someone who understood all too well that Ramsey was someone to be feared. Someone who'd see through the Lannister rouse to swap out "Aryas". Someone who feared more delivering bad news to Ramsey than he did for the fake Arya.

Now that the author knows what character he needs for the scene, now he goes back, inserts him in the beginning and proceeds to tell the story of that character for the audience so by the time we come to Winterfell we have become familiar with this character and maybe endeared. So when he finally builds up enough courage to try and salvage what's left of his pitiful existance, we actually cheer him on and want to see him succeed.

There, I said it. And I hope I made it clear for all to see it. Theon was invented for this moment at Winterfell, just so the author could give us the scene and the understanding of the mood that was building. Without Theon, and our attachment to him, the mood would not have been so intense. And Jeyne's rescue not as dramatic. It's called reverse engineering. Start with a desired ending and try to work your way back to the start. Without letting too much slip in spoilers, let's just say, he'll be used in that role again in WoW.

What's left for Theon to do? He fulfilled his only purpose in the book. If he died falling off that wall, it'd have been okay. He had his redemption and became a hero. But then he wouldn't be around for the battle of the Frozen Lake where Stannis is camped out. And the author would have to invent some other character to be the readers' eyes. But, luckily, this character has many of the same traits needed for the one in the next scene, so we'll just draw out his death a little longer.

Theon's too broken inside to kill anyone(unless it's a mercy killing). And he'd probably cry, rather than rejoice to see Ramsey die. So, I doubt he'll do either.

I think you made some good literary points here about the use of characters.

[Lord Reaver]

There, I said it. And I hope I made it clear for all to see it.

You made your opinion clear, yes. If you expect everyone to suddenly share it, well, you've got some learning to do, mate.

What's left for Theon to do? He fulfilled his only purpose in the book. If he died falling off that wall, it'd have been okay.

I find it more than a little presumtious for any reader of an unfinished work to make bombastic statements about any character's "purpose" in the work. Unless you are the author, or somehow can see inside his mind, you know as little about this purpose as anyone else.

Finally, if it'd have been okay if Theon died falling off the wall, why didn't he ?

[sweetsunray]

You made your opinion clear, yes. If you expect everyone to suddenly share it, well, you've got some learning to do, mate.

I find it more than a little presumtious for any reader of an unfinished work to make bombastic statements about any character's "purpose" in the work. Unless you are the author, or somehow can see inside his mind, you know as little about this purpose as anyone else.

Finally, if it'd have been okay if Theon died falling off the wall, why didn't he ?

There is a theory out there that Theon has a role to play with regards to Jon which I kinda like: Theon dreams about a feast of the dead Starks at WF. Jon has a dream in the crypts while the feast of the dead is happening overhead. It's as if they dream about the same event at WF from different POVs.

[The Marquis de Leech]

When I said Theon was that Shakespeare character that acts as a witness to what's going on, I mean to say the author set each chapter to be at POV. Some characters can't be everywhere the author wants them to be all the time in the chapter. So, the author creates a character that can be there.

The scene is Winterfell, everybody's up to something. Manderlys plotting against Freys. Freys against Manderlys. Roose and Ramsey are busy planning. The spearwives are looking for a way into the catacombs. Mance is killing people to keep attention off their movements and trying to sew discord in the Bolton camp.

Someone has to be able to move around the differet factions unnoticed. To report all this to the reader. It has to be someone noone fears. Someone as pitiful as an old broken dog. Someone who knew Winterfell like the back of his hand. Someone who had no power for he forfeited it by looking like a turncloak to one group of people while looking like a failure in the eyes of his own. Someone who spent time in intimate quarters with the Boltons. Someone who understood all too well that Ramsey was someone to be feared. Someone who'd see through the Lannister rouse to swap out "Aryas". Someone who feared more delivering bad news to Ramsey than he did for the fake Arya.

Now that the author knows what character he needs for the scene, now he goes back, inserts him in the beginning and proceeds to tell the story of that character for the audience so by the time we come to Winterfell we have become familiar with this character and maybe endeared. So when he finally builds up enough courage to try and salvage what's left of his pitiful existance, we actually cheer him on and want to see him succeed.

There, I said it. And I hope I made it clear for all to see it. Theon was invented for this moment at Winterfell, just so the author could give us the scene and the understanding of the mood that was building. Without Theon, and our attachment to him, the mood would not have been so intense. And Jeyne's rescue not as dramatic. It's called reverse engineering. Start with a desired ending and try to work your way back to the start. Without letting too much slip in spoilers, let's just say, he'll be used in that role again in WoW.

What's left for Theon to do? He fulfilled his only purpose in the book. If he died falling off that wall, it'd have been okay. He had his redemption and became a hero. But then he wouldn't be around for the battle of the Frozen Lake where Stannis is camped out. And the author would have to invent some other character to be the readers' eyes. But, luckily, this character has many of the same traits needed for the one in the next scene, so we'll just draw out his death a little longer.

