Antler's Fury Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Our perspectives disagree. There is absolutely no indication that he is trying to weaken the throne merely for the sake of having a weak throne. Indeed, even after the FM is revived, he does nothing against the throne until Margaery and Cersei's arrests, which, again, he carries out because he sees them as going against the rules of the Faith. The fact that he actually agrees to bless Tommen suggests that he has no problem with the current regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 There is absolutely no indication that he is trying to weaken the throne merely for the sake of having a weak throne. Indeed, even after the FM is revived, he does nothing against the throne until Margaery and Cersei's arrests, which, again, he carries out because he sees them as going against the rules of the Faith. The fact that he actually agrees to bless Tommen suggests that he has no problem with the current regime. There is absolutely no indication that he is not trying to weaken the throne. "Mudmen are sneaks, they won't fight like decent folks, they skulk and use poison arrows. You never see them, but they see you. Those who go into the bogs after them get lost and never come out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antler's Fury Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 There is absolutely no indication that he is not trying to weaken the throne. Sure there is. If he wanted to overthrow Tommen, why not just wait for his FM to grow in size, and then assault the Red Keep? Why go through the motions of a trial, especially considering that Cersei might win? He's doing this because this is what his religion demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Sure there is. If he wanted to overthrow Tommen, why not just wait for his FM to grow in size, and then assault the Red Keep? Why go through the motions of a trial? He's doing this because this is what his religion demands. He's going through the motions of a Trial because there is a Trial or two at hand. He hasn't anointed Tommen because "the time is not ripe." Assaulting the Red Keep might actually be coming, but it does nothing to forward the cause at hand where the story last ended. Cersei is going to trial, which the OP points out might be manipulated by the High Septon. Even if Robert Strong is the sole champion for Cersei in a Trial by Combat, he can be easily exposed by the Faith as Gregorstein, thereby damaging Cersei beyond repair. Even more so than rumors of fornication etc. The monster will be there for all to see and witness... no further trial needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antler's Fury Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 He's going through the motions of a Trial because there is a Trial or two at hand. Not if he doesn't want one. If he simply wanted Cersei punished, he would not give her a chance to wriggle free through a trial by combat. Assaulting the Red Keep might actually be coming, but it does nothing to forward the cause at hand where the story last ended. Cersei is going to trial, which the OP points out might be manipulated by the High Septon. Again, why bother with a trial when he could just bide his time, wait for his military strength to grow, and then assault the Red Keep? Why do it after a trial when he could do it instead of a trial? Even if Robert Strong is the sole champion for Cersei in a Trial by Combat, he can be easily exposed by the Faith as Gregorstein, thereby damaging Cersei beyond repair. Even more so than rumors of fornication etc. Not if the Faith doesn't have reason to believe he needs to be inspected. Though it's apparent that people like Kevan, Mace, and Randyll have their suspicions, no one is willing to voice them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Cersei’s declaration for a Trial by Combat will backfire, when the High Septon, disguised as Howland Reed, grants a Trial of Seven instead. Please explain why the High Septon would disguise himself as Howland Reed, who commands zero respect in the South, and why anyone in King's Landing would do anything Howland told them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHouseHB Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Also, maybe a reason why Howland if he is the High Septon would want to crown Jon is because he could know about the Azor Ahai prophecy and connect the dots that Jon is the A Song of Ice and Fire. Howland realizes that the best way to do this would be to have Jon as king so that Jon could unite all the kingdoms for the battle against the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 So much of the debate on these pages hinges on Howland Reed being too young to be the old guy who is the High Septon (or not). But the deal-breaker for me has more to do with Howland and the Mormont women being followers of the Old Gods. How could they