Arlan of Pennytree Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Your feet were cracked open oozing white puss? Yikes. White puss?? Come on now, lets not invent words to further our POV. . . Yes they've been cracked open and oozed CLEAR LIQIUD, most likely from a large popped blister! Google "friction burns" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Well, it might matter if it was only 10 hours. Part of the theory seems to be that it seems clear from the conversation with Ned that the KG were already aware of the sack and Viserys going to Dragonstone before Ned arrived. If that reading of the conversation is accurate, then the fact that no KG goes to Dragonstone to be with Viserys suggests that Jon was born before the KG got this news. So that version of the theory requires the following order of events: (1) Jon is born; (2) news of sack and V to Dragonstone gets to KG; and (3) Ned arrives at ToJ. So there needs to be enough time between (1) and (3) for (2) to occur. Ten hours is probably not enough--but I agree with the gist of your point. If Jon was born later than this theory assumes,however, then some modification needs to be made to the theory Well, it might matter if it was only 10 hours. Part of the theory seems to be that it seems clear from the conversation with Ned that the KG were already aware of the sack Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the Tower of Joy 600 miles south of King's Landing saw 7 riders approaching. House Sark White, a direwolf courant argent. House Dustin of Barrowton two longaxes bladed gules crossed, a crown between sable, House Glover of Deepwood Motte Silver mailed fist on scarlet, House Cassel Ten white wolf heads, House Wull Azure, three wooden buckets tenné, a bordure chequy cendrée and white, House Ryswell of the Rills Bronze, a horse's head sable orbed and maned gules within a bordure, Only Howland Reed is the head of House Reed and the Lord of Greywater Watch had no coat of arms ---- Ethan Glover (Silver mailed fist on scarlet) had been arrested along with Brandon and was Aerys' prisoner in King's Landing. Hightower was present for the execution of Brandon and Rickard. The conversation did show the KG were aware that the losers of a rebellion do not then ride in an organized group representing 6 houses 600 miles into enemy territory. (KG were aware) Viserys going to Dragonstone before Ned arrived. If that reading of the conversation is accurate, based on; “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” then the fact that no KG goes to Dragonstone to be with Viserys suggests Dead Kingsguard... not going to Dragonstone...they were dead. that Jon was born before the KG got this news.before Ned arrived. If that reading of the conversation is accurate That they were dead, So that version of the theory requires the following order of events: (1) Jon is born; timing conflicts with text (2) news of sack and V to Dragonstone gets to KG; No evidence and (3) Ned arrives at ToJ. solid evidence So there needs to be enough time between (1) and (3) for (2) to occur. Ten hours is probably not enough--but I agree with the gist of your point. ok If Jon was born later than this theory assumes,however, then some modification needs to be made to the theory Like the KG were guarding a member of the royal family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Maiden Fair Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 White puss?? Come on now, lets not invent words to further our POV. . . Yes they've been cracked open and oozed CLEAR LIQIUD, most likely from a large popped blister! Google "friction burns" Did you even read the quote? "a pale milky fluid" shouldn't be coming out of your blisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Did you even read the quote? "a pale milky fluid" shouldn't be coming out of your blisters. This is why I avoid going outdoors as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The other question I have is more from a writer's perspective. What does Jon being a Targaryen do for the character? If it is revealed that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, what is gained from that knowledge? It matters for him on a personal level, he's always struggled with being a bastard. He should know where he came from. Yes, he should know where he came from, if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar - regardless of whether he's their legitimate son or not. But why is it necessary to the story that he be a legitimate son? To give Jon proof of a marriage certificate as proof of his worth kind of VALIDATES the vicious, narrow-minded conservative Westerosi view that bastards are by nature inferior and worthless - which is a stupid, unjust view. To me, it's a more powerful story if Jon discovers his own worth through his own courage and work...that is, that he eventually attains the maturity and wisdom to accept his bastardy as irrelevant to his worth. His virtue comes from within - from his goodness of heart manifested in his deeds, not a marriage certificate given to him from without. To give Jon legitimacy as a prize for his struggles is sort of like saying, "Congratulations! For all your efforts you have won the right to be called a legitimate prince of the Targaryens! You're not a loathesome bastard like those other inferior baseborn worthless scum of the earth illegitimate kids you used to pity yourself for being! Aren't you relieved?!" Which sounds - rather shallow, to me. IMO, it would be a better tale if Jon was illegitimate AND the PTWP - the true Savior of Westeros turning out to a bastard - a status despised by all in Westeros, yet worthier by his own inner virtue and altruism than ALL those haughty aristocrats who pride themselves on their perfect pedigrees and think they entitle them to power - and the right to destroy the world around them to claim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 His fudging on time/distance actually makes me