Theon's too broken inside to kill anyone(unless it's a mercy killing). And he'd probably cry, rather than rejoice to see Ramsey die. So, I doubt he'll do either.

Nonsense. Theon's primary plot role in the book so far was to take Winterfell, thereby disrupting the Northern war effort (his screwed up identity issues have defined him from the very beginning, and the taking of Winterfell is entirely about the question of identity). Had Martin wanted to kill him, he'd have done it there, back in ACOK. But Martin didn't, because obviously Theon still has a role to play, both in terms of character development and in terms of plot.

Martin is quite willing and able to devise viewpoint characters as needed. Asha herself would work for Stannis' attempt on Winterfell. No need to drag Theon into it, not least because ASOIAF is a character driven series: plot events are determined by character, not vice versa. Theon takes Winterfell because it is in his character that he wants to be a Greyjoy, and he tries to hold it, because it is in his character that he wants to be a Stark. Forcing a character to do something for plot purposes, rather than letting the character act organically is a sign of bad writing, and Martin (hopefully) is better than that.

[INCBlackbird]

Probably? It's in the text! You're inventing conversation that isn't there.

Nobody tells Theon it's better to be cruel than foolish: NO ONE. It's all in his head.

"I'd sooner have them dead, he thought bitterly. It is better to be seen as cruel than foolish." not long after he sets out with the search party.

Then Maester Luwin approaches him pointing out to Theon to give Bran, Rickon, Meera and Jojen mercy, mentioning how Lord Howland can make it very difficult for his uncle at Moat Cailin if harm comes to the Reed children. Theon reluctantly agree to sparing the life of these four, and Hodor if he doesn't put up a fight, but none for Osha. When Luwin thanks him for the mercy, he thinks...

Mercy, thought Theon as Luwin dropped back. There's a bloody trap. Too much and they call you weak, too little and you're monstrous.

As the search grows longer and more mysterious with a trail leading nowhere anymore, and dusk is upon them, Theon realizes he's defeated. The men finally argue that it's folly to search any further in the dark, and probably lame a horse or break a leg.

"Theon could taste bile at the back of his throat, and his stomach was a nest of snakes twining and snapping at each other. If he crept back to Winterfell empty handed, he might as well dress in motley henceforth and wear a pointed hat; the whole north would know him for a fool. And when my father hears, or Asha..."

That's the first and only time Reek speaks up. He explains that if he was one of the boys, he'd have gone north or east, to the Umbers, but it's a long way off and the boys probably seek shelter for the night, like the old mill. Theon doesn't like Reek much in his thoughts and distrusts him.

"He was growing sick of the man's sly answers. His lips look like two worms fucking. "What are you saying? If you've kept some knowledge from me..."

Make a good note of this paragraph: Theon is asserting authority over Reek.

And then Reek dismounts, beckons Theon, opens the sack he brought along and says "Have a look here". Theon rummages in the sack, sees the brooch, feels fur and wool of clothing. Then instantly, Theon orders everyone else,but for Gelmarr, Rednose and Aggar to come with him.

"I know where Bran and Rickon are hiding now."

"Prince Theon," Maester Luwin entreated, "you will remember your promise? Mercy, you said."

"Mercy was for this morning," said Theon. It is better to be feared than laughed at. "Before they made me angry."

Reek says nothing! He does not tell Theon he'll look like a fool. It's Theon telling himself that. Theon knows very well the idea comes from Reek. And the moment Reek shows and suggests the idea, he jumps on it. Ramsay exploits Theon, but he doesn't manipulate him. He suggests an idea, and Theon instantly jumps on it.

There is no "probably Ramsay made Theon think it was his own idea". There is no "probably Ramsay told him how his men would leave him". None of that! You're making things up to whitewash Theon. Theon notices Reek coming along on the search party with a bag, and he doesn't care what's inside. Then Theon doesn't take Reek in account anymore at all. He's totally left out from the text, until the very end of the chapter.

May I remind you that show-Theon is not exactly book-Theon. In the TV-series they can't show his internal thoughts, so they have others tell it to him, they have his men disrespecting and ignoring him. But none of that disrespect and ignoring by his men is present in the books, and nobody tells him in the books that if he isn't cruel he'll be seen as weak. The only one telling him that is Theon himself. Him alone.

They are still Theon's vulnerabilities, for which he is responsible. Exploitation is not necessarily manipulation. In this case it isn't. Sure, people can flatter you hoping to explore a vulnerability or desire in you. And they can exploit you through that. But manipulation is trying to tamper with your perception or feelings, so that you feel crazy/heartless/ashamed/guilty when you should not.

Victimhood is no excuse to commit murder or heinous crimes. Rubbish, Theon was not a victim in WF, other than his own delusions. And your efforts to "emotionally manipulate" me into thinking I'm doing something horrible by holding Theon accountable for ordering a murder of two miller's boys while he was in power and a total unfit leader worrying solely about "have to show I'm cruel to earn respect" are not working. Victim blaming is something entirely different. And so is victim-wallowing.

