How will Jon 'survive' the stabbing V.2

[Ghost's Shadow]

You wish... Healing might take a week or two, sure, but to say that he won't have any POV? Lol.

Mel btw isn't even a good POV. All she does is stare in her flames, dream of Stannis for some reason, and that's it. She's not a leader, not a fighter, not someone who will pick up a sword against the Others. She might have a POV or 2, 3, but too much exposure to her means she isn't mysterious any more and that's something she should stay.

[KINGpanther]

You wish... Healing might take a week or two, sure, but to say that he won't have any POV? Lol.

Mel btw isn't even a good POV. All she does is stare in her flames, dream of Stannis for some reason, and that's it. She's not a leader, not a fighter, not someone who will pick up a sword against the Others. She might have a POV or 2, 3, but too much exposure to her means she isn't mysterious any more and that's something she should stay.

OK a different POV comes to the Wall then but to make the stabbing a big deal Jon should be laid up for a longtime. Maybe Jon will have some chapters warged in Ghost or some dreams with Bran.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Most likely Bran dreams.

[UtherSnow]

Bowen Marsh is the most clever guy at Castle Black. He's found a way to re-take the role of Lord Commander. Also, he's given Jon an exit to head off to join Stannis, leading a force of primarily (almost certainly now) comprised of Wildlings.

I don't see that GRRM made a typing error, or that it was missed by a proof reader, or not questioned by an editor.

Hasn't anyone had the wind knocked out of them? How hard was the punch (or kick)? The body's natural reaction is to curl, and where it's one heck of a strike, falling to your knees would be the next motion in the reaction.

(i) Bowan punches Jon. It's there in the book's text. Why say 'punch' had Bowan really stabbed Jon?

(ii) Bowan's dagger stays where he buried it. Again, its in the book's text. Why avoid saying Bowan stabbed Jon?

(iii) When Jon wrenches the blade free, shouldn't there be traces of blood on it? Why doesn't it say blood-stained dagger?

(iv) Why does the wound smoke? Where's the blood from the wound?

(v) When you've been seriously winded, all you can manage is a whisper. It's impossible to shout for help or your Mum.

Why didn't the third attacker go for the kill? He's behind Jon. What's to stop him slicing Jon's throat?

Bowan is brilliant! How masterful was that? Decisive. Spontaneous. Swift. If I was Bowan, my next move would be to throw Jon's carcass to the Thenn.... Yum-Yum! Roast tonight, lads! I'd also declare nothing more be said about whoever his name was. Bowan saves NW!

Meanwhile, Jon 'miraculously' recovers on his way to Winterfell.

[Julia H.]

Yeah I agree on this. If it's dead it can be reanimated.

Wait, this DID happen right? I know it from the show for sure, but I am pretty sure it happens in the books too. They find some rangers and take them to the south side of the wall. Then (one or two of them?) come back to life and tries to kill Mormont. I am not losing my mind am I? I'm pretty sure this happened, can't remember the names of the rangers though.

The dead rangers had blue eyes before they were dragged to the south side of the Wall.

Dywen:

"And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted"...

Sam also noticed suspicious things about them.

I think these rangers were "inactive" wights when they were taken to the other side of the Wall. At least it is clear that something had happened to them before the NW found them.

[Little Member]

Where did this come from? All I stated was that wights don't have to have been killed by the Others in order to be controlled by them.

Also, I'm very good at counting. But I only use the numbers we have instead of jumping to conclusions about numbers we don't.

1. FACT: We don't know the extent of Jon's injuries. He's an unreliable narrator who can't tell us precisely what is happening to him. He can only feel where he's being hit, but he can't tell us more than that. He could be anywhere from moderately injured to seriously injured to mortally injured. I don't need the definition of 'took'...I know what it means. And it doesn't mean anything but Jon felt a knife to the back. We don't know if it was a puncture wound, a deep puncture wound or what...it's too vague to make any sort of determination as to the severity of the injury.

2. FACT: We have no idea whether Melisandre even has the ability to resurrect people in the first place. We know Thoros did it for one person many times, but he is the ONLY person we have see do such a thing. There's no evidence that any other Red Priest or Priestess can do what Thoros did...and even he couldn't bring Beric back completely. MMD didn't bring Drogo back to life because he was not dead in the first place. Melisandre is at the Wall for a reason, of course. But we can only speculate as to what that reason might be at this point. Moqorro did not bring Victarion back to life, either. We've never seen Melisandre heal anyone or anything before.

