How will Jon 'survive' the stabbing V.2

[Pod The Impaler]

Therefore, if Jon is to remain a hero, he cannot become undead, he cannot be resurrected. If he is resurrected, he will have to change into a different (superhuman or subhuman) quality, and his story arc will be over. If Jon dies, it will be the end of his story arc as Jon the hero.

Well, this much I agree with. If it is UnJon or wolfJon, then he might as well be dead. Cross the threshhold of actual death and it will not be Jon anymore.

Even Bran never actually died. Bran was at the threshold but did not cross it. If you read the coma dream over again, he was presented the choice: fly or die (not die and fly).

I've explained a bunch of times why I think Jon will not die from the attack, but is merely badly wounded. He may have his own Bran-like coma & awakening, but I do not think that one who actually crosses death's threshold ever truly returns.

[sj4iy]

Wouldn't he have a layers of clothes under at cloak.

Well, even if he did, it wouldn't have helped him if he were going into shock. Last time I was in shock I couldn't get warm even with 6 warmed blankets on top of me.

[goodandfast]

I already stated this. There is just 1 wound and 1 place that's bleeding for sure (as far as we now). It's the graze/small cut in his nek:

After that, there is a sentence about a wound, but not WHAT wound.

It's known here now that nothing is certain. He might even be barely harmed.

So what strikes me is that he gets nicked...but his "...fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard." That says to me that the blade Wick Whittlestick used was poisoned. They know that Jon is the best swordsman of them all and likely wanted to make sure the job was done right. OR The poison on the blade is not a deadly poison but one that paralyzes or mimics death (a la Romeo and Juliet).

You're right to point out that no blood is mentioned when Marsh stabs him in the gut, but they say "In the cold night air the wound was smoking." To me, that says that--while there's no mention of blood--he's been wounded by Marsh's blade.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why bother with poison when you want to kill someone within the same minute or two?

Was Tyrion going to put poison on the bolt that killed Tywin?

[goodandfast]

Why bother with poison when you want to kill someone within the same minute or two?

Was Tyrion going to put poison on the bolt that killed Tywin?

Because he's a "gangling steward" who "backed away with his hands in the air." He likely didn't think he could match Jon and wanted the upper hand. That, or, it was poisoned with the paralysis poison I was hypothesizing about...

What if the poison slows his heartbeat down such that Jon might take much, much longer to bleed out? Could the steward have learned of the plot and tried to do something to save Jon?

ETA: I just think that it's strange that--following a grazing blow--Jon couldn't draw his sword...I don't think it would be the cold that locked his hands up, he's been far north or the wall and was still able to draw his weapon. I think there has to have been poison on the blade...that, or, Wick hit his carotid and he was bleeding out much faster than the text reveals.

[sj4iy]

Why bother with poison when you want to kill someone within the same minute or two?

Was Tyrion going to put poison on the bolt that killed Tywin?

This. Wick has just tried to open up Jon's throat. Had he not moved, Jon would be dead, poison or no poison. Hell, Jon may end up dead from the other injuries he suffered in the attack. Poison seems unnecessary, and something they could have used secretly on Jon without anyone knowing. They are killing him publicly with daggers...they are making a statement more than anything else.

[goodandfast]

This. Wick has just tried to open up Jon's throat. Had he not moved, Jon would be dead, poison or no poison. Hell, Jon may end up dead from the other injuries he suffered in the attack. Poison seems unnecessary, and something they could have used secretly on Jon without anyone knowing. They are killing him publicly with daggers...they are making a statement more than anything else.

Ok, but to me, this still begs the question: why couldn't Jon feel his fingers almost immediately? I think the only other explanation for that is that Wick got his carotid and he's bleeding more profusely than the text lets on.

ETA: In Cold Gin Hands post below he refers to Chekov's gun, the dramatic principle that writers should avoid including meaningless elements in their stories. I think that the "Chekov's gun" in the Daggers in the Dark scene is Jon not feeling his fingers and Wick backing away with his hands in the air.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

I am a firm believer in the "Beast Mode / Berserker" Jon.

