How will Jon 'survive' the stabbing V.2

[Squab]

He has to survive so he can get enough titles to challenge dany.

Jon Snow, warg, king in the north, azor ahai, the prince that was promised and nights king.

Not close enough yet but he'll get more

[Ghost's Shadow]

You just lost because you cannot even spell his name.

[gamegeknee]

You wish... Healing might take a week or two, sure, but to say that he won't have any POV? Lol.

Mel btw isn't even a good POV. All she does is stare in her flames, dream of Stannis for some reason, and that's it. She's not a leader, not a fighter, not someone who will pick up a sword against the Others. She might have a POV or 2, 3, but too much exposure to her means she isn't mysterious any more and that's something she should stay.

I think you're under estimating Mel. I think she will play a huge role in the fight against the Others. Remember at the battle of the wall when she killed Orell's eagle with fire magic?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Wow, an eagle! I'm baffled at her ability.

Hey, remember when she was happy that Jon gave the order to kill Rattleshirt/Mance because she had issues holding the glamour intact?

It's well known Mel puts a spin to things she sees in her fires so that it makes her look good to others, even if she knows she's wrong (leeches, tower, fArya, Lightbringer).

Of course she could have done much good at the Battle of the Blackwater! She could have won that battle, if only Stannis had allowed her to be by his side. Right. Easy to say that after it is done. Makes you look so superior.

Mel can do things, but not as many things as some people might believe, or rather as many things as she makes people believe she can do. She made a note to herself she's almost out of powders. Why does she even need those if she's so fantastic of her own?

[bemused]

Hi, guys..

First of all , thanks, Attitude for including my post from the other thread (#3 on page 1).

I wanted to mention that just the other night, I also ran across the following, from just a couple of chapters earlier , "The Kingbreaker" , when Barristan goes to arrest Hizdhar and has to duel Khrazz...

Selmy blocked the cuts at his head and let his armor stop the rest, whilst his own blade opened

the pit fighter’s cheek from ear to mouth, then traced a raw red gash across his chest. Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder.

This reinforces my thinking that while Jon is down, he's most definitely not out. I don't think he's unconscious , just dazed, as he was before he went all berserker on Iron Emmett , and momentarily winded. We've been shown that Jon can be shocked into battle rage and that his anger can trigger an unnatural strength ( yanking the spear buried in frozen ground out with one motion ). He's someone we already know has some "wildness" in him. The more often I look at the scene, the more convinced I become that it will manifest here.

Also, just picking up on some points made a couple of pages ago ..We can differ as to whether Jon was working on the mail shirt or not, but there's no denying that our attention was drawn to it just before Jon tells Sam to wear more protection against "bleeding for the watch" ( that's what the exchange over the raven pecking Sam boils down to). So, whoever made it, I feel sure he's wearing mail. It's been set up, so it won't be "deus ex machina" when it's revealed. ( So I don't see how anyone could feel "cheated")

ETA: I was interrupted, but I'll just hop back in.. In response to Little Member.. I must echo Julia H by saying that I can't believe GRRM's purpose is to make Jon accept R'hllor ... and add that I'm simply amazed that Mel seems to have made so many converts among readers.

Jon is a major character , and GRRm has been building the feeling that there's something unique about him .. something in the essence of his being , that makes him important to the overall story.

From what we see of R'hllorist fire magic, whether healing or resurrecting , or creating shadow babies.. something about the person's essence is changed or diminshed in the process.(Fire consumes) ... Victarion's arm is not what we would call "healed", it's unnaturally altered. Beric and Cat are no longer fully themselves and Stannis has had his life force drained to dangerous levels .. so that Mel feels she can't risk making another shadow baby with him.

Her whole purpose in getting Jon to trust her is so that she can use him, instead . I think we should all be crying "Avert! Avert!"

[Ghost's Shadow]

About the chain mail... It's not because there's a half one in Jon's quarters that he can't have sought out a full one later, right?

Sam killed his obsidian dagger on Small Paul's chain mail, so the Watch has more of them besides the half one. ;)

[Ratbane]

Jon can't die, or at least not at this point in the story. If he is at the point of death Melisandre will save him much as Moqorro healed Victorian. I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but Jon is actually the key character in the entire story. He will recover and I don't think it will be by bringing him back from the dead.

I take it as a given that he is indeed R+L=J. But I don't think the real significance of this is for him to be a contender to be king of Westeros. The Targ blood gives him an affinity for dragons. Combine this with the fact that he is a skinchanger of great but unpracticed power. This may mean he is the only skinchanger in existence who could "take over" a dragon.