Now, my opinions. I never suggested that Jon 'only had a flesh wound'...I think that if he survives, he is gravely injured an on the point of death, much like Bran was. I won't rule out Jon's death, either...but if he dies, I don't think that Melisandre will bring him back. She has no reason TO bring him back at this point. She might do it if she thought he was AAR, but she doesn't from what we can see. I don't see anyone putting his body in an ice cell, because the ice cells are difficult to get to as we plainly see from the text. If Jon has died, they will burn his body right away. And if they burn his body right away, I think it is more likely that we will see a Dany-type, one time magic that could be regarded as a 'miracle' rather than Melisandre sacrificing anyone at all to save Jon. Melisandre will do something, I'm sure. But I don't think we have enough information to really hazard an educated guess, or to say "I can't help you if you can't put the pieces together". The pieces are there but have no real context at this point. We need more information.

I'm sorry. I just used your quote as a soapbox. I did not mean to direct my post at you. When making predictions about a story, I look it as a construct. I ask myself: what tools does the author have to work with and what is the general goal of the story. I was just stating the tools the author has and the general goal: AKA the need to trust Mel and R'hllor in the near future. If GRRM did not need to have Mel perform some magic on Jon(heal/ressurect), Jon would not have been attacked, at least not near enough to Mel. So, to get Jon to trust Mel, and have some faith in the existence of the fire god, Jon's life would have to be in mortal danger and she'd have to rescue him using her power(which comes from r'hllor)

So, GRRM had to come up with some reason Jon's life may be in peril. The freefolk are on his side now, and they are nowhere near ready to battle Others. So, what would be the next plausible? Ramsay? It makes little sense anyone should want to attack the NW. It'd have to be someone with a personal grudge within Castle Black. You might say, why Bowen Marsh? Bowen sent a letter to the 5 kings requesting more men on the Wall prior to the Wildling Assualt. Most important was the Hand's response, " There is only one true king, the rest are imposters. You'd best remember that. You'll get no more men until you place Janos Slynt as Lord Commander." Jon dashed all hopes of reconciling with KL when he embraced Stannis and removed Janos Slynt's head. Cersei may have also made it clear that no more aid would come until the bastard was dead. Now Jon is the best fighter. If this is to work, they need a distraction. How about a rampaging giant? This open's the door to all kinds of possibilities. Now, for folks who say Mel won't be performing any magic on Jon, what was GRRM's motivation for the attack? What did he have in mind if not something to do with Mel? You can't think of these as people. They live in a controlled universe where everything that is said and done has a purpose. Where a character may not exist for 90% of the story, then the author may decide, uh-oh I need a character right here. Now he has to make it feasible that character has reason to be there, so now he has to go back and rewrite the book and weave that new character in with the other characters, create new stories for this character and change things around. So, ask yourself: where is GRRM going with Jon? Would it be necessary for him to have the power of the god of light? Does he have time to go off and become a priest of this new god? So where does he find a priest? How can he trust this priest and this strange god? How does he break free from the situation he bound himself in? The real question should be: will Jon travel south or north? For this will dictate how Jon survives the attack. For each direction has its' own set of requirements for Jon. Will the assistance of R'hllor be needed to stop Ramsay? Would Mel be needed? What does Jon need to get into WF and reach Ramsay? How is Jon going to travel 300 miles(100 leagues) in fresh deep powder carrying weapons, armor, food, and camping supplies(300mi will take many days on foot)? Different circumstances may be required in Jon's rescue to set him up to move south rather than north. And one direction may make travelling the other impossible. How would moving south effect his ability to move north later? How would moving north effect his decision to later move south? All questions an author must answer when he decides what dilema he puts the character in and how he resolves the dilema.

[Attitude]

I'm sorry. I just used your quote as a soapbox. I did not mean to direct my post at you. When making predictions about a story, I look it as a construct. I ask myself: what tools does the author have to work with and what is the general goal of the story. I was just stating the tools the author has and the general goal: AKA the need to trust Mel and R'hllor in the near future. If GRRM did not need to have Mel perform some magic on Jon(heal/ressurect), Jon would not have been attacked, at least not near enough to Mel. So, to get Jon to trust Mel, and have some faith in the existence of the fire god, Jon's life would have to be in mortal danger and she'd have to rescue him using her power(which comes from r'hllor)

