The Trial of Joy

[pobeb]

Lady Arya - you are amazing as usual. The bears dancing down the steps - so brilliant. Again, just like with the Old Man of the River, you have pulled another connection which went entirely over my head. This is why I wish people, even if for just a moment, pretended the theory was true. So that, collectively, we could start matching more things we've missed. If we could all just do that, just for a moment, things just start to make sense. But, of course, most people are going to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the breadth or relevance of any evidence we provide.

Dr. Pepper - You were one of the first posters I admired when I first joined this site. To have you even acknowledge this thread means a lot to me. Thank you for your insight. Howland's age being affected due exhausting his power is a fascinating idea. Well done.

I don't have much else to contribute to these arguments that hasn't already been discussed. I tried my best to post the most comprehensive thread tied to this theory. As such, there is a gigantic source of evidence on the first page. The naysayers can look at it as they please, but to dismiss every single point I brought up as a coincidence or unfounded, is just wrong. Nitpicking one, or two things, doesn't bring down the whole structure of the theory. Everything I posted is just coincidence? Come on...

If all my points are bullshit, why are so many different people finding merit in them? All the points are coincidence and all the people who believe are delusional?

:shocked:

Despite this, I'm going update the OP after my vacation to include a "frequently asked questions" portion. I'm hoping to cover all the relevant counter arguments brought up by M'laden, Ran, and such.

Until then, I'm really happy this theory has sparked such a fervid discussion. There are some posts that annoy me - particularly the ones where people are insinuating or flat out telling me I'm ignorant and stupid. But, all in all, I couldn't be happier with how the thread is turning out. True or false, I think each side has presented very strong and compelling arguments. And these arguments are a lot more fresh than the same, tired, threads we see posted ad nauseum:

- Who would win if ____ fought _____?

- Is the Hound gay?

- Why Ned was stupid

- If the dragons had lazers strapped to their backs...

So, really glad there's a relevant conversation being had here. Kudos to everyone

[TheHouseHB]

I like the theory. If it is true then could The High Septon aka Howland use Aegon as a means to an end? What I mean is could he use Aegon to restore House Targaryen as the Monarch family of Westeros and keep the throne warm for Jon when the time is right to crown Jon as king?

[Lady Arya's Song]

Thank you Pobeb for very kind words.

One area that I would suggest is the fact that the Old Man of the River..the avatar of the gods..when Tryion speaks of wonders and gods appear at the birth of kings... Sorry paraphrasing here, since my books are not near.

The important word is kings which is plural. At this point I do not think the High Sparrow has anointed Tommen.

However, I do think we might see him anoint Aegon and even perhaps Stannis. There are hints in other places for example the kingsmoot that suggest a series of kings to sit the IT before Dany and or Jon become important to the Iron Throne.

Actually I am not even sure if Jon would ever sit the IT. He may or may not. Right now I am more inclined to view him as the king in the north who will be Lightbringer and PTWP.

[Mladen]

Dr. Pepper - You were one of the first posters I admired when I first joined this site. To have you even acknowledge this thread means a lot to me. Thank you for your insight. Howland's age being affected due exhausting his power is a fascinating idea. Well done.

Oh, my sweet summer child...

[pobeb]

I like the theory. If it is true then could The High Septon aka Howland use Aegon as a means to an end? What I mean is could he use Aegon to restore House Targaryen as the Monarch family of Westeros and keep the throne warm for Jon when the time is right to crown Jon as king?

I think that's his intention, but I'm still not certain that he'll be successful in this.

However, I do think we might see him anoint Aegon and even perhaps Stannis. There are hints in other places for example the kingsmoot that suggest a series of kings to sit the IT before Dany and or Jon become important to the Iron Throne.

Actually I am not even sure if Jon would ever sit the IT. He may or may not. Right now I am more inclined to view him as the king in the north who will be Lightbringer and PTWP.

I think you're right. I don't think Jon sits the Iron Throne. I think Howland, Maege, and Galbart are in King's Landing to avenge the Starks and pave the way for Jon to rule, but I don't think they'll be victorious. I actually think most, if not all, die in the Trial of Joy.

I think in the aftermath of everything, Varys will open the way for Aegon and Griff to sweep into the city and take control. So, plot-wise, the stage would be set to jump right into the Dance 2.0

Oh, my sweet summer child...