I think this is what its leading up to. With the Others come with their army of zombies there's not a whole lot human armies will be able to do to resist them. The Song of Ice and Fire will be the sound of the clash of the Others against the dragons. I imagine at some point Dany will die or her means to control the dragons (such as the DragonHorn) will be destroyed and doom will be close at hand. Jon will then save the day by taking over a dragon and burning the armies of Ice.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Jon can't die, or at least not at this point in the story. If he is at the point of death Melisandre will save him much as Moqorro healed Victorian. I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but Jon is actually the key character in the entire story. He will recover and I don't think it will be by bringing him back from the dead.

I take it as a given that he is indeed R+L=J. But I don't think the real significance of this is for him to be a contender to be king of Westeros. The Targ blood gives him an affinity for dragons. Combine this with the fact that he is a skinchanger of great but unpracticed power. This may mean he is the only skinchanger in existence who could "take over" a dragon.

I think this is what its leading up to. With the Others come with their army of zombies there's not a whole lot human armies will be able to do to resist them. The Song of Ice and Fire will be the sound of the clash of the Others against the dragons. I imagine at some point Dany will die or her means to control the dragons (such as the DragonHorn) will be destroyed and doom will be close at hand. Jon will then save the day by taking over a dragon and burning the armies of Ice.

Welcome to the boards.

I agree 100% that Jon is the main character-- he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, after all. It is preposterous to think that Jon is dead and gone from the story, and only a little less preposterous to think that Jon will die and come back as UnJon. I don't know if Mel will be the one to save him, but he will not die (or if he does, he will be brought back in a unique way in which he is the "real" Jon and not UnJon).

The rest of your speculation is quite interesting, and not theories I have seen before (in particular about Dany losing control and Jon warging a dragon--any dragon warging theories seem to revolve around Bran). I am not sure I am entirely convinced, but they are potentially plausible.

[bemused]

About the chain mail... It's not because there's a half one in Jon's quarters that he can't have sought out a full one later, right?

Sam killed his obsidian dagger on Small Paul's chain mail, so the Watch has more of them besides the half one. ;)

Exactly !

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

'he never felt the fourth knife, on the cold...'

'...dark rage building in him as he rolled to his back and lifted Longclaw in time to deflect the fourth knife before Wun Wun tore the attacker limb from limb.'

[sj4iy]

'he never felt the fourth knife, on the cold...'

'...dark rage building in him as he rolled to his back and lifted Longclaw in time to deflect the fourth knife before Wun Wun tore the attacker limb from limb.'

...if only XD

[Ghost's Shadow]

You should publish it. :P

[Attitude]

'he never felt the fourth knife, on the cold...'

'...dark rage building in him as he rolled to his back and lifted Longclaw in time to deflect the fourth knife before Wun Wun tore the attacker limb from limb.'

That would be awesome!

[storm.131]

Several major characters have died already, why not Jon? GRRM can kill off anyone he likes.

[sj4iy]

Several major characters have died already, why not Jon? GRRM can kill off anyone he likes.

He can, but that doesn't follow that it's always a good idea.

Basically, there's too much story left around Jon for him to (permanently) die at this point. That's what most people feel.

In any case, Martin said Jon would learn who his mother is. He hasn't, therefore, he can't be dead yet.

[Ser Eric]

I think Jon will simply go into a coma like state like Bran did in GoT. Bloodraven (or Bran) will then enter his dreams telling him about R+L=J and tell/show him why he has to live and how he is Azor Azai/PtwP.

[Attitude]

Several major characters have died already, why not Jon? GRRM can kill off anyone he likes.

Well, which ones then?

And in GRRM's own words; just one.

If you look at the major POV's + how I gave them some extra info:

Eddard Stark (Dead)

Catelyn Stark (Died, but reborn)

Daenerys Stormborn (Several near death experiences)

Tyrion Lannister (Escaped death at least twice)

Jon Snow (Several near death experiences, at this point unknown wether alive/dead)

Bran Stark (Was presumed dead)

Sansa Stark (Escaped rape and probably death)

Arya Stark (Had some tricky situations, almost reveals and Syrio saved her from death/capture)

Theon Greyjoy (Tortured and could’ve been killed with ease)

Davos Seaworth (Spared by Stannis in the first place, not really in a good position now, escaped death at least once)

Jaime Lannister (Lost his hand and was lucky none of the Starks killed him when he was captured + lucky when released)

Samwell Tarley (Killed a WW)

Cersei Lannister

Brienne of Tarth (Escaped hanging by UnCat)

If you look at this list, you see that only one has died: Ned. (Even the minor POV’s only a couple have died).

He only kills a lot of likable characters and characters: Oberyn, Robb (and his wolf), Ned, Drogo, Tywin (for some).

If you look at it in an other way: Many major characters have escaped death (several times). Tyrion twice, Dany a couple of times (not taking the food, getting from the tower of the undying...)