So, GRRM had to come up with some reason Jon's life may be in peril. The freefolk are on his side now, and they are nowhere near ready to battle Others. So, what would be the next plausible? Ramsay? It makes little sense anyone should want to attack the NW. It'd have to be someone with a personal grudge within Castle Black. You might say, why Bowen Marsh? Bowen sent a letter to the 5 kings requesting more men on the Wall prior to the Wildling Assualt. Most important was the Hand's response, " There is only one true king, the rest are imposters. You'd best remember that. You'll get no more men until you place Janos Slynt as Lord Commander." Jon dashed all hopes of reconciling with KL when he embraced Stannis and removed Janos Slynt's head. Cersei may have also made it clear that no more aid would come until the bastard was dead. Now Jon is the best fighter. If this is to work, they need a distraction. How about a rampaging giant? This open's the door to all kinds of possibilities. Now, for folks who say Mel won't be performing any magic on Jon, what was GRRM's motivation for the attack? What did he have in mind if not something to do with Mel? You can't think of these as people. They live in a controlled universe where everything that is said and done has a purpose. Where a character may not exist for 90% of the story, then the author may decide, uh-oh I need a character right here. Now he has to make it feasible that character has reason to be there, so now he has to go back and rewrite the book and weave that new character in with the other characters, create new stories for this character and change things around. So, ask yourself: where is GRRM going with Jon? Would it be necessary for him to have the power of the god of light? Does he have time to go off and become a priest of this new god? So where does he find a priest? How can he trust this priest and this strange god? How does he break free from the situation he bound himself in? The real question should be: will Jon travel south or north? For this will dictate how Jon survives the attack. For each direction has its' own set of requirements for Jon. Will the assistance of R'hllor be needed to stop Ramsay? Would Mel be needed? What does Jon need to get into WF and reach Ramsay? How is Jon going to travel 300 miles(100 leagues) in fresh deep powder carrying weapons, armor, food, and camping supplies(300mi will take many days on foot)? Different circumstances may be required in Jon's rescue to set him up to move south rather than north. And one direction may make travelling the other impossible. How would moving south effect his ability to move north later? How would moving north effect his decision to later move south? All questions an author must answer when he decides what dilema he puts the character in and how he resolves the dilema.

And what does you think that Jon has to trust Mel? So they can work together or what? Because I don’t see that Mel needs to help Jon in any way at all. You assume that Mel and Jon will work together at some point, and yes then there has to be some trust. But at this point, I don’t see why they have to work together.

IMO there is no prove that it is necessary for Jon to die and resurrect.

Iirc Jon never embraced Stannis either. Yes he was happy that Stannis helped him, but the NW doesn’t interfere with the Kingdom. He never acknowledged him as the true King (again, iirc).

GRRM is keeping Jon at the NW.
No.
No, he won’t do it.
See above.
Not required to.

Help from the wildlings.
He won’t travel IMO.

You’re really getting of the point here now IMO, but GRRM hasn’t have to answer those questions. He will take Jon where he wants him to go. Besides, you assume that Jon will leave the fort, which isn’t necessary IMO.

A lot of speculation and questions about something else. The question was: How will Jon survive.

[Julia H.]

I don't think that the only possible literary purpose of the attempt on Jon's life is that he should finally embrace R'hllor. At least I don't believe it would be an improvement on his character. Trusting Melisandre would probably mean "straying" from his true goal, and therefore it would be a tragic mistake, it could even be Jon's downfall as a hero. It would not be a very "original" decision on Jon's part either, since Stannis has already done exactly that (cf. shadowbabies and "Lightbringer"). There is no literary necessity for Jon to make the same pact with Melisandre (and her sorcery) as we have already seen another character make.

Melisandre thinks Stannis and Jon are rather similar, so it makes perfect sense that she tempts them in the same way. But while Stannis has succumbed to temptation, I hope Jon will be the one who does not. The temptation may be strong under certain circumstances, so that it can be a real test, but I hope Jon will not fail (as Stannis did). After all, we have seen Jon being strongly associated with the Old Gods in several ways (Jon's Stark heritage, his recent experiences beyond the Wall, the weirwood, even Mormont's raven, and most of all Ghost, are his most important links to the Old Gods); and we have also seen how passionately Jon is against burning people alive, which both Melisandre and Stannis do without blinking an eye. Becoming a R'hllorist would be a complete change of personality, and not for the better.

[sj4iy]

I don't think that the only possible literary purpose of the attempt on Jon's life is that he should finally embrace R'hllor. At least I don't believe it would be an improvement on his character. Trusting Melisandre would probably mean "straying" from his true goal, and therefore it would be a tragic mistake, it could even be Jon's downfall as a hero. It would not be a very "original" decision on Jon's part either, since Stannis has already done exactly that (cf. shadowbabies and "Lightbringer"). There is no literary necessity for Jon to make the same pact with Melisandre (and her sorcery) as we have already seen another character make.