think there's actually something to my theory. It's left vague enough to raise questions, but at the same time, it's pretty much a given that GRRM will make it work out however he wants. There's more of a need for fudging (and thus more impetus to explain that there might be fudging and to deal with it) if my theory is correct than if Jon were born longer after the Sack, because that would give Ned more time to get there and not put as much constraint on the time element. If that makes sense. Yes, it makes sense and I agree. Basically, GRRM realized too late that he was careless and is preparing the public for the results of his carelessness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 His fudging on time/distance actually makes me think there's actually something to my theory. It's left vague enough to raise questions, but at the same time, it's pretty much a given that GRRM will make it work out however he wants. There's more of a need for fudging (and thus more impetus to explain that there might be fudging and to deal with it) if my theory is correct than if Jon were born longer after the Sack, because that would give Ned more time to get there and not put as much constraint on the time element. If that makes sense.I agree. Furthermore, I think he was specifically referring to TOJ. What other instance do we have where the time of travel is so relevant to the story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 That's why it would really help to know how long it took Ned to get to the Tower after leaving King's Landing. It is not hard to figure Ned went a minimum of 950 miles... he had a month or thereabouts to make it averaging 61 miles a day he made it in 2 weeks averaging 31 miles a day he made it in a month averaging 21 miles a day he made it in a month and a half averaging 16 miles a day he made it in 2 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes, he should know where he came from, if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar - regardless of whether he's their legitimate son or not. But why is it necessary to the story that he be a legitimate son? To give Jon proof of a marriage certificate as proof of his worth kind of VALIDATES the vicious, narrow-minded conservative Westerosi view that bastards are by nature inferior and worthless - which is a stupid, unjust view. To me, it's a more powerful story if Jon discovers his own worth through his own courage and work...that is, that he eventually attains the maturity and wisdom to accept his bastardy as irrelevant to his worth. His virtue comes from within - from his goodness of heart manifested in his deeds, not a marriage certificate given to him from without. To give Jon legitimacy as a prize for his struggles is sort of like saying, "Congratulations! For all your efforts you have won the right to be called a legitimate prince of the Targaryens! You're not a loathesome bastard like those other inferior baseborn worthless scum of the earth illegitimate kids you used to pity yourself for being! Aren't you relieved?!" Which sounds - rather shallow, to me. IMO, it would be a better tale if Jon was illegitimate AND the PTWP - the true Savior of Westeros turning out to a bastard - a status despised by all in Westeros, yet worthier by his own inner virtue and altruism than ALL those haughty aristocrats who pride themselves on their perfect pedigrees and think they entitle them to power - and the right to destroy the world around them to claim it. I understand your point, but the drama is just not as big if he is still a bastard--just a different bastard than he thought he was. Finding out that he is the true heir the Targaryen throne is just such a bigger WOW factor, I think GRRM has to go in that direction (even ignoring all the other clues that convince me that R&L were married). Jon will still prove his worth based on deeds and not birthright, but to really upend his bemoaning of his life-long struggle as a bastard, I think that he will realize that finding out he is actually "legitimate" does not actually change who he is. He is still the same person whether the bastard son of Ned Stark or the "rightful" King of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I understand your point, but the drama is just not as big if he is still a bastard--just a different bastard than he thought he was. Finding out that he is the true heir the Targaryen throne is just such a bigger WOW factor, I think GRRM has to go in that direction (even ignoring all the other clues that convince me that R&L were married). Jon will still prove his worth based on deeds and not birthright, but to really upend his bemoaning of his life-long struggle as a bastard, I think that he will realize that finding out he is actually "legitimate" does not actually change who he is. He is still the same person whether the bastard son of Ned Stark or the "rightful" King of Westeros. Yes, he should know where he came from, if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar - regardless of whether he's their legitimate son or not. But why is it necessary to the story that he be a legitimate son? To give Jon proof of a marriage certificate as proof of his worth kind of VALIDATES the vicious, narrow-minded conservative Westerosi view that bastards are by nature inferior and worthless - which is a stupid, unjust view. To me, it's a more powerful story if Jon discovers his own worth through his own courage and work...that is, that he eventually attains the maturity and wisdom to accept his bastardy as irrelevant to his worth. His virtue comes from within - from his goodness of heart manifested in his deeds, not a marriage certificate given to him from without. To give Jon legitimacy as a prize for his struggles is sort of like saying, "Congratulations! For all your efforts you have won the right to be called a legitimate prince of the Targaryens! You're not a loathesome bastard like those other inferior baseborn worthless scum of the