I was born in September :)

[Antler's Fury]

Nitpicking one, or two things, doesn't bring down the whole structure of the theory.

Well, it's more than just nitpicking. As I point out in my posts, both in this thread and in the HR=HS thread, the sparrows are too poorly armed to be Northmen, the septas are too old to be Mormonts, Howland Reed has his priorities extremely mixed up if he is pretending to be the High Sparrow, the GNC has nothing to gain from this conspiracy etc. The only really good point you have brought up is about Theodan the True, but that's about it.

If all my points are bullshit, why are so many different people finding merit in them?

Because most theories generally involve seeing hidden meanings and connections where there are none.

All the points are coincidence and all the people who believe are delusional?

Most of them are not even coincidences. They are just random, innocuous details that you ascribe nonexistent significance to.

The naysayers can look at it as they please, but to dismiss every single point I brought up as a coincidence or unfounded, is just wrong.

Why? I mean seriously, why should anyone assume, for instance, that there is some kind of connection between the turtle Tyrion sees on the Rhoyne and Jon? Tyrion is referencing Aegon when he mentions kings being born, not Jon. How you see a "massively strong" connection there is beyond me. And the weirwood staff topped with the crystal was held by the old High Septon who preceded the High Sparrow. As far as the Hermit's Hole is concerned, the Great Sept of Baelor is about as far removed as one could get from that place in terms of grandeur. That the High Sparrow prefer a small room akin to the Hermit's Hole only proves that he and the Elder Brother are both ascetics who favor simple religious living. There is no connection between the Old and New gods. And there's really no reason to assume that the stuff Jaime sees at the river has some kind of symbolic import. Not ever blonde girl mentioned in the text is a reference to Cersei, and not every wolf is a reference to the Starks.

[Bail o' Lies]

I think one of the prerequisites in order to believe this theory(HS=HR/ and or trial of joy) is that you have to believe the GNC. Since it help fill in a problem with that theory.

[three-eyed monkey]

MLADEN. The age thing boils down to this, can a man of late 30s, which we know HR is, look 10 years older? If the answer is yes then the apparent difference in age is not a deal-breaker. Cersei describes the HS as old because he looks older than her own 35 years, something we already know from his description, but that only confirms that he looks 10-15 years older than her, not that he is 10-15 years older.

If you think HR is minding Ned's bones in the Neck, then HR being in KL does not fit your narrative, not the narrative. Personally, I think the Green Men will feature in the last two books, in connection with Bran, Bloodraven, the CotF, the Others, TPwwP/AAR, and all things related to the Long Night, and that Howland's mission might be part of this narrative. But we both might well be wrong. It is very much open to debate whether HR is playing the game of thrones or the song of ice and fire or indeed both.

[pobeb]

Well, it's more than just nitpicking. As I point out in my posts, both in this thread and in the HR=HS thread, the sparrows are too poorly armed to be Northmen, the septas are too old to be Mormonts, Howland Reed has his priorities extremely mixed up if he is pretending to be the High Sparrow, the GNC has nothing to gain from this conspiracy etc. The only really good point you have brought up is about Theodan the True, but that's about it.

And I found your arguments unfounded and unobjective. Like, your stance that the septas are "too old" to be Mormonts. When I clearly put this in the OP:

Catelyn: “You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?”

Maege: “She-bears, aye...”

ALL of the Mormont women are She-Bears.

Those 3 septas don't have to be Lyra, Jorelle, and Maege. And to ignore all the connected traits: deceptive strength, stout nature, scowling axe-like features, and the she-bear carving, is just plain silly.

"Lots of septas are rough around the edges like that"

Oh yea? Is that why there's no other group of women, ANYWHERE in the books that shares these exact descriptions? Is that why Cersei specifically notes their deceptive strength? Open up the book and have a look. Do a word search. Google it. There has to be some way to better explain this to you, because I can't seem to be getting through - despite all the highlighting and font raising

You're so quick to jump on the High Septon's descriptions:

"He's got grey hair!" "He's got a lined face!" "Cersei said he was old!"

But then you're so quick to dismiss the similarities in another set of descriptions - the She-Bears and Septas:

"Uh... that doesn't fit cuz... uh... it doesn't."

You go on to assert where Howlands priorities should be. And you present zero text to back your contention - indicative of a weak argument

I don't just explain the movtive to be High Septon, but I support it by presenting a wealth of textual evidence that provides undeniable similaraities, and objective parallels.