Melisandre thinks Stannis and Jon are rather similar, so it makes perfect sense that she tempts them in the same way. But while Stannis has succumbed to temptation, I hope Jon will be the one who does not. The temptation may be strong under certain circumstances, so that it can be a real test, but I hope Jon will not fail (as Stannis did). After all, we have seen Jon being strongly associated with the Old Gods in several ways (Jon's Stark heritage, his recent experiences beyond the Wall, the weirwood, even Mormont's raven, and most of all Ghost, are his most important links to the Old Gods); and we have also seen how passionately Jon is against burning people alive, which both Melisandre and Stannis do without blinking an eye. Becoming a R'hllorist would be a complete change of personality, and not for the better.

My opinion is this:

IF Jon is truly AAR, then whatever magic surrounding AAR will come from Jon...not Melisandre, otherwise we simply have another Stannis situation. The true Azor Ahai Reborn will not need Melisandre's intervention.

[Ghost's Shadow]

^ That's lovely put.

[BitsOfBrains]

If Jon did get shanked in the guts/belly (and its almost certain he did) then he is a goner. The state of medicine back then, people just did not recover from gut shots.

The hound says it after Arya shanks the squire with the pimple, and Bennis says it when he is training the peasants in "Sworn Sword".

If Jon persists (and I can't imagine he wont) then its going to be some kind of magical solution.

[Squab]

If Jon did get shanked in the guts/belly (and its almost certain he did) then he is a goner. The state of medicine back then, people just did not recover from gut shots.

The hound says it after Arya shanks the squire with the pimple, and Bennis says it when he is training the peasants in "Sworn Sword".

If Jon persists (and I can't imagine he wont) then its going to be some kind of magical solution.

Yay, magic to the rescue. Hope not.

Was he wearing mail enough to protect him?

[Attitude]

My opinion is this:

IF Jon is truly AAR, then whatever magic surrounding AAR will come from Jon...not Melisandre, otherwise we simply have another Stannis situation. The true Azor Ahai Reborn will not need Melisandre's intervention.

I agree. The (only) reason Melisandre is there is for the cause of forshading (and she really wants to see him be born, and ofc her seeing she was wrong all along is quite funny).

If Jon did get shanked in the guts/belly (and its almost certain he did) then he is a goner. The state of medicine back then, people just did not recover from gut shots.

The hound says it after Arya shanks the squire with the pimple, and Bennis says it when he is training the peasants in "Sworn Sword".

If Jon persists (and I can't imagine he wont) then its going to be some kind of magical solution.

This really isn't that certain IMO. And yes, IF it's true, he's most likely going to die. But I don't think he is.

[Squab]

I agree. The (only) reason Melisandre is there is for the cause of forshading (and she really wants to see him be born, and ofc her seeing she was wrong all along is quite funny).

This really isn't that certain IMO. And yes, IF it's true, he's most likely going to die. But I don't think he is.

Mel could be there to provide a POV after jon goes into healing or whatever it is to bring him back.

[Julia H.]

Mel could be there to provide a POV after jon goes into healing or whatever it is to bring him back.

She could, and, IMO, she would be a very unreliable narrator, LOL. We would go mad trying to interpret her interpretation of events.

[IronPeckyr]

He warged into Ghost and killed them all

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

This is when I'm thinking when Jon comes back alive.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9q1z4yOP41rnmymbo1_500.gif

[Attitude]

This is when I'm thinking IF Jon comes back alive.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9q1z4yOP41rnmymbo1_500.gif

Fixed that one for you!

[juanml82]

Yay, magic to the rescue. Hope not.

Was he wearing mail enough to protect him?

I think mail would feel like GRRM cheated the readers. Sort of "Oh, you thought he was dead? Nah, he was wearing armor all along"

So that leaves either an exceptionally skilled healer or magic.

I think Bowen Marsh attack is described as a punch so we know how he stabbed him. It wasn't a slash, it couldn't be deflected by leather or furs, it was a straight stab

[Attitude]

I think mail would feel like GRRM cheated the readers. Sort of "Oh, you thought he was dead? Nah, he was wearing armor all along"

So that leaves either an exceptionally skilled healer or magic.

I think Bowen Marsh attack is described as a punch so we know how he stabbed him. It wasn't a slash, it couldn't be deflected by leather or furs, it was a straight stab

And what about: You thought he was dead? Nah, you expected it, but the wounds weren't as severe as it seemed. Tricked you'll there!

Why call it a punch and not a stab? Yes, indeed it is explained as a stab, but why the word punch then? Is it simply because that's to ordinary? Or does it have a different meaing?