The one who does the victim blaming is Theon: they [the victims] made me do it! I had no choice. Apparently you don't find Theon's victim blaming all that horrible. You defended it, claiming Theon learns by not admitting his guilt and blaming victims.

Seems to me you need to look some stuff up in the dictionary: According to you Theon is a victim in a phase of his arc where he's not. According to you I'm being a horrible person for holding him accountable. Theon blames the victims that were murdered because of his order, and according to you I must pity him for being the victim of his feelings of guilt. According to you I'm horrible because apparently I'm insulting a fictional character by calling him weak and a coward. Meanwhile, also according to you, Theon is not horrible for blaming the victims he killed? Double standards! Blech!

Strawman: never said that Ramsay is blameless.

I said probably because that conversation isn't in the books. the chapter ends when Theon plans on going to the farm, the plan to kill the boys isn't there yet at that point, he thinks Bran and Rickon are there. and Reek was one of the men that came with him and according to what we know about both Ramsay and Theon and what we have seen in the text that indicates Ramsay manipulates him I assume that that's what happened,

"

oh yeah I know those thoughts are in his head, obviously they are! he's trying to be a good greyjoy and being cruel when "nessacary" is what they thaught him (or at least that's what he thinks they taught him) and he's terrified of being seen as weak because that's what people always throw his way as an insult! and Ramsay knew about that weakness, probably guessed about his thoughts cause it's kinda clear when you look at him that he's desparately trying to live up to something. and he exploited both of those.

exactly! reek is the one that speaks up and implies he should go to the mill. it is not the first and only time though! but yeah theon doesn't mention him much because theon is too busy freaking out and being trapped in his own head to realise he's being manipulated!

there's also the fact that in adwd theon remembers how "ramsay was in winterfell too. but he was reek then and he wispered in his ear"(sounds like manipulation to me)

"What are you saying? If you've kept some knowledge from me..." this is also a great way to manipulate someone, implying stuff so that when you say the next thing the person thinks it was their idea to begin with, cause the other person was obviously too stupid to put two and two together, manipulation doesn't even come to mind.

theon THINKS he's asserting authorithy over Reek, which is exactly what Ramsay wants him to think!

"Ramsay exploits Theon, but he doesn't manipulate him." you know explotiting is a synonym for manipulating right ?

"You're making things up to whitewash Theon." I'm not making things up, I'm paying attension to what the text offers us. and I'm not whitewashing theon, I've said from the start that he's still responsible for it because he allowed it to happen. I'm just saying that it's unfair to put it all on Theon and call him a bad person for it because it was never his intension for something like that to happen.

"May I remind you that show-Theon is not exactly book-Theon." I am aware yes... however, the show did not have Dagmer tell him what to do because they couldn't show theon's inner thoughts, alife did a great job showing that on screen without us being able to read it! he did the perfect performance of a vulnearable person trying his very best to appear strong and acting all arrogant to do so but then looking like a desparate lost little boy the next moment! he's doing an equally good job with the reek scenes! they had dagmer telling him "do this..." to show that theon did get manipulated! and it only happened a few times to not make it too prominent, it wasn't all that prominent in the books either, you just have to pay attension and then you'll see...

"They are still Theon's vulnerabilities, for which he is responsible. Exploitation is not necessarily manipulation. In this case it isn't. Sure, people can flatter you hoping to explore a vulnerability or desire in you. And they can exploit you through that. But manipulation is trying to tamper with your perception or feelings, so that you feel crazy/heartless/ashamed/guilty when you should not." no actually manipulation is also to exploit your vulnearabilities, it's the form of manipulation that is most common I think... but if you want to call it exploiting vulnearabilities and not manipulation go right ahead, it's just a word. the same thing still happened and to say theon is responsible for his own manipulation because he was "weak" is victim blaming.

"Victimhood is no excuse to commit murder or heinous crimes." never said it was, remember how I said theon's still responsible. I don't absolve him of his crimes because he was a victim. but I do think it needs to be taken into account, human psychology is complicated and he's been greatly affected by being a victim. and no he is not a victim in winterfell, or well he's a victim of ramsay sorta but that's a different matter. I'm talking about not looking at the situation all black and white! the reason he was so vulnearable was because he was a victim his entire life until that point and you can't hold that against him, that was not his fault. and yes he is responsible for the things he did in winterfell, but I'm talking about weither or not he's a good person and that's when this victimhood comes into play because there's a difference between someone like theon who does horrible things without ever having intended to do them (he set out to be a good leader but that went horrible wrong because theon is the worst leader ever and cause for that can be found in his childhood) and feeling horribly guilty and someone like ramsay who does horrible things because he enjoys them! the first person has done bad things but is not a bad person the second one is.