earth illegitimate kids you used to pity yourself for being! Aren't you relieved?!" Which sounds - rather shallow, to me. IMO, it would be a better tale if Jon was illegitimate AND the PTWP - the true Savior of Westeros turning out to a bastard - a status despised by all in Westeros, yet worthier by his own inner virtue and altruism than ALL those haughty aristocrats who pride themselves on their perfect pedigrees and think they entitles them to power - and the right to destroy the world around them to claim it. I think learning who is parents are is paramount. I do not think learning that he is legitimate will matter to him; at least not in a major way. It will matter to Dany so that she will bend the knee but that is it. No matter what, Ned Stark is the man who raised him and who he will consider father. "It doesn't matter how many swords they give me..." His worth is not going to be proved by being the legit son of R and L, but by his deeds and actions in the fight for the Dawn. And I agree--it's the WOW factor. So many Unsullied were floored when Sean Bean said that Ned obviously wasn't Jon's father. Imagine what happens when they learn that Jon was the heir. We, who figured out R +L = J long ago, sort of take it for granted now. But people out there who just read the books for fun or watch the HBO show and aren't clued in are going to be floored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron_Damphair Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 You calling me a fence sitter? Not really my style. It may take me a little longer, but I make up my mind. If it walks like a duck. That's exactly your style, so far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It is not hard to figure Ned went a minimum of 950 miles... he had a month or thereabouts to make it averaging 61 miles a day he made it in 2 weeks averaging 31 miles a day he made it in a month averaging 21 miles a day he made it in a month and a half averaging 16 miles a day he made it in 2 months So you start by saying "it is not hard to figure out" and then go on to prove that it is basically impossible to figure out. A range from 2 weeks vs. 2 months is a large range--the point is to nail it down much more closely than that--which we just cannot do with the information we have. Not to mention that--as you know--GRRM has said that travel times that he uses for the book may turn out to be impossible given the distances so the calculation is even more irrelevant than that. So, in fact, we have absolutely no idea how long it took Ned--in-story--to go from KL to ToJ (unless Apple Martini's theory is correct and then it took about 10 days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Did you even read the quote? "a pale milky fluid" shouldn't be coming out of your blisters. You win, healing wounds typically ooze, as you said, "pus". :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It is not hard to figure Ned went a minimum of 950 miles... he had a month or thereabouts to make it averaging 61 miles a day he made it in 2 weeks averaging 31 miles a day he made it in a month averaging 21 miles a day he made it in a month and a half averaging 16 miles a day he made it in 2 months What if he traveled 54 miles a day? Or what if he traveled 28 miles on Tuesday but only 12 on Wednesday? What if it rained on Friday and that delayed him on Saturday but he caught up on Sunday traveling 43.1 miles over a span of 45 leagues but only as fast as the crow flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 What if he traveled 54 miles a day? Or what if he traveled 28 miles on Tuesday but only 12 on Wednesday? What if it rained on Friday and that delayed him on Saturday but he caught up on Sunday traveling 43.1 miles over a span of 45 leagues but only as fast as the crow flies. At least he did not use fractions (other than a month and a half). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 What If,What If,What If? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcrfvP11Hbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 And I agree--it's the WOW factor. So many Unsullied were floored when Sean Bean said that Ned obviously wasn't Jon's father. Imagine what happens when they learn that Jon was the heir. We, who figured out R +L = J long ago, sort of take it for granted now. But people out there who just read the books for fun or watch the HBO show and aren't clued in are going to be floored. You don't think there's enough wow-ness in the Big Reveal of Jon turning out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the prophesied savior? That unless the Unsullied also hear that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married, they will just yawn and throw the book aside/change the channel? To me, a marriage certificate on top of the Lyanna/Rhaegar Had A Baby reveal would seem mostly an afterthought in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 There's lots of characters whose reaction to that revelation I would love to see - Varys, Jaime, Alliser Thorne, Dany, Barristan, Jon Connington...And dont forget Lady Stoneheart, that is if she still cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 What if he traveled 54 miles a day? Or what if he traveled 28 miles on Tuesday but only 12 on Wednesday? What if it rained on Friday and that delayed him on Saturday but he caught up on Sunday traveling 43.1 miles over a span of 45 leagues but only as fast as the crow flies.I was told there would be no math ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It is not hard to figure Ned went a minimum of 950 miles... he had a month or thereabouts to make it averaging 61 miles a day he made it in 2 weeks averaging 31 miles a day he made it in a month averaging 21 miles a day he made it in a month and a half averaging 16 miles a day he made it in 2 months This proves nothing. See: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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