The Trial of Joy

[mankytoes]

I think you guys might be over estimating the Septon power as well. If the Tyrell's don't like the way things look for Margery even 2000 men armed mostly with cugels won't standup to the might of High Garden. It would be a massacre.

Yeah, his power is mainly soft, not hard. It isn't so much his army, as the fact that many would be outraged if anyone attacked the faith, let alone massacred them. If the Tyrell's slaughtered the Faith, I think you'd see a peasant uprising.

I enjoyed reading the theory, I think the Howland Reed theory is a good one, I'd say it's more likely not to be true, but I wouldn't rule it out. There are some interesting points, though like with all long theories, some are stretching it a bit, I thought the one about the High Septon having mud brown eyes as an allusion to Jojen's moss green eyes, rather than just emphasising the fact he comes across as common and dirty, really failed Occum's razer. And it lost me at the end with the "7 on 3" trial idea. Aerys trial of Rickhard was simply cruelty, he wasn't trying to cleverly manipulate the rules, he could have just had him slaughtered where he stood, but he wanted to burn someone alive. Aerys didn't care at all for the laws of Gods and men at that point.

[HexMachina]

That would imply you read my theory, which you claimed you'd never do.

The wonders of hypocrisy!

Ah... Thanks for that ;)

So I can't change my.mind about things now? Okay then.

This "theory" is just as bad as the other ones of yours I have seen,

[pobeb]

This "theory" is just as bad as the other ones of yours I have seen,

Duly noted. Thank you for the contribution

[Mladen]

Seems convenient... Speaking of, I searched the SSM compendium. No mention of Howland's age... Granted, I'm on my phone right now too, so perhaps I overlooked something...

OK, not convenient anymore... I am on my laptop now, and I would gladly provide you SSM:

6) How old is Howland Reed?

He'd be in his thirties.

Now, we all know what this means...

/thread

[Ran]

So this iteration of the theory is done and we can dismiss the idea that Howland = the High Septon, unless one want to throw in the claim that he's obviously using a glamor or is a Faceless Man. Which, of course, no one in their right mind would actually do.

[pobeb]

OK, not convenient anymore... I am on my laptop now, and I would gladly provide you SSM:

Now, we all know what this means...

/thread

Thanks for the reference, but "/thread"?

Seems a little arrogant. Why can't Howland look older in his thirties? How old is Theon? How old does Theon look?

Unreliable narrator is an established technique of GRRM. If Theon can go from young to looking like the crypt keeper, I don't see why it's far-fetched to think Howland could look older.

[Mladen]

So this iteration of the theory is done and we can dismiss the idea that Howland = the High Septon, unless one want to throw in the claim that he's obviously using a glamor or is a Faceless Man. Which, of course, no one in their right mind would actually do.

You do understand you gave them a new idea? :)

Thanks for the reference, but "/thread"?

Seems a little arrogant. Why can't Howland look older in his thirties? How old is Theon? How old does Theon look?

Unreliable narrator is an established technique of GRRM. If Theon can go from young to looking like the crypt keeper, I don't see why it's far-fetched to think Howland could look older.

Not arrogant, just reasonable... GRRM is not unreliable narrator. He is author of the books.

[pobeb]

So this iteration of the theory is done and we can dismiss the idea that Howland = the High Septon, unless one want to throw in the claim that he's obviously using a glamor or is a Faceless Man. Which, of course, no one in their right mind would actually do.

Are you saying that, in the world GRRM has created, people cannot and have not ever looked considerably older than they actually are? It certainly sounds like this is your stance - am I right?

[pobeb]

GRRM is not unreliable narrator. He is author of the books.

Yes, however the unreliable narrator of the High Septon's features are Brienne and Cersei. I wasn't asserting unreliable narrator over GRRM at all, so it's odd that you'd take it that way.

Are you going to address the Theon age argument? If he can look considerably older, why couldn't Howland?

[Mladen]

Are you going to address the Theon age argument? If he can look considerably older, why couldn't Howland?

Are you arguing that Howland is looking 10-20 years older? Plus, Theon's looks is due to the torments he suffered in Ramsay's captivity.

[gmk]

Pobeb, you've clearly put a lot of work in to this, which is great to see. I don't find it convincing; let me try to explain why with the same thoughtfulness you've put in to developing the theory.

First, let's start with axes.

We encountered ruffians on the road as well. Filthy, unkempt creatures, with leather shields and axes...”

“They call themselves sparrows...”

She had only two knights amidst a sea of sparrows. She saw staves and scythes, cudgels and clubs, several axes.

You connect axes with the North, but I think there's a far simpler explanation. Axes are the exactly sort of weapons that dispossessed smallfolk would have. Axes, and scythes and clubs, etc. Few or no swords. The point here is that these folks aren't former knights or men-at-arms, they are peasants who've been uprooted by the war and grabbed whatever weapon they could.