"And your efforts to "emotionally manipulate" me into thinking I'm doing something horrible by holding Theon accountable for ordering a murder of two miller's boys" I'm not manipulating you, I'm saying victim blaming is a horrible thing. and holding him accountable for the murder of those two boys is not victim blaming no, that's not what I was talking about. I hold him accountable for that too (as I stated before many times) you were victim blaming him when you said he was responsible for his own manipulation because he was "weak" and "a coward" and therefor he "allowed" ramsay to manipulate him (no sorry, exploit him).

"The one who does the victim blaming is Theon: they [the victims] made me do it! I had no choice." yes that was victim blaming too, but there's a difference because he was doing it in his head so it didn't really do any harm and it wasn't really about the victim blaming it was about trying to get rid of his guilt, which clearly didn't work. the victim blaming that does harm is the kind where people go "it's the girls own fault that she got raped, she shouldn't have gone out that late at night, especially exposed like that" and the manipulation is a part of that too! the idea that someone is responsible for their own manipulation because "they shouldn't have been so dumb not to see through it" it's really disgusting to talk the exploiting of people's vulnearabilities like that right!

"According to you Theon is a victim in a phase of his arc where he's not." I wasn't actually talking about that I said "with his family, the starks and ramsay"

"According to you I'm being a horrible person for holding him accountable." nope, I hold him accountable too. and I didn't say you were a horrible person, but I think it's not very nice to call someone "weak" and "a coward" for not being perfect, and for being messed up by something that is not at all his fault.

"Theon blames the victims that were murdered because of his order, and according to you I must pity him for being the victim of his feelings of guilt." nope, I think you should pity him because he was a victim pretty much his entire life. I think the fact that he feels guilty merely means he's not a bad person. pity doesn't come into play here. I don't feel pity for theon when he's the prince of winterfell, I'm just happy he feels guilty because it means he's a better person then he's pretending to be.

"According to you I'm horrible because apparently I'm insulting a fictional character by calling him weak and a coward." not horrible but I think you have a very shallow standard of what is "weak" and "cowardy", the same standard the people in asoiaf have and I though we, as people of the 21st century, knew better than that.

"Meanwhile, also according to you, Theon is not horrible for blaming the victims he killed? Double standards! Blech!" he doesn't use it as an excuse to hurt them more or insult them, it only means he feels guilty (and it's all in his head, and he knows it!). there's a difference.

Strawman: never said that Ramsay is blameless.

really? than what did this mean ?

It was suggested,not even out loud by a prisoner of his. He ordered the rest away and led people to it and then had others perform it. He was the leader, he was there, it was his order. He killed them. If someone who is not in a power or authority position over me tells me that maybe I can solve a problem by killing a person, and I tell him to do it, then I'm the one who ordered it, and fully responsible. Delegating the task doesn't wash away the responsibility.

[INCBlackbird]

Nonsense. Theon's primary plot role in the book so far was to take Winterfell, thereby disrupting the Northern war effort (his screwed up identity issues have defined him from the very beginning, and the taking of Winterfell is entirely about the question of identity). Had Martin wanted to kill him, he'd have done it there, back in ACOK. But Martin didn't, because obviously Theon still has a role to play, both in terms of character development and in terms of plot.

Martin is quite willing and able to devise viewpoint characters as needed. Asha herself would work for Stannis' attempt on Winterfell. No need to drag Theon into it, not least because ASOIAF is a character driven series: plot events are determined by character, not vice versa. Theon takes Winterfell because it is in his character that he wants to be a Greyjoy, and he tries to hold it, because it is in his character that he wants to be a Stark. Forcing a character to do something for plot purposes, rather than letting the character act organically is a sign of bad writing, and Martin (hopefully) is better than that.

I agree with everything you said here! but especially the bold part! that really needs to be pointed out to a lot of people!

futhermore I'd like to add that I think theon's story will end with him resolving his identity crisis, which he may be pretty close too! but he also might not bed, I guess we'll find out when the next book is released. but I really hope he will survive the books, I'm scared he won't though :(

[Mithras]

1. Stannis will send him away with fArya, Asha, Alysanne and a bunch of guards before the battle is joined.

2. They will find their way to the Shadow Tower. But unfortunately for them, the Weeper will be succesful in his attack this time.

3. They will find that the Shadow Tower is already fallen and the crows are decimated.

4. Weeper will capture them easily. I expect a duel between the Weeper and Asha. Unfortunately for Asha fans, I think the Weeper will slay Asha with his scythe and lop her head off. It is foreshadowed like this:

“I can protect myself. Nuncle, I am a kraken. Asha, of House Greyjoy.” She pushed to her feet. “It’s my father’s seat I want, not yours. Those scythes of yours look perilous. One could fall and slice my head off. No, I’ll sit the Seastone Chair.”

“Then you are just another crow, screaming for carrion.”

5. Weeper will blind Theon. This will make him more receptible to Bran's connection and guidance. This way, Theon will complete the cycle (torture, gelding, mutilation, blinding) with Tyland Lannister.