Chekov's ringmail plays a part in this and so does the whereabouts of Ghost but I really like the idea of him standing up and just tearing the co-conspirators et al to bits while a group of Wildlings stand watching.

[sj4iy]

Ok, but to me, this still begs the question: why couldn't Jon feel his fingers almost immediately? I think the only other explanation for that is that Wick got his carotid and he's bleeding more profusely than the text lets on.

ETA: In Cold Gin Hands post below he refers to Chekov's gun, the dramatic principle that writers should avoid including meaningless elements in their stories. I think that the "Chekov's gun" in the Daggers in the Dark scene is Jon not feeling his fingers and Wick backing away with his hands in the air.

His fingers are scarred. He constantly flexes them over and over again to keep them from becoming stiff and clumsy. Maybe he just hadn't done that in a while and caused him to be unable to grab his sword in time.

He's shocked and the shock slows down his reflexes.

There are plenty of explanations that don't involve poisoning. We don't see anything in the text that suggests his carotid artery was cut...in fact, we see something in the text that directly contradicts that assertion by saying that he was 'barely grazed'. In any case, poison doesn't work THAT fast...it has to have enough time to circulate around the body and affect the nerves. There's no way that poison could act that quickly if he had only just been grazed. So the daggers didn't have poison on them.

[goodandfast]

His fingers are scarred. He constantly flexes them over and over again to keep them from becoming stiff and clumsy. Maybe he just hadn't done that in a while and caused him to be unable to grab his sword in time.

He's shocked and the shock slows down his reflexes.

There are plenty of explanations that don't involve poisoning. We don't see anything in the text that suggests his carotid artery was cut...in fact, we see something in the text that directly contradicts that assertion by saying that he was 'barely grazed'. In any case, poison doesn't work THAT fast...it has to have enough time to circulate around the body and affect the nerves. There's no way that poison could act that quickly if he had only just been grazed. So the daggers didn't have poison on them.

Good point about the scarred hand. If it's shock, then it would be as a result of extremely low blood pressure: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000039.htm In that case, then he would have to be bleeding heavily. I don't think that Jon's character is the type to have that happen to him and not be slammed with adrenaline. To me, the adrenaline would cut through the stiff fingers, unless something was actively working against it. Ie. a strong poison. What's to say that there isn't a poison that acts that quickly once it hits the blood stream?

Medically speaking, all of the blood in the average body pumps from the heart, through the body and back to the heart in about a minute or less. Jon's adrenaline would be pumping given the state of affairs with Wun Wun--a high anxiety situation--and so, even being nicked, the poison could enter the blood stream where the heart would be pumping much faster than normal. I've looked through the different poisons in the books and I can't identify one that would work, but that doesn't mean that such a poison cannot exist.

Also, I'm not saying all of the daggers. Just Wick's.

[sj4iy]

Good point about the scarred hand. If it's shock, then it would be as a result of extremely low blood pressure: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000039.htm In that case, then he would have to be bleeding heavily. I don't think that Jon's character is the type to have that happen to him and not be slammed with adrenaline. To me, the adrenaline would cut through the stiff fingers, unless something was actively working against it. Ie. a strong poison. What's to say that there isn't a poison that acts that quickly once it hits the blood stream?

Medically speaking, all of the blood in the average body pumps from the heart, through the body and back to the heart in about a minute or less. Jon's adrenaline would be pumping given the state of affairs with Wun Wun--a high anxiety situation--and so, even being nicked, the poison could enter the blood stream where the heart would be pumping much faster than normal. I've looked through the different poisons in the books and I can't identify one that would work, but that doesn't mean that such a poison cannot exist.

Also, I'm not saying all of the daggers. Just Wick's.

I meant "shock" as in "stunned that his men are trying to kill him" shock, not "loss of blood pressure" shock XD Actually, I'm very well acquainted with the latter as I have a disease that can cause sudden and dangerous drops in blood pressure. But there's nothing to indicate that he was suffering from the medical version of shock at that point...he simply couldn't grasp his sword in time.

