pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Yes I trust a holy oath from someone who douses hookers' privates with lye as much as I trust someone who would douse hooker's private parts with lye. In case you're wondering, that is zero. Someone who threatens to kill his son because he doesn't want him to succeed him is not really someone who gives a shit about holy vows. You know, the whole kinslaying taboo. Either he knows something we don't or he thinks it's bullshit. How are you missing the point? Army or not, he wasn't getting Margery unless he swore the vow. He had to bend to the High Septon. He explicitly says: 'What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?' I really don't know how else to phrase it for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 How are you missing the point? Army or not, he wasn't getting Margery unless he swore the vow. He had to bend to the High Septon. He explicitly says: I really don't know how else to phrase it for you... I feel like you don't know how leverage works. "You want me to swear to God(s) that I will give her back to you even though I outnumber you 5:1 and my troops are actual soldiers?" Once Margaery is gone, the sparrow has nothing on the Tyrells. I'm certain you can work the basic numbers if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Another point. I really like the theory and think it would be awesome but 2 questions that i'm hoping you could answer. 1. Isn't Cersei no longer queen because Margery is queen now. And it hasn't yet been decided who the new regent would be after Kevans death. Because if she is not then wouldn't this give her the right to not be defended by the Kings gaurd at this point which would actually benefit her if you are correct because now she can get the seven knights to defend her.2. If Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover are currently with Howland in KL isn't it safe to assume that they are aware of Jons true parentage (assuming L+R=J). If they are would that indicate they are still willing to follow Robbs will and attempt to crown Jon.A funny irony would be if Cersei doesnt use the kingsgaurd because then Margery could use un-gregor to defend her which is the opposite of what Cersei wanted. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I feel like you don't know how leverage works. "You want me to swear to God(s) that I will give her back to you even though I outnumber you 5:1 and my troops are actual soldiers?" Once Margaery is gone, the sparrow has nothing on the Tyrells. I'm certain you can work the basic numbers if nothing else. Your answering his question with your logic. The Tyrells have all the power they have an army at kings landing but they STILL have to swear an oath. Why would they do that if they could simply just take her...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 I feel like you don't know how leverage works. "You want me to swear to God(s) that I will give her back to you even though I outnumber you 5:1 and my troops are actual soldiers?" Once Margaery is gone, the sparrow has nothing on the Tyrells. I'm certain you can work the basic numbers if nothing else. Why swear the oath at all, then? If Randyll could just "crush" the High Septon, why not do it and save Margery? Because Randyll HAD to bow to the High Septon's demands. 'What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?' <<< are you even reading this? I'm sorry, but the evidence is clearly in the text and I can't continue to argue in circles with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Your answering his question with your logic. The Tyrells have all the power they have an army at kings landing but they STILL have to swear an oath. Why would they do that if they could simply just take her...... The HS can kill or hurt Margaery whilst she is in their possession. Now that they have given her over to the Tyrell forces, which can massacre them, well the Tyrells are free to do as they will. The HS had no real choice. That's kind of how force of arms works to anyone with a non-failing brain stem and the ability to breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Why swear the oath at all, then? If Randyll could just "crush" the High Septon, why not do it and save the Margery? Because Randyll HAD to bow to the High Septon's demands. I'm sorry, but the evidence is clearly in the text and I can't continue to argue in circles with you. If I have a gun to your head and tell your brother "Do 10 jumping jacks and he's yours", your bother is going to do 10 jumping jacks and get you (but you have no weapons). Once he is gone, I still have the gun, but you're no longer in my custody. Who's still got more power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Your answering his question with your logic. The Tyrells have all the power they have an army at kings landing but they STILL have to swear an oath. Why would they do that if they could simply just take her...... Jeez, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Jeez, thank you! Basic hostage situation. Do I need to refer you to movies to make it easier to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 If I have a gun to your head and tell your brother "Do 10 jumping jacks and he's yours", your bother is going to do 10 jumping jacks and get you (but you have go weapons). Once he is gone, I still have the gun, but you're no longer in my custody. Who's still got more power? What in the hell are you talking about? lol. The argument is: The High Septon has a shit-ton of power You're saying he doesn't because he gave Margery to Randyll But you are 100%, misrepresenting and misconstruing the text. He didn't simply give her away, he forced Randyll to swear an oath. This oath, what was force-ably sworn, was absolutely contingent upon Margery's release. I don't know how you continue to walk right around this fact. He forced Randyll to dance to his will. Randyll even admits it. It's directly in the text, and has been cited multiple times for you. You don't have any ground to argue this point. Period. Basic hostage situation. Do I need to refer you to movies to make it easier to understand? No, you need to stop digging that hole and come up for fresh air - where an actual conversation is being had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 