6. Bran will contact Theon, say that he forgave him and use him as his messenger. Theon will agree.

7. Jon will deal with the Weeper.

8. Theon will say that he will be doing Bran's business so Jon will let him go away.

9. Theon will be used to make Dagmer leave Torrhen's Square and swear to never attack the North again.

10. By this time, Euron will be killed at Oldtown and his pickled head will be sent to Aeron in Iron Islands.

11. Aeron will summon a new kingsmoot and this time he will be chosen as a priest-king to finish what Balon started (the doom of the ironborn).

12. Theon will come with Dagmer to claim that both of the kingsmoots were invalid because he was not present to make his own claim.

13. Theon will warn the ironborn to leave the Old Way at once, or the Drowned God will destroy them in his wroth.

14. Theon will order the ironborn to follow Rodrik Harlaw as the Lord Paramount of Iron Islands.

15. Aeron will insist on his defiance.

16. Bran will send the Hammer of Waters to destroy Pyke along with Aeron.

17. The ironborn will come to senses.

18. After the ironborn plot is solved, Bran will guide Theon to Oldtown.

19. Theon will go and ask the forgiveness of the daughter of the captain of Myraham, of whom he has a bastard.

20. He will reconcile with her.

21. After the series ends, Theon will serve as a counsellor just like Tyland Lannister did.

22. He will be harder and stronger as a true ironborn.

[sweetsunray]

I said probably because that conversation isn't in the books. the chapter ends when Theon plans on going to the farm, the plan to kill the boys isn't there yet at that point, he thinks Bran and Rickon are there. and Reek was one of the men that came with him and according to what we know about both Ramsay and Theon and what we have seen in the text that indicates Ramsay manipulates him I assume that that's what happened,

Well you assume wrongly and derive the wrong conclusion from the end of that capter. Theon knows full well what Ramsay-Reek implies by showing him the clothes and wolf-pin. There's no need to bring dress-up clothes and wolf-pins along if Bran and Rickon are to believed to be sheltering the mill, and could actually be found still. And Theon knows that. It's when he finds the make-believe clothing in the sacks that he realizes Ramsay-Reek's suggestion. And he fully goes for it, sending any possible witness who would actually recognize the boys away, as well as think on who he can trust to keep a secret. You don't order people who can recognize Bran and Rickon away when you still believe you'll find them. You don't need to think about "hmm, who can I trust for this mission" when you expect to find Bran and Rickon and haven't made up your mind yet that you need to murder people. He also knows and agrees that it will involve murder. That's why he lets Luwin know it's too late for mercy. It seems to me I have a higher understanding of Theon's intelligence than you seem to do. What did you remark again about comprehensive reading?

"oh yeah I know those thoughts are in his head, obviously they are! he's trying to be a good greyjoy and being cruel when "nessacary" is what they thaught him (or at least that's what he thinks they taught him) and he's terrified of being seen as weak because that's what people always throw his way as an insult! and Ramsay knew about that weakness, probably guessed about his thoughts cause it's kinda clear when you look at him that he's desparately trying to live up to something. and he exploited both of those.

Only one saying such a thing was Balon and Asha, who aren't around. His men though aren't saying it. The Starks never said so. Reek isn't saying so. You're making stuff up again that isn't in the books. It's not about being a good greyjoy, but about his pride.

exactly! reek is the one that speaks up and implies he should go to the mill. it is not the first and only time though! but yeah theon doesn't mention him much because theon is too busy freaking out and being trapped in his own head to realise he's being manipulated!

there's also the fact that in adwd theon remembers how "ramsay was in winterfell too. but he was reek then and he wispered in his ear"(sounds like manipulation to me)

...

theon THINKS he's asserting authorithy over Reek, which is exactly what Ramsay wants him to think!

In the hunting sequence Reek speaks up once before: to point out that a wolf wouldn't run in a stream upstream for such a long while.

Sure, Reek suggests stuff before... guess what Theon does with those suggestions? Oppose them. Reek suggests to flay the boys at the start of the day at WF, and Theon instantly opposes it and says "There will be no flaying in the North as long as I rule in Winterfell"... So much for Theon only "thinking" he's authoritive. He is being authoritive and he has authority. It's one of those things that are not just only in his head.

"What are you saying? If you've kept some knowledge from me..." this is also a great way to manipulate someone, implying stuff so that when you say the next thing the person thinks it was their idea to begin with, cause the other person was obviously too stupid to put two and two together, manipulation doesn't even come to mind.

Theon doesn't feel stupid, nor does he think it's his idea.

"Ramsay exploits Theon, but he doesn't manipulate him." you know explotiting is a synonym for manipulating right ?

Nope it isn't a synonym: eploit is using someone; manipulating is tampering with perception and thoughts. One can be manipulated without being used, and vice versa. That's not to say the two often are not often applied on someone by the same individual, but they can be distinct. ETA: let's assume you are a generous person, and don't have a problem by paying for drinks for people you meet and like. Let's assume I'm one of those persons you meet, and I let you pay for several of my drinks, and then when it's my turn I make my escape... I would have exploited you, but without manipulating you.