[goodandfast]

I meant "shock" as in "stunned that his men are trying to kill him" shock, not "loss of blood pressure" shock XD Actually, I'm very well acquainted with the latter as I have a disease that can cause sudden and dangerous drops in blood pressure. But there's nothing to indicate that he was suffering from the medical version of shock at that point...he simply couldn't grasp his sword in time.

I'm with you, he was definitely shocked that his men were turning on him, but as soon as he realized what was going on and disarmed Wick, he went to draw his sword but couldn't because his fingers were stiff and clumsy--that could be because of the scarring...but I'm offering an alternative: what if he was poisoned? What kind of implications would that have? Who might want to poison him and why?

It's been awhile since ADWD was released...a lot of the time the same things are rehashed over and over...I haven't seen anyone suggest it and I haven't seen definitive proof that it's NOT a possibility.

[Little Member]

When a sentence in quotes does not end the sentence, it gets seperated by a comma, regardless of what proper punctuation it deserves. "His story has holes," I said. ENG101.

If this was a well rehearsed, expertly trained assassination attempt, The person delivering the back blow must be aware the front blow would at least double over if not drop the target. I'm sure whoever delivered the third blow would also been coached to wait and see if the target drops or just doubles over. It doesn't take much time to adjust one's angle of thrust for the situation.

It does seem very convenient that such a distraction occurs. I think the knight who trained them may have been Ser Patrek. He might have seriously misjudged the reaction of Wun Wun when he struck him to pick a fight.

But all this is silly academic argument.

The point should be what happens next. I think we all can agree that a big battle is going to erupt at CB. The only two people who thought letting the wildlings through the wall was a good idea are presumed dead.

Now some people had some good ideas about this "bastard" letter. In it, Ramsay admits Arya is not at WF. That can't be what motivates Jon to want to go there. If someone was trying to lure him south, just lie and say he has his sister.

Who's credit is hurt by the proof of Mance being alive? Certainly not Jon. It was never his plan to kill Mance to break the spirit of the wildlings. Ramsay would want The queen and Shireen for all the same reasons Tywin wanted Elia and her children dead. He'd want Val and the babe for the same reasons Stannis wanted them- hostages to assure wildling loyalty. He'd probably want the red witch after witnessing her magic transform Mance. We all know why he'd want his beloved Reek.

This is what I can't wrap my head around. If this was written by someone at CB, who the heck would even know who Reek is? Would Jon know? The only thing this letter could do is foment a wildling revolt at the wall and cause an army of wildlings to move upon WF to free Mance.

Did the slap that Ramsay basically stating, "My daddy cared enough to get the king to legitimize me, and your daddy didn't even though he was Robert's closest friend," sting Jon enough, or was it the signing of the letter, "trueborn Lord of Winterfell," that put him over the edge?

He was tempted once before to take Stannis offer to become a trueborn and rule over Winterfell.

Was it Ramsay's horrific cruelty making a cloak out of the spearwives' skin? Did he just see that something has to be done to stop this monster?

Let's look at it from the point of view that there is serious racism going on against the freefolk. Everyone around Jon who's not freefolk want nothing to do with them. They treat them harshly, rape the women. When he makes plans to save them, his brothers tell him they are not worth it.

Then, the worst form of debasement, being skinned like some rabbit. Maybe Jon just doesn't realize Ramsay views everyone like that, not just freefolk. But it's the trigger nonetheless.

This is why he specifically wants the freefolk to follow him to WF- to rise up and defend their honor.

Not so much that Jon would let a slight tempt him from his duty at the Wall, he has to turn it into an honor thing so they'd get it.

Besides, Ramsay is every bit as bad as the monsters they perceive the Others to be. Possibly worse. To Jon he's not just defending his little sis, but all humanity. So, he's not really abandoning his oath.

So, now Jon is at a crossroads. It's kind of obvious he can't stay at CB. Will he move north, to meet Coldhands, Bran, and Bloodraven or move south to finish the fight he had started with Ramsay?