rise to such prominent positions in the Faith of the Seven? For them to rise to such powerful positions within the faith they would need to have a massive knowledge of the Faith and they would need to have a history within the organization and know the systems of advancement and politics of the Faith inside out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Not if he doesn't want one. If he simply wanted Cersei punished, he would not give her a chance to wriggle free through a trial by combat. Again, why bother with a trial when he could just bide his time, wait for his military strength to grow, and then assault the Red Keep? Why do it after a trial when he could do it instead of a trial? Not if the Faith doesn't have reason to believe he needs to be inspected. Though it's apparent that people like Kevan, Mace, and Randyll have their suspicions, no one is willing to voice them. Again, our perspectives differ. The High Septon is biding his time, no need for breaking the rules as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 So much of the debate on these pages hinges on Howland Reed being too young to be the old guy who is the High Septon (or not). But the deal-breaker for me has more to do with Howland and the Mormont women being followers of the Old Gods. How could they rise to such prominent positions in the Faith of the Seven? For them to rise to such powerful positions within the faith they would need to have a massive knowledge of the Faith and they would need to have a history within the organization and know the systems of advancement and politics of the Faith inside out. It's an act. There are septs and septons and septas in the North. It's not far-fetched to think Maege, Galbart, and Howland would have a good grasp over the literature. And, this wouldn't be the first time we've seen someone pretend to be something they're not: -Jon (Turncloak) -Jaqen (Pate) -Barristan (Whitebeard) -Arya (Mercy) -Theon (Reek) -Ramsay (Reek) -Tyrion (Hugor) -Sansa (Alayne) -Meero (Bald Assassin) -Sandor (Grave Digger) -Sand Snakes (Septa/Silent Sister) -Sarella (Alleras) -Quentyn (Frog) -Mance (Abel) -Dany (Queen of Meereen) -Freys (Friends) -Varys (Various people) -Jon Connington (Griff) -Aegon (Young Griff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Cersei would not be limited to the 3 KGs, she can find other knights to fight for her. Fossoway was neither a KG nor a member of the royal family, yet he fought for Aerion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Cersei would not be limited to the 3 KGs, she can find other knights to fight for her. Fossoway was neither a KG nor a member of the royal family, yet he fought for Aerion.Yes, but Cersei changed the rules, now only the KG can fight for her. And, this wouldn't be the first time we've seen someone pretend to be something they're not: -Jon (Turncloak) -Jaqen (Pate) -Barristan (Whitebeard) -Arya (Mercy) -Theon (Reek) -Ramsay (Reek) -Tyrion (Hugor) -Sansa (Alayne) -Meero (Bald Assassin) -Sandor (Grave Digger) -Sand Snakes (Septa/Silent Sister) -Sarella (Alleras) -Quentyn (Frog) -Mance (Abel) -Dany (Queen of Meereen) -Freys (Friends) -Varys (Various people) -Jon Connington (Griff) -Aegon (Young Griff) You know what's the difference between all of them and "fake Quentyn"? We've always known who they really were or the mystery didn't last for more than one book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 Cersei would not be limited to the 3 KGs, she can find other knights to fight for her. Fossoway was neither a KG nor a member of the royal family, yet he fought for Aerion. Cersei suggests the conditions that only the knights of a the Kingsguard can defend the queen, to which the High Septon says: “The knights of the Kingsguard have served as the rightful champions of king and queen since the days of Aegon the Conqueror. Crown and Faith speak as one on this.” So, he's agreeing to the conditions, and as such Cersei can only be defended by the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggshell Joe Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 There is a difference between "Bear Island women" and the women of House Mormont. [...] @antler's fury .. Just wanted to say you're doing a good job of keeping this theory honest and keeping the discussion civil. I was quick to love the theory and quicker to defend it when people attacked it hot-headedly but it's fraught with holes and the motive of HR becoming the HS is becoming less clear to me. HR/HS doing all this KL manipulation stuff to eventually announce Jon as the heir to Rhaegar and thus entitled to the IT is fine, except that.. why? What is Jon to the Faith, to the Old Gods, to Howland? HR and Jon have never met, there's no indication Howland has kept tabs on Jon, no indication that Jon wants to be king of the 7K. In fact, it's highly debatable if Jon would even be any good at it. His time as LC show that he's a