"You're making things up to whitewash Theon." I'm not making things up, I'm paying attension to what the text offers us.

Well either you haven't read the text in a long while or you should follow your own advice about comprehensive reading that you offered us. Because you're adding stuff that isn't there, or you deny what's there to insert your own inventions in instead: such as Theon believed Bran and Rickon were truly in the mill (show Theon believes that, not book-Theon) and people always telling him he's weak.

I'm just saying that it's unfair to put it all on Theon and call him a bad person for it because it was never his intension for something like that to happen.

one) the road to hell is paved with good intentions

two) it actually was his intention to murder two boys and dress them up like Bran and Rickon, once he realized what Reek was suggesting and had brought along.

And that's what I mean with whitewashing: you're distorting all related to Theon, just so you can make him to be more innocent and fit him with your beliefs about him, both by taking agency away from Theon as written as well as inventing more agency in others in between the scenes. Look up: avoiding cognitive dissonance.

"May I remind you that show-Theon is not exactly book-Theon." I am aware yes... however, the show did not have Dagmer tell him what to do because they couldn't show theon's inner thoughts, alife did a great job showing that on screen without us being able to read it! he did the perfect performance of a vulnearable person trying his very best to appear strong and acting all arrogant to do so but then looking like a desparate lost little boy the next moment! he's doing an equally good job with the reek scenes! they had dagmer telling him "do this..." to show that theon did get manipulated! and it only happened a few times to not make it too prominent, it wasn't all that prominent in the books either, you just have to pay attension and then you'll see...

But he doesn't get manipulated in this phase. The whole boarding scene of the boats, with the crew ignoring him, is an invention. The scene with Dagmer suggesting that Balon doesn't think well of Theon by only having him raid the shores is an invention. Theon thinks of it all on his own, during their first succesful raiding mission. Theon kills one of his men for drinking. And then Theon comes up with a plan to take WF without anyone manipulating him. He orders one of the most experienced captains to lure Cassel and WF reserves away from WF. Theon has full agency. Reek says to flay Bran and Rickon. Theon shouts he'll never allow it in the North. Again, Theon having full agency and authoritive.

and to say theon is responsible for his own manipulation because he was "weak" is victim blaming.

but I do think it needs to be taken into account, human psychology is complicated and he's been greatly affected by being a victim. and no he is not a victim in winterfell, or well he's a victim of ramsay sorta but that's a different matter. I'm talking about not looking at the situation all black and white! the reason he was so vulnearable was because he was a victim his entire life until that point and you can't hold that against him, that was not his fault. and yes he is responsible for the things he did in winterfell, but I'm talking about weither or not he's a good person and that's when this victimhood comes into play because there's a difference between someone like theon who does horrible things without ever having intended to do them (he set out to be a good leader but that went horrible wrong because theon is the worst leader ever and cause for that can be found in his childhood) and feeling horribly guilty and someone like ramsay who does horrible things because he enjoys them! the first person has done bad things but is not a bad person the second one is.

rolls eyes... He is not a victim in this phase. To say that someone is self-manipulating, avoiding cog/dis, or is self-deluding themselves is not victim blaming: it is describing what the character is doing to himself. Besides, Theon isn't on my couch for therapy. I can say whatever I want to.

I also reject the notion that solely previous life circumstances make him who and what he is. There is always a capacity and personality factor that is innate. Most abuse (emotional/mental/physical) victims do not turn into arrogant, must-be-cruel, murderers. On the contrary - the ideal victim in the eyes of a predator are already innate people pleasers, people who blame themselves instead of others, people who prefer harmony over animosity, and the abuse only makes them even more so, into the absurd... which teaches them to bond with other abusers, until they either die or break the cycle and get a better perspective.

Theon's inability to face his guilt and to face the consequences of the events he actually is responsible for is character weakness imo: it is his own personal individual limitation. And imo he would suffer from it irregardless of his youth or the environment he grew up in. And I can't muster any respect for it. I don't muster respect for it IRL, so I don't see why I should for a fictional character. If you find that shallow, and black and white, so be it.

I agree that Theon is a terrible leader. But I don't fault his past for that. To be a leader requires innate talent and qualities that Theon just doesn't have, and never would have, irregardless where and how he grew up. He can take initiative. He has bright ideas. He tries to be flexible, but he doesn't have the actual leadership personality. On Leary's interaction circle, Theon fits the profile of the 'helper': that is - he can take initiative (=power), but it works best when he does it for the "group". He was the happiest person when he could go out hunting and offer his findings to the cook. Nor do I think it's a bad thing when someone doesn't have the leader skills: a community needs all kinds of people. Theon's like his uncle Victarion.