There's a pretty big difference.

All this talking in circles...

Maybe I should change the thread title to "The Dance 3.0"

[pobeb]

This will be added to the bottom of the OP, under Avatars of the Seven:

The Sand Snakes are skeptical of Gregor's death:

Obara Sand plucked the skull from him and held it at arm’s length. “What did the Mountain look like? How do we know that this is him? They could have dipped the head in tar. Why strip it to the bone?”

“Tar would have ruined the box,” suggested Lady Nym, as Maester Caleotte scurried off. “No one saw the Mountain die, and no one saw his head removed. That troubles me, I confess, but what could the bitch queen hope to accomplish by deceiving us? If Gregor Clegane is alive, soon or late the truth will out. The man was eight feet tall, there is not another like him in all of Westeros. If any such appears again, Cersei Lannister will be exposed as a liar before all the Seven Kingdoms. She would be an utter fool to risk that. What could she hope to gain?”

What could Cersei hope to gain?

"My queen, your champion stands ready. There is no man in all the Seven Kingdoms who can hope to stand against him."

Her savior was real. Eight feet tall or maybe taller...

"This is Ser Robert Strong.”

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

So, this 8-foot tall monster is lumbering around King's Landing, and who is on their way there?

The time is not yet come for Dorne to openly defy the Iron Throne, so we must needs return Myrcella to her mother, but I will not be accompanying her. That task will be yours, Nymeria. The Lannisters will not like it, no more than they liked it when I sent them Oberyn, but they dare not refuse. We need a voice in council, an ear at court. Be careful, though. King’s Landing is a pit of snakes.”

Lady Nym smiled. “Why, Uncle, I love snakes.”

“And what of me?” asked Tyene.

“Your mother was a septa. Oberyn once told me that she read to you in the cradle from the Seven-Pointed Star. I want you in King’s Landing too, but on the other hill. The Swords and the Stars have been re-formed, and this new High Septon is not the puppet that the others were. Try and get close to him.”

“Why not? White suits my coloring. I look so … pure.”

I think it stands to reason that at least Tyene will participate in the trial. Disobeying Doran, and fighting in a trial by combat against the mountain, are definitely some key parallels I'm seeing.

[WeaselPie]

MLADEN. The age thing boils down to this, can a man of late 30s, which we know HR is, look 10 years older? If the answer is yes then the apparent difference in age is not a deal-breaker. Cersei describes the HS as old because he looks older than her own 35 years, something we already know from his description, but that only confirms that he looks 10-15 years older than her, not that he is 10-15 years older.

If you think HR is minding Ned's bones in the Neck, then HR being in KL does not fit your narrative, not the narrative. Personally, I think the Green Men will feature in the last two books, in connection with Bran, Bloodraven, the CotF, the Others, TPwwP/AAR, and all things related to the Long Night, and that Howland's mission might be part of this narrative. But we both might well be wrong. It is very much open to debate whether HR is playing the game of thrones or the song of ice and fire or indeed both.

Ned Stark himself, mid thirties, only 3-4 years older than Cersei, was beginning to gray "making him look years older." Canon, but I don't have the actual text handy. I know plenty of people in their thirties with gray hair. Most in the modern world dye it, not an option in Westeros unless you dye it purple or blue or somesuch.

We also know Cersei is obsessed with beauty and youth, and is shocked to be confronted with the evidence of her aging in her walk of shame. Not surprising at all that she would think someone with a lined face and gray or graying hair would be "old." She even calls out her own brother who has a few silver hairs, although we are certain he is (a few minutes) younger than she is.

Would also not be surprised that she would consider women of her own age or younger... who have lived rough, worked in the elements, without the benefit of handmaidens to care for their hair and skin and hygiene, who aren't sparking clean in new silk dresses, who have expressions and lines from hardships and rougher climates... to be "old hags."

Cersei is only 3-4 years younger than Robert, yet she remarks how he's aged several times. She could be of an age with Howland, or only slightly younger, but see a graying man in rags, barefoot, without benefit of squires or cupbearers to see to their comfort and appearance.

So Cersei is not a reliable source on actual age. Her perception of the HS is not a dealbreaker because her perception of herself is flawed. Why else would she be so obsessed with the beautiful and younger queen? Her whole walk of shame illustrates her denial about her own aging.