You specifically connect axes with Galbart Glover, but I think the link here is virtually nonexistant. We never see axes specifically associated with Galbart or House Glover, to my knowledge. Galbart doesn't wield an axe. House Glover's sigil does not contain an axe. If we were supposed to associate Glover with axes, wouldn't it be more explicit somehow?

I think the character most strongly associated with axes isn't even from the North. It's Shagga son of Dolf, of the mountain clans, who we all know likes axes. Indeed, I think the scruffy, desperate sparrows armed with axes have a lot more in common with Shagga than they do with Galbart Glover.

More later...

[pobeb]

Are you arguing that Howland is looking 10-20 years older? Plus, Theon's looks is due to the torments he suffered in Ramsay's captivity.

I'm arguing that it's possible. Ned also looked notably older than he was.

And we don't know what Howland has been up to, so to say he certainly wouldn't have suffered or stressed enough to age his features has no textual basis

[mankytoes]

Thanks for the reference, but "/thread"?

Seems a little arrogant. Why can't Howland look older in his thirties? How old is Theon? How old does Theon look?

Unreliable narrator is an established technique of GRRM. If Theon can go from young to looking like the crypt keeper, I don't see why it's far-fetched to think Howland could look older.

I think a better question is, why would George not make Howland just older? As you demonstrated in the OP, Howland Reed could be significantly older, like the High Sparrow, but George has confirmed he isn't. Why needlessly complicate things? Why not just make him older when asked?

[WierWood Wolf]

So this iteration of the theory is done and we can dismiss the idea that Howland = the High Septon, unless one want to throw in the claim that he's obviously using a glamor or is a Faceless Man. Which, of course, no one in their right mind would actually do.

Quite an assumption that any of us are in our right minds. Har!

I quite agree though. Please no glamour or faceless man additions to this theory.

[Mladen]

I'm arguing that it's possible. Ned was also looked notably older than he was.

And we don't know what Howland has been up to, so to say he certainly wouldn't have suffered or stressed enough has no textual basis

Ned looked solemn, serious, not notably older. He was man in 30ies, he didn't look like he was in 50ies.

Yes, we don't know what's Howland doing, and this seems to be the only proof of your work. You are counting on that mystery to support this and entire idea comes from simply "we don't know something". Well, we do know something. We do know that age doesn't fit, no matter how you want to stretch the logic to make it work, we do know that Howland basically has no business in King's Landing (not to mention Mormont), the religious discrepancy etc... Ran has answered you, and given the fact that he knows the timeline better than any of us, when Howland was born (and perhaps when was HS born)

All and all, I know you want this to work, but it doesn't... We have all been there. Accept that and move on.

[pobeb]

Why needlessly complicate things? Why not just make him older when asked?

Because it's a gigantic piece of a puzzle that would practically lay out the rest of the story.

Imo, at least.

[gmk]

Let's talk character parallels/hidden characters.

It is my impression that these three distinct characters represent the missing Northern bannermen: House Glover, House Mormont, and House Reed.

Really? Perhaps there's more to the connection here that I missed, but the descriptions of these three are very generic. A big man, a small man, a tall woman. If we're drawing parallels off this, you could as easily argue that this represents the Lannister kids.

Interestingly, these septas share some striking similarities to the She-Bear Mormonts:

I believe you're suggesting here that these three septas actually are the She-Bear Mormonts. Is that right? If so, which is which, exactly? None of them sound like Dacey to me.

You make a lot of the septas being "thick-waisted" with "callused hands" and "heavy breasts"; but again, these aren't exactly exceptional characteristics. They are pretty much what you'd expect these septas to look like. Hard to draw much of a conclusion from that.

Asha’s description of Alysane:

Quote

Cersei thinks this of Septa Moelle:

Quote

Boiled leather is a pretty common thing in Westeros. I have a hard time making much of this.

[pobeb]

All and all, I know you want this to work, but it doesn't... We have all been there. Accept that andand move on.

Just to be clear, do you think the septas she-bear traits are coincidence? Or the parallels between Hermit's Hole and the Sept of Baelor? Or even the turtle and the old man of the river?

[gmk]

Let's talk Duskendale.

During the exchange between the sparrows and Brienne’s company, Duskendale is mentioned, and the sparrows, the big one in particular, have an unreasonably angry reaction:

Quote

Why so serious?

Here, you've completely misrepresented the text. This is the *second* time Illifer declares they are going to Duskendale. At the first time, there's no reaction from the sparrows about Duskendale at all. The reason they react angrily the second time (as you quoted above) is because Illifer has declined to join them in their march to King's Landing. It has nothing whatosever to do with Duskendale. (I'd quote the passage in full, but Kindle doesn't seem to want to let me to copy and paste, unfortunately.)

[gmk]

I think the theory is loony, but surely we can do better than "Ran said no".