I don't regard Theon as a villain, nor even a horrible person. He has inner aspects that could make him a good person. But he's done horrible, even despicable things, and thought of stomach-churning things, for all the wrong reasons, and with intent. Sansa went through hell in KL, but I'm glad she wasn't at WF. Theon's wishes and thoughts about her weren't exactly romantic good intentions at all. They were exploitive, disrespectful thoughts. At the moment, Theon is neither a villain, nor a good person. Being a good person is something you are both in mind, heart and action... not the heart alone.

It is beyond me that one would call Theon a "good person" when he harms and kills the smallfolk he has known for a decade for the sole purpose to save his face: people he talked with everyday, who greeted him everyday, who he exchanged jokes and jabs with, who cooked his meals, taught him about hunting and dogs and horses, who served him on his wishes, who he slept with... I don't think him a turncloak (he owed the Starks no allegiance), but it's totally beyond me to define someone who does that as a good person being manipulated and a victim. It's fucked up.

I'm not manipulating you, I'm saying victim blaming is a horrible thing. and holding him accountable for the murder of those two boys is not victim blaming no, that's not what I was talking about. I hold him accountable for that too (as I stated before many times) you were victim blaming him when you said he was responsible for his own manipulation because he was "weak" and "a coward" and therefor he "allowed" ramsay to manipulate him (no sorry, exploit him).

You misunderstand me... that comprehensive reading again ,huh? I said he was manipulating himself, not that he's responsible for Ramsay exploiting him. Ramsay exploiting him is not what makes him weak and a coward imo. His own inner thoughts on what a leader must be is weak and cowardly. It is cowardly and weak to want to kill people only to save your image. Worse, it's despicable.

the victim blaming that does harm is the kind where people go "it's the girls own fault that she got raped, she shouldn't have gone out that late at night, especially exposed like that" and the manipulation is a part of that too! the idea that someone is responsible for their own manipulation because "they shouldn't have been so dumb not to see through it" it's really disgusting to talk the exploiting of people's vulnearabilities like that right!

Well, that was never what I said or implied. And I never would. I even reject the whole "laws of attraction" new age stick, because that is in fact victim blaming. Nobody is responsible for the actions of somebody else, not even approaching you, bullying you, being a dick to you. I don't hold Theon accountable for Ramsay noticing Theon's weakness and exploiting it. I hold Theon accountable for acting on his weakness. That's what I mean when I say he's "manipulating himself". Similarly, nobody is responsible for someone else gaslighting them. But they are responsible for avoiding cog-dis. Why? Because nobody else can fix Theon's weakness but himself. Because nobody else can fix the cog-dis avoidance in an individual's head, but the individual.

"The one who does the victim blaming is Theon: they [the victims] made me do it! I had no choice." yes that was victim blaming too, but there's a difference because he was doing it in his head so it didn't really do any harm and it wasn't really about the victim blaming it was about trying to get rid of his guilt, which clearly didn't work. he doesn't use it as an excuse to hurt them more or insult them, it only means he feels guilty (and it's all in his head, and he knows it!). there's a difference.

:bs:. So, in other words, if I only think of Theon as weak and cowardly, I'm not harming anyone anymore? In other words,you're saying "just shut up and keep your thoughts to yourself." And you claim you're not trying to manipulate me?

And in fact his victim-blaming in his head does harm, exactly because he does not learn from it. He blames victims from the moment he takes WF and people are not welcoming him with open arms. It is because of his victim blaming that more people end up being dead-victims to his "I have to save face" stick, and it culminates in sacrificing two innocent miller boys just so he can return without fearing to look the fool, and his example of the kennel man. His victim blaming perpetuates a violent deadly cycle,

"According to you Theon is a victim in a phase of his arc where he's not." I wasn't actually talking about that I said "with his family, the starks and ramsay"

And we're discussing a phase where he has both authority and agency. No victim.

nope, I think you should pity him because he was a victim pretty much his entire life. I think the fact that he feels guilty merely means he's not a bad person. pity doesn't come into play here. I don't feel pity for theon when he's the prince of winterfell, I'm just happy he feels guilty because it means he's a better person then he's pretending to be.

Well, I pity him having a father like Balon, losing his brothers, and being taken from his home as a child (which might ultimately still might have been better than being raised by Balon), and I pity him for Ramsay's abuse of him. And yes, his feelings of guilt are the seed of possibly turning out for the better. He has the good heart, now solely requires the good mind and good actions (and he started with one already).

really? than what did this mean ?

The resulting see-saw perception of an argument. Ramsay's responsible for the idea; Ramsay and three of Theon's men are responsible for slaying the people in the mill and dressing the boys; Theon's responsible for thinking it a great idea, and giving the order to his men.

What happened though was that we pointed Theon's responsibility out, others reduced Theon's responsibility to that of just someone being no more guilty than being present, while it's more than that. He wasn't a bystander who just allowed for things to happen. He was in full agreement of it, thought it a super duper idea, and he took the 3 men with him he trusted not to betray the truth of who actually had been killed afterwards. Of course, someone killed those 3 men and he hacked Mikken's head off for it.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

You mean memory, sorrow and thorn? Yeah, that's a nice idea. And on my first read I was shocked with Seoman's heritage and the real story of who had slain the dragon.