competent leader but a weak communicator. Howland getting revenge is some motivation except that the guy who condemned his friend to death (joffrey) is dead and the guy who ordered the execution of his friends son and wife (tywin) is also dead. The plight of the people in the Riverlands is sad but it's been sad for years and HR did nothing. Why now? Robb's will? As anter's fury pointed out, HR did nothing to contact Jon nor ensure for his safety, as if Jon doesn't matter in a plot to empower Jon. I'm sure HR will eventually do something cool, but Howland's knowledge and existence would be better served by waiting until the Others arrival is imminent and then informing Jon that he was conceived to be tPtWP, and good luck. Informing everyone in the realm before informing the guy of concern seems silly now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I'm getting to the comments a little late but I have to say this is an extremely well thought our theory. The descriptions and text you have is quite compelling. I don't believe in it one bit but I appreciate all of the effort you put into it. That being said, even if there is a trial of 7, cersei will win because Bob strong can't be defeated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 It's an act. There are septs and septons and septas in the North. It's not far-fetched to think Maege, Galbart, and Howland would have a good grasp over the literature. And, this wouldn't be the first time we've seen someone pretend to be something they're not: -Jon (Turncloak) -Jaqen (Pate) -Barristan (Whitebeard) -Arya (Mercy) -Theon (Reek) -Ramsay (Reek) -Tyrion (Hugor) -Sansa (Alayne) -Meero (Bald Assassin) -Sandor (Grave Digger) -Sand Snakes (Septa/Silent Sister) -Sarella (Alleras) -Quentyn (Frog) -Mance (Abel) -Dany (Queen of Meereen) -Freys (Friends) -Varys (Various people) -Jon Connington (Griff) -Aegon (Young Griff) Thank you for providing a list of characters who have used an alias. The level of deception that you are suggesting Howland and the Mormont women have assumed goes far beyond simply assuming an alias. They would need to convince a large and educated religious organization that they have the right stuff to lead them and that they are more suited to lead them than the many members of the faith that have legitimately served and advanced through the ranks of that organization for their entire lives and careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pobeb Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 They would need to convince a large and educated religious organization that they have the right stuff to lead them and that they are more suited to lead them than the many members of the faith that have legitimately served and advanced through the ranks of that organization for their entire lives and careers. Qyburn’s whisperers claimed that Septon Luceon had been nine votes from elevation when those doors had given way, and the sparrows came pouring into the Great Sept with their leader on their shoulders and their axes in their hands. They don't need to convince anyone, they stormed the sept and just took over. And they've been selling the crowns gifts to feed the poor - so of course they're winning the favor of the common folk. Kevan explains in the prologue how powerful the High Septon is growing - and her certainly hasn't done this through conventional methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willofDorne Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Please explain why the High Septon would disguise himself as Howland Reed, who commands zero respect in the South, and why anyone in King's Landing would do anything Howland told them to. I can't believe you'd doubt a cornerstone of this theory! Ned Stark knew the value of Howland Reed... B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Cersei suggests the conditions that only the knights of a the Kingsguard can defend the queen, to which the High Septon says: So, he's agreeing to the conditions, and as such Cersei can only be defended by the Kingsguard. I don't read it that way. For single combat, which is what the conversation is about, yes, a KG will defend the royal family member, but for a trial of the 7, there is nothing stopping any knight championing. Even if they reached some sort of an agreement, during the official prelude to the trial, thought will be given to precedent, not some conversation between Cersei and the HS. In any case, it would be pretty exciting if Cersei is given a trial of 7, having RS fight Lancel or someone else would be pretty boring IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 In any case, it would be pretty exciting if Cersei is given a trial of 7, having RS fight Lancel or someone else would be pretty boring IMHO. Boring? That's going to be a hell of a fight... short one, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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