What in the hell are you talking about? lol. The argument is: The High Septon has a shit-ton of power You're saying he doesn't because he gave Margery to Randyll But you are absolutely, 100%, misrepresenting and misconstruing the text. He didn't simply give her away, he forced Randyll to swear an oath. I don't know how you continue to walk right around this fact. He forced Randyll to dance to his will. Randyll even admits it. It's directly in the text, and has been cited multiple times for you. You don't have any ground to argue this point. Period. No, you need to stop digging that hole and come up for fresh air - where an actual conversation is being had. What does the oath mean to Randyll? Come out and tell me a "holy oath" to the sparrow means something when he's already doused hooker parts with lye and threatened to kill his son for being a lazy fatass. Just because you get someone to say something doesn't make it worth anything, especially when you give over all the leverage you had. Do you not know what intimidation is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 What does the oath mean to Randyll? That he gets Margery, which he otherwise wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 That he gets Margery, which he otherwise wouldn't Ok and now he has her and no one can take her away. So what exactly does the HS get out of him? A promise that she'll face trial from a man who massacres whomever he is told to, burns hookers with lye, and threatens to kill his own son? You really want to hang your hat on that? In case you really do not get this, Randyll said what he knew needed to be heard. He doesn't give 2 shits about saying an oath he doesn't intend on keeping, insofar as religion is concerned. He's loyal to his liege lord, no one else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 What does the oath mean to Randyll? Come out and tell me a "holy oath" to the sparrow means something when he's already doused hooker parts with lye and threatened to kill his son for being a lazy fatass. Just because you get someone to say something doesn't make it worth anything, especially when you give over all the leverage you had. Do you not know what intimidation is? there is no intimidation. the way your talking is the septon is screwed either way so there is no need for intimidation anyway. If that is the case he would not give up his captive because like you said he could harm her if they tried to attack him. But he does giver her to them after they swear an oath because he knew he had the power to not face retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 So what exactly does the HS get out of him? He just showed everyone that even with an army against he STILL has all the power. That's what he gets out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 He just showed everyone that even with an army against he STILL has all the power. That's what he gets out of it He has power while he has some leverage. He has effectively none now, unless you consider Cersei especially moving to Mace or his ilk. So he has nothing except a goodwill gesture that neither Mace or Randyll care about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 POBEB I posted some questions at the top of this page i was hoping you could answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyannaisalive Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 He has power while he has some leverage. He has effectively none now, unless you consider Cersei especially moving to Mace or his ilk. So he has nothing except a goodwill gesture that neither Mace or Randyll care about HAHA. I don't think you're understanding. He was safest while he had Margery. You are saying he was scared, if he was scared why would he give up his only leverage.......BECAUSE HE HAS ALL THE POWER . The fact that he makes Tarly swear an oath and then gives her up is the most important piece of information because it shows that even facing an army he still HAS ALL THE POWER. Does Randyll Tarly seem like a man who would simply do what this man says if Tarly himself had more power than the HS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 POBEB I posted some questions at the top of this page i was hoping you could answer. I'm not pobeb but I'll toss my 2 cents in 1) Cersei isn't queen. She's queen regent, if you want to take her word for it. She's part of the royal family but definitely not queen. 2) There is literally no reason for Maege or Glover to be in KL. To do anything meaningful, they need to be north of the Twins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Ok and now he has her and no one can take her away. So what exactly does the HS get out of him? A promise that she'll face trial from a man who massacres whomever he is told to, burns hookers with lye, and threatens to kill his own son? You really want to hang your hat on that? In case you really do not get this, Randyll said what he knew needed to be heard. He doesn't give 2 shits about saying an oath he doesn't intend on keeping, insofar as religion is concerned. He's loyal to his liege lord, no one else. I really gotta ask at this point: Are you reading the source material at all? How do you keep missing this: Tyrell did not let him finish. “These charges against my daughter are filthy lies. I ask again, why must we play out this mummer’s farce? Have King Tommen declare my daughter innocent, ser, and put an end to the foolishness here and now.” Do that, and the whispers will follow Margaery the rest of her life. “No man doubts your daughter’s innocence, my lord,” Ser Kevan lied, “but His High Holiness insists upon a trial.” Lord Randyll snorted. “What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?” “We have foes on every hand, Lord Tarly,” Ser Kevan reminded him. “Stannis in the north, ironmen in the west, sellswords in the south. Defy the High Septon, and we will have blood running in the gutters of King’s Landing as well. If we are seen to be going against the gods, it will only drive the pious into the arms of one or the other of these would-be usurpers.” Read it. SLOWLY. Everything you need to know is there. I can't help you any further than that, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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