What will happen once Theon reaches the Wall? Will Jon be there? Jon believe's Theon killed his brothers. Once a man takes the black, he is absolved of all previous crimes. Will Jon let Theon take the black?

I surmise Jon won't be there when Theon shows up. Theon will take the black before Jon returns to the Wall. He will have to struggle with not being able to bring Theon to justice for his crimes.

I seriously believe that Jon will head north with Mel and maybe a few freefolk. He will meet Coldhands. Coldhands will lead them to Bran. Bran will help him find some magical items and he will learn about the Others.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Too many UnJon theories out there.

Be original.

[sj4iy]

When a sentence in quotes does not end the sentence, it gets seperated by a comma, regardless of what proper punctuation it deserves. "His story has holes," I said. ENG101.

If this was a well rehearsed, expertly trained assassination attempt, The person delivering the back blow must be aware the front blow would at least double over if not drop the target. I'm sure whoever delivered the third blow would also been coached to wait and see if the target drops or just doubles over. It doesn't take much time to adjust one's angle of thrust for the situation.

It does seem very convenient that such a distraction occurs. I think the knight who trained them may have been Ser Patrek. He might have seriously misjudged the reaction of Wun Wun when he struck him to pick a fight.

But all this is silly academic argument.

The point should be what happens next. I think we all can agree that a big battle is going to erupt at CB. The only two people who thought letting the wildlings through the wall was a good idea are presumed dead.

Now some people had some good ideas about this "bastard" letter. In it, Ramsay admits Arya is not at WF. That can't be what motivates Jon to want to go there. If someone was trying to lure him south, just lie and say he has his sister.

Who's credit is hurt by the proof of Mance being alive? Certainly not Jon. It was never his plan to kill Mance to break the spirit of the wildlings. Ramsay would want The queen and Shireen for all the same reasons Tywin wanted Elia and her children dead. He'd want Val and the babe for the same reasons Stannis wanted them- hostages to assure wildling loyalty. He'd probably want the red witch after witnessing her magic transform Mance. We all know why he'd want his beloved Reek.

This is what I can't wrap my head around. If this was written by someone at CB, who the heck would even know who Reek is? Would Jon know? The only thing this letter could do is foment a wildling revolt at the wall and cause an army of wildlings to move upon WF to free Mance.

Did the slap that Ramsay basically stating, "My daddy cared enough to get the king to legitimize me, and your daddy didn't even though he was Robert's closest friend," sting Jon enough, or was it the signing of the letter, "trueborn Lord of Winterfell," that put him over the edge?

He was tempted once before to take Stannis offer to become a trueborn and rule over Winterfell.

Was it Ramsay's horrific cruelty making a cloak out of the spearwives' skin? Did he just see that something has to be done to stop this monster?

Let's look at it from the point of view that there is serious racism going on against the freefolk. Everyone around Jon who's not freefolk want nothing to do with them. They treat them harshly, rape the women. When he makes plans to save them, his brothers tell him they are not worth it.

Then, the worst form of debasement, being skinned like some rabbit. Maybe Jon just doesn't realize Ramsay views everyone like that, not just freefolk. But it's the trigger nonetheless.

This is why he specifically wants the freefolk to follow him to WF- to rise up and defend their honor.

Not so much that Jon would let a slight tempt him from his duty at the Wall, he has to turn it into an honor thing so they'd get it.

Besides, Ramsay is every bit as bad as the monsters they perceive the Others to be. Possibly worse. To Jon he's not just defending his little sis, but all humanity. So, he's not really abandoning his oath.

So, now Jon is at a crossroads. It's kind of obvious he can't stay at CB. Will he move north, to meet Coldhands, Bran, and Bloodraven or move south to finish the fight he had started with Ramsay?

What will happen once Theon reaches the Wall? Will Jon be there? Jon believe's Theon killed his brothers. Once a man takes the black, he is absolved of all previous crimes. Will Jon let Theon take the black?