[UnmaskedLurker]

[snip]

If you look at this list, you see that only one has died: Ned. (Even the minor POV’s only a couple have died).

He only kills a lot of likable characters and characters: Oberyn, Robb (and his wolf), Ned, Drogo, Tywin (for some).

If you look at it in an other way: Many major characters have escaped death (several times). Tyrion twice, Dany a couple of times (not taking the food, getting from the tower of the undying...)

I agree 100% with this analysis. People act like GRRM just kills off major characters left and right--he really doesn't. There are central characters that are intended to make it to the end because they have critical parts to play in the endgame. I suspect these main characters are Jon, Dany and Tyrion, as the prime three, and the Stark children, Bran, Sansa and Arya, as the supporting three. I highly doubt any of these six will die before the endgame (although one or more could die in the final battle).

People also ignore that each of the deaths that have occurred really served a purpose in pushing the narrative forward. Could Jon's death push the narrative forward at this point? Maybe, but I doubt it. The North is a critical area of battle. Who else is in the North that is a major character that could take over the action? Stannis? I don't think so--he is not even a POV character. Jon is needed to be the anchor for the action in the North. While GRRM is free to write whatever story he wants to write--in predicting what will happen next in the story, it is important to try to figure out what story GRRM actually is telling. It is 100% clear to me that a major part of the story--perhaps the prime element of the story--is the development of Jon Snow--he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, after all (as I keep saying over and over again--probably to the annoyance of some).

And as I and others have also said before--GRRM has told us that Jon will find out who his mother is--dead people cannot find out anything--ergo, Jon is (or will be) alive.

[Attitude]

(1) I agree 100% with this analysis. People act like GRRM just kills off major characters left and right--he really doesn't. There are central characters that are intended to make it to the end because they have critical parts to play in the endgame. I suspect these main characters are Jon, Dany and Tyrion, as the prime three, and the Stark children, Bran, Sansa and Arya, as the supporting three. I highly doubt any of these six will die before the endgame (although one or more could die in the final battle).

(2) People also ignore that each of the deaths that have occurred really served a purpose in pushing the narrative forward. Could Jon's death push the narrative forward at this point? Maybe, but I doubt it. The North is a critical area of battle. Who else is in the North that is a major character that could take over the action? Stannis? I don't think so--he is not even a POV character. Jon is needed to be the anchor for the action in the North. While GRRM is free to write whatever story he wants to write--in predicting what will happen next in the story, it is important to try to figure out what story GRRM actually is telling. It is 100% clear to me that a major part of the story--perhaps the prime element of the story--is the development of Jon Snow--he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, after all (as I keep saying over and over again--probably to the annoyance of some).

And as I and others have also said before--GRRM has told us that Jon will find out who his mother is--dead people cannot find out anything--ergo, Jon is (or will be) alive.

(1) Agreed on Tyrion, Dany and Jon, so far they are the most important characters. The game in the north, the game of the throne and the game of the 'reightful' heir. Everything in the books that we read has to do something with these 3 major story lines. If bran, arya and sansa are the supporting ones, I don't 100% agree (at this point, sansa can't make a difference IMO, or at least she can't make the choice.. I do see her take over winterfel eventually though).

(2) I agree in such a way that I say: the (failed) assassination on Jon is going to play a role in his character's development. Wether he will die and revive or suvive, it will play a (major) role IMO.

[UnmaskedLurker]

(1) Agreed on Tyrion, Dany and Jon, so far they are the most important characters. The game in the north, the game of the throne and the game of the 'reightful' heir. Everything in the books that we read has to do something with these 3 major story lines. If bran, arya and sansa are the supporting ones, I don't 100% agree (at this point, sansa can't make a difference IMO, or at least she can't make the choice.. I do see her take over winterfel eventually though).

(2) I agree in such a way that I say: the (failed) assassination on Jon is going to play a role in his character's development. Wether he will die and revive or suvive, it will play a (major) role IMO.

Here are my reactions:

(1) Sansa is learning at the feet of LF--the student will surpass the master. I think once she takes out LF, she will become a significant player in some respect. She is not learning how to manipulate the world for no greater purpose in the story.

(2) We are basically in agreement on this issue. I would add, however, that if Jon does "die" and is revived, it cannot be as UnJon. There might be some unique circumstance, perhaps explained by his warging into Ghost while his body is dead and some other unique magical event, that allows the full and "real" Jon to be revived. But it will not be a simple revival like Beric or UnCat. That sort of revival does not work for the story. Jon cannot be less of himself--he has to be the complete and original Jon. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind, however, that the events surrounding his "revival" or "survival" will have an impact on the story.