@ Damp Hair: The generalization of how people having been in an identity crisis or captive relationship would sympathize with him is BS imo. I've been through some rough times in my past both on personal development as well as relations. It doesn't make me like Theon all that much. He's interesting, I understand how he lies to himself, and I seriously pity him for what Ramsay has done to him. And he's superbly written. But I don't like Theon, and I certainly don't identify with him, nor do I hate him, nor think he's an evil guy inside. But he has done evil things, and I don't like how he pushes the blame for it away. Not everybody who goes through an identity crisis (or feels an outcast or experienced abuse) acts haughty, blames others, etc. Some do, some don't. And then some others believe they are better than others and blame victims without ever having an ID crisis, or ever having experienced abuse. Everybody receives his or her load of crap to carry in life, and everybody deals with it differently, because of who they are (flaws as well as strengths).

Yes, Memory,Sorrow and Thorn series. I think the ice battle was in the Stone of Farewell (2nd book) though. Lots of tidbits throughout the whole series that you'll find in asoiaf, but used in totally different context. I had Seamon pegged as a hidden prince, but never had his heritage figured out till the end...and the real dragon slayer was a surprise as well.

Theon is such a well-written character, it will be hard to give him up, regardless of how he exits the stage. I don't see him living until the end of the series. Love the psycological dissection that several of you have shared...really a no-brainer as to why is who he is. Brilliant work you guys!

[Little Member]

Nonsense. Theon's primary plot role in the book so far was to take Winterfell, thereby disrupting the Northern war effort (his screwed up identity issues have defined him from the very beginning, and the taking of Winterfell is entirely about the question of identity). Had Martin wanted to kill him, he'd have done it there, back in ACOK. But Martin didn't, because obviously Theon still has a role to play, both in terms of character development and in terms of plot.

Martin is quite willing and able to devise viewpoint characters as needed. Asha herself would work for Stannis' attempt on Winterfell. No need to drag Theon into it, not least because ASOIAF is a character driven series: plot events are determined by character, not vice versa. Theon takes Winterfell because it is in his character that he wants to be a Greyjoy, and he tries to hold it, because it is in his character that he wants to be a Stark. Forcing a character to do something for plot purposes, rather than letting the character act organically is a sign of bad writing, and Martin (hopefully) is better than that.

If Asha stays with Stannis, who'll take Jeyne to Castle Black? As Ramsey stated in his letter to Jon, when he smashed Stannis' camp, there was no Jeyne. Without revealing too much, if anyone hasn't read the new Theon POV released from WoW, Theon witnesses things Asha wouldn't have been privvy to. And he provides insight to characters he met while campaigning with Robb that Asha hasn't met. Not to mention that Theon has useful info about WF from being on the inside that Asha wouldn't have since she wasn't there. And Stannis' allies in the North want more to see Theon dead than Asha. So, again, Theon must be thrust into his role as witness.

Though, just like WF, it won't be the only thing he does while there. What was that bit about about slayer of liars? Although I can't say if it'll be a direct result of his actions or a consequence of them. Ramsey must come into possession of Lightbringer some way. This is my bet:

Ramsey's about to be slain by Stannis, but Theon pushes Ramsey out of the way and takes the blow. Stannis is shocked and amazed that Theon would sacrifice himself for someone who treated him so cruelly that he pauses long enough for Ramsey to get in a killing blow.

[Lord Reaver]

Ramsey's about to be slain by Stannis, but Theon pushes Ramsey out of the way and takes the blow. Stannis is shocked and amazed that Theon would sacrifice himself for someone who treated him so cruelly that he pauses long enough for Ramsey to get in a killing blow.

Nice fanfic, but no. Theon's moved on from Reek already. There's no way he'd give his life for Ramsay's.

[The Marquis de Leech]

If Asha stays with Stannis, who'll take Jeyne to Castle Black? As Ramsey stated in his letter to Jon, when he smashed Stannis' camp, there was no Jeyne. Without revealing too much, if anyone hasn't read the new Theon POV released from WoW, Theon witnesses things Asha wouldn't have been privvy to. And he provides insight to characters he met while campaigning with Robb that Asha hasn't met. Not to mention that Theon has useful info about WF from being on the inside that Asha wouldn't have since she wasn't there. And Stannis' allies in the North want more to see Theon dead than Asha. So, again, Theon must be thrust into his role as witness.

You've got things back to front. Things are portrayed a certain way because it is Theon doing the portraying. His actions and thoughts are an outgrowth of his character, not vice versa.

The portrayal would have been different from an Asha, POV, yes. Doesn't mean that the same overarching plot event ("Stannis fights Roose for Winterfell") can't happen. There is no particular "need" to have the event described one way (Theon) over another (Asha), and certainly no need for teleological speculation that the only reason Theon exists is to show this particular scene. It's rather like saying that the Universe exists just to provide you with ice cream.