I cannot doubt that GRRM is hiding one of the most anticipated characters ever under our noses.

And to correct someone in the thread, Jojen had brown eyes before they turned green due to whatev greenseeing magic.

[pobeb]

And to correct someone in the thread, Jojen had brown eyes before they turned green due to whatev greenseeing magic.

Whoa, really? Could someone cite that? Not saying it isn't there... my eyes are just tired from all the reading :stillsick:

[WeaselPie]

Whoa, really? Could someone cite that? Not saying it isn't there... my eyes are just tired from all the reading

His eyes turned green after a bout of Greywater Fever as a young boy. Meera tells this story, I don't have the citation handy.

But I was probably wrong to state emphatically they were brown before, checking my notes, it is not specified what color they were before they turned green.

They could have been brown. Or purple. Or gray. But they were absolutely not green at birth.

[Antler's Fury]

ALL of the Mormont women are She-Bears.

There is a difference between "Bear Island women" and the women of House Mormont. The former are just women who live on Bear Island, while the latter are of the ruling House of Bear Island. All of the women of Bear Island are warriors, yes, but there's no proof that all of them are short, stout, chunky, muscular etc as the Mormont women are. We have only seen that these traits applied to women in the Mormont family, and the septas are clearly described as being way too old to be Maege's daughters. Furthermore, the she-bear captive "connection" is also bogus because there have been female characters held captive by non she-bear captors too.

And to ignore all the connected traits: deceptive strength, stout nature, scowling axe-like features, and the she-bear carving, is just plain silly.

There is no connection here. They are strong because, as Cersei points out, they spend hours scrubbing and doing other work in the sept. They are scowling because Cersei is a sinner in need of redemption and this displeases them. And she-bear carving is hardly evidence; the descriptions of the septas are simply meant to show how unpleasant they are as people (annoyed, smell bad, suspicious, etc), not establish a Mormont connection.

You're asserting where Howlands priorities should be.

So are you. Only you are assuming he has some reason to be in KL, a place the Northerners have no reason to care about, and I am assuming that he is willing to do what all other Northern lords are doing, and fight in the North, his home, where we last confirmed his presence.

And you present zero text to back your contention - indicative of a weak argument. I don't just explain the movtive to be High Septon, but I support it by presenting a wealth of textual evidence that provides undeniable similaraities, and objective parallels.

You may have presented a wealth of textual evidence, but as I pointed out, you ignore an even larger body of evidence that thoroughly debunks the theory. You ignore the fact that the vast majority of sparrows are armed with axes and other farm implements that one might expect peasants to fight with, instead of the higher quality weapons and armor that one might find Northern soldiers using. You ignore Howland Reed's myopia in re-forming an order of Seven-worshipping religious fanatics and trying to use them to crown a king who is, at best, a bastard, and at worst a product of a polygamous union, and an adherent of the Old Gods to boot, all of which are things the FM vehemently opposes. You ignore how Howland is apparently willing to put Jon on the Iron Throne even though neither Jon nor any Stark has ever expressed any such desire, and indeed explicitly show their opposition to such a plan. You ignore that Howland didn't send Jon any bodyguards or have him moved to a safe place, or even keep in contact with him, despite having the means to do so, and instead allowed him to stay in a location as dangerous as the Wall where he got assassinated. Oops! See, if Howland had been up North with the responsible Northmen, instead of wasting time playing septon, he might have been able to save Jon, or maybe make an actual difference to something that we know actually matters to the North, like control over Winterfell, punishing Boltons/Freys, etc. You play fast and loose with what exactly it means for Jon to become King, roping in both Robb's will and R+L=J, even though the former is about installing Jon as King of an independent North, and the latter is about installing Jon on the Iron Throne, two mutually exclusive endeavors. You totally dismiss the importance of Rickon to both the Northern lords and LSH, without any explanation whatsoever. You ignore the fact that the sparrows' rancor towards Duskendale is not unexplained at all but very explicitly explained in the text as being rancor towards Brienne and the other hedge knights' refusal to accompany them to KL, and not rancor towards Duskendale per se. You ignore the fact that Meera is not the only character described as tying her hair back behind her head. You ignore the fact that even Cersei sees that this "filthy" High Sparrow wears clean robes. You ignore the fact that even the first corrupt fat High Septon expressed his disgust at the murder of Ned, indicating that the High Sparrow's echoing the sentiment can hardly be seen as the sentiments of a bitter friend. You say that Howland wants to punish Cersei, who is the Stark opponent least complicit in their suffering, but don't explain why he doesn't bother to try to punish Joffrey, Tywin, the Freys, or Roose Bolton, who are much more complicit. You ignore the fact that removing Cersei actually strengthened the monarchy by allowing Kevan to take over and fix things, meaning that Howland's strategy backfired; he would have been completely screwed had Varys not killed Kevan for him.