I surmise Jon won't be there when Theon shows up. Theon will take the black before Jon returns to the Wall. He will have to struggle with not being able to bring Theon to justice for his crimes.

I seriously believe that Jon will head north with Mel and maybe a few freefolk. He will meet Coldhands. Coldhands will lead them to Bran. Bran will help him find some magical items and he will learn about the Others.

Who says Theon will survive long enough to make it to the Wall?

[The Kinkslayer]

I subscribe to the 'this but a flesh wound' theory, lord Snow is the black knight and cannot be killed.

[Attitude]

Yes, but he seems to be more wounded than just a "scratch" as he seems to pass out. But I agree that he is not going to become a zombie (either Wight version or UnJon version) for reasons more having to do with his story arc than anything else. But feeling cold and not feeling a 4th stab suggests passing out more than anything else.

The thing is, maybe GRRM wants to make us think that way. I think he had a great deal of time on placing the right words here. He didn't want to lie, but he clearly is hiding some info. If he wanted to show us that Jon definitly was passing out/passed out at the end, then he would have written this part in a different way.

Ps. Feeling cold can be taken literally; His face is in the snow. Not feelign the 4th stab; there is no 4th stab. It may be far stretched, but not unlikely (IMO).

Gotcha. I agree that the cold could mean shock or just simply feeling the snow that he fell in. It doesn't necessarily mean death at this point.

Neither does it necessarliy mean passing out.

Yes. That is what I was trying to suggest. The cold implies that he went into shock and passed out from blood loss--not that he died. But that also means he wounds were more serious than just the initial "scratch."

If you assume he is passing out, then you can assume his wounds are more serious (and that he is seriously losing blood). But Jon passing out isn't 100% clear. No matter how you put it, as far as we know at the end of that chapter, Jon is alive and conscious. (He was still felling cold).

So what strikes me is that he gets nicked...but his "...fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard." That says to me that the blade Wick Whittlestick used was poisoned. They know that Jon is the best swordsman of them all and likely wanted to make sure the job was done right. OR The poison on the blade is not a deadly poison but one that paralyzes or mimics death (a la Romeo and Juliet).

You're right to point out that no blood is mentioned when Marsh stabs him in the gut, but they say "In the cold night air the wound was smoking." To me, that says that--while there's no mention of blood--he's been wounded by Marsh's blade.

Maybe, maybe not. Just as you say: 'To me, that says ....' In what way you interpreted the sentence doesn't matter. What matter is WHAT wound was GRRM talking about. Was if the first or the (presumed) one in his belly? We don't know.

Ok, but to me, this still begs the question: why couldn't Jon feel his fingers almost immediately? I think the only other explanation for that is that Wick got his carotid and he's bleeding more profusely than the text lets on.

ETA: In Cold Gin Hands post below he refers to Chekov's gun, the dramatic principle that writers should avoid including meaningless elements in their stories. I think that the "Chekov's gun" in the Daggers in the Dark scene is Jon not feeling his fingers and Wick backing away with his hands in the air.

I don't have an explanation about his fingers to be honest, but as sj4iy says; he was wounded before and Jon's hands were stiff. It's weird that it's coming back just at THIS point, but not unlikely. It's an easy explanation for GRRM, that's for sure.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

Just like Bran survived his fall.

[Iceaxe]

If I see unJon or GhostJon come true I might just give TWOW to R'hllor and stop caring. :bang:

[goodandfast]

I don't mean for my poison theory to be an UnJon or GhostJon theory. Rather, it could provide an opportunity for him to be presumed dead, but able to be saved. Say Wick, a steward, joined in on the plot to kill Jon...but was afraid that he would screw up and be over-matched. He could have, in an attempt to ensure his success and his own safety, poisoned his blade with something paralysis-inducing. The side effect of a paralysis-inducing poison could be to slow down Jon's heart rate in such a way that would incapacitate him, but also slow his bleeding. This gives him time to receive medical attention...likely from Melissandre.