"He's got grey hair!" "He's got a lined face!" "Cersei said he was old!"

Did you even read my posts? I did not reference any of this. I merely pointed out that the High Sparrow's features are pretty commonplace, exactly what we would expect from an ordinary, pious septon who went around the countryside performing religious services.

[WeaselPie]

No matter if you believe HR is the HS or not. It's more than obvious that the HS isn't afraid of taking down a Queen or two, and consolidating and building his power and following in the process.

That requires motive.

This isn't a simpering pedant, obsequious towards the crown... this is someone brave who dares to defy it with cunning.

You cannot deny that the High Sparrow doesn't give one shit about the current royals. Otherwise, he would anoint Tommen.

The High Sparrow is sneakily doing everything in his power to delay, to deny, to thwart the power of the Throne. I cannot imagine some randomly elevated septon from the sticks being so brazen. What would be the result? More civil war, a loss of position for the random septon, a worsening relationship between the crowns and the faith, resulting in more suffering for the poor and the common folk.

Again, I see plenty of evidence why HR would want to undermine the throne. I see almost none why a random septon would want to upset the peachcart.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I've never been much for the Howland Reed as High Septon theories, but this one has me reconsidering that stance. Well thought-out and presented. Thanks.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I cannot even begin to imagine the time & effort that went into putting this theory together. You draw the lines very neatly & it's an easy read.

I don't know if all you said is true but the parallels are definitely there.

Another amazing read. Please don't get discouraged by the people being rude & saying things like "this theory is so long I should wait for the movie"

You work well with the people who have factual counter arguments to your theories. The banter back & forth between you & the people who are actually putting thought into their response is one of my favorite parts of your threads

:cheers:

[Antler's Fury]

The High Sparrow is sneakily doing everything in his power to delay, to deny, to thwart the power of the Throne. I cannot imagine some randomly elevated septon from the sticks being so brazen. What would be the result? More civil war, a loss of position for the random septon, a worsening relationship between the crowns and the faith, resulting in more suffering for the poor and the common folk.

Again, I see plenty of evidence why HR would want to undermine the throne. I see almost none why a random septon would want to upset the peachcart.

It's not so much that he is trying to thwart the power of the throne, it's that he's trying to adhere to the diktats of the Seven. He denies Cersei's request for a blessing because, unlike his predecessors, he understands that the blessing indicates that the Seven themselves see this king as adhering to their will on earth, and that Tommen has not yet proven that he will. He wants the Crown's debt repaid to rebuild septs that have been destroyed, feed the poor, etc. He wants the FM revived, not to fight the throne but to smite the wicked and protect the people who are suffering from the war. The High Sparrow has done more to alleviate the suffering of the common folk than perhaps any other single person in the entire series. Howland Reed has no reason to care about anything South of the Neck now that the Northern army has been shattered, but a zealous septon has every reason to want to purify a corrupt Faith.

[WeaselPie]

It's not so much that he is trying to thwart the power of the throne, it's that he's trying to adhere to the diktats of the Seven. He denies Cersei's request for a blessing because, unlike his predecessors, he understands that the blessing indicates that the Seven themselves see this king as adhering to their will on earth, and that Tommen has not yet proven that he will. He wants the Crown's debt repaid to rebuild septs that have been destroyed, feed the poor, etc. He wants the FM revived, not to fight the throne but to smite the wicked and protect the people who are suffering from the war. The High Sparrow has done more to alleviate the suffering of the common folk than perhaps any other single person in the entire series. Howland Reed has no reason to care about anything South of the Neck now that the Northern army has been shattered, but a zealous septon has every reason to want to purify a corrupt Faith.

Our perspectives disagree.

[TheHouseHB]

To me the biggest evidence supporting this theory are the three people that Brienne came across the old man in a septons robe = Howland, big woman = Maege Mormont and the man carrying the axe = Galbart Glover?