Strongest Army of Westeros

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I westerlands can have 20,000 horse ( or as tyrion says 3-1 ratio of horse to horse) Then surely the the reach with the bigger population can support 5,000 more

And who will farm the land and fish the sea when they go to war

Horse != knight. Squires are horse too. So are freeriders. And a bunch of others.

And the land will be farmed by the other 99% of the population. In case of the North, probably rather 99.5%.

[Barty]

Desperate for help in the war. He was frustrated too.

He was not desperate initially. In the beginning Robb was winning and needed no reinforcements(after the WW and camps). When things became dire - Tywin was turned around at the Stone Mill and KL was saved and the Lannisters allied with the Tyrells - it was too late to turn to the North since WF had fallen and MC was taken.

Without the Tyrells in the picture Robb actually has the Lannisters outnumbered with what he has in the Riverlands - 10k(Bolton) + 11k(Edmure) + 6k(Robb) compared to 20k with Tywin.

[Lee-Sensei]

He was not desperate initially. In the beginning Robb was winning and needed no reinforcements(after the WW and camps). When things became dire - Tywin was turned around at the Stone Mill and KL was saved and the Lannisters allied with the Tyrells - it was too late to turn to the North since WF had fallen and MC was taken.

Without the Tyrells in the picture Robb actually has the Lannisters outnumbered with what he has in the Riverlands - 10k(Bolton) + 11k(Edmure) + 6k(Robb) compared to 20k with Tywin.

I was talking about Robb in ASoS.

[Nihlus]

And if you count them, you have already 53,000-65,000 :cool4:

Well yeah, but was I under the impression that when someone says, say "Iron Islands: 25,000", they're usually referring to the actual, regular armies, not ship screws or various barbarians. If that were the case, then the Reach force should be much higher than the 80-100K most people estimate them as, to operate their 200 ship fleet.

More about the size of England. And being a naval society, they can raise up to 5%, maybe even 8% of their population to arms, instead of the 1% (on average) an agrarian society can.

Every size comparison I can find makes the Iron Islands look way smaller than England. Where does that size estimate come from?

They did. For Stannis. Half his fleet was made up of Crownland Lords on top of them crewing the Royal Fleet itself.

So the Crowlands don't have a significant army because so many of them have to be around to crew the 210 royal ships?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well yeah, but was I under the impression that when someone says, say "Iron Islands: 25,000", they're usually referring to the actual, regular armies, not ship screws or various barbarians. If that were the case, then the Reach force should be much higher than the 80-100K most people estimate them as, to operate their 200 ship fleet.

Nah, that's a bit complicated. There's a sliding scale of regulars especially where the Ironborn are concerned. Because ship crews operate a bit differently than landbound armies. The Redwyne Fleet is included in the 100,000 estimate for the Reach.

Every size comparison I can find makes the Iron Islands look way smaller than England. Where does that size estimate come from?

The maps. Rough comparison, but it's mostly to defute the claim that the Iron Islands are too small for anything.

So the Crowlands don't have a significant army because so many of them have to be around to crew the 210 royal ships?

Nope. Because those 210 royal ships aren't the royal ships - only 100 of the are the Royal Fleet. The entire rest belongs to the Lords of the Narrow Sea. And well, because most Crownlanders are "good dragon men" and drag their feet to help stag or lion.

[Game Of Thrones]

Weren't the Mountain's Clan fairly effective?

Not that we saw them in a large scale battle. They just ambushed a small retreating force of them and took back a few forts from skeleton garrisons.

Mountain clans, at least the clansmen we saw at Deepwood, were shit. Each IB killed like 5 clansmen each, even though the clans had the element of surprise.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Mountain clans, at least the clansmen we saw at Deepwood, were shit. Each IB killed like 5 clansmen each, even though the clans had the element of surprise.

That scene was honestly one of the most ridiculous cliched moments in the series.

But AFFC is full of them. GRRM just abandoned all realism, ie in his first 3 books, even the heroes would normally only face-off against two or three other enemies before their part was done or they'd be wounded, or like Tyrion at the BW actually be killing already dying men.

We also see Victarion kill 9 dudes in his battle, and it's described in the most man-luciating Rambo way possible.

I genuinely laughed out while reading it.

[The Fallen]

Desperate for help in the war. He was frustrated too.

He wouldn't turn down any help, but in the quote I posted he states that he's not asking Lysa for men, simply for passage through the Vale and ships, which would make for an easier journey North.

And he's trying to keep/get back the men he had, i.e. the Karstarks and Boltons. And with the Boltons it's more for about the bridge.

[Lee-Sensei]

He wouldn't turn down any help, but in the quote I posted he states that he's not asking Lysa for men, simply for passage through the Vale and ships, which would make for an easier journey North.

And he's trying to keep/get back the men he had, i.e. the Karstarks and Boltons. And with the Boltons it's more for about the bridge.

He's not asking anymore because he already sent many frantic letters asking for help and she hasn't budged. He's not asking anymore, because he knows that it's pointless.

[John Doe]

We also see Victarion kill 9 duds in his battle, and it's described in the most man-luciating Rambo way possible.

I genuinely laughed out while reading it.

It was Victarion (a veteran with superior armor and weapons) vs peasants, so it's not unrealistic.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

It was Victarion (a veteran with superior armor and weapons) vs peasants, so it's not unrealistic.

These sailors in the Reach's fleet, so I would think they would have seen battle before. I don't expect them to win of course, but that's just not how hand-to-hand combat goes in real life. And just the way it was described was so laughably cliched and action-movie-like was so absurd. It was such a huge break from GRRM's prior realism. Like, guys like Jaime Lannister and Ned Stark were awesome swordsmen and we see them in badass fights, but they don't literally mow through enemies like it's a fucking video game.

That's what's awesome about some of GRRM's hero-trope busting; he goes beneath myths and shows the reality but also makes it you understand why the reality got turned into the myth (because it's still pretty awesome). So like, you can undertsand why people will say in the future that Victarion the Cruel-Axe cleared whole warships singlehandidly, but the idea is that that's just an exaggeration of a more prosaic reality.

[Lee-Sensei]

I think it's like this:

1) Tyrells

2) Lannisters

3) Baratheons (united)

4) Arryn/Stark/Tully

5) Baratheons of Stormlands

6) Greyjoys

7) Martells

8) Baratheons of Kings Landing

9) Baratheons of Dragonstone

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Mountain clans, at least the clansmen we saw at Deepwood, were shit. Each IB killed like 5 clansmen each, even though the clans had the element of surprise.

Not at all!

We saw two of the best Ironborn warriors (Quarl is top three!) deal some damage serious damage and Asha, who has men sacrificing their lives for her left and right, but the rest go down so easy, the victors call it "hardly a battle".

Unreliable narrator, Asha focuses just on the ones surviving their first encounter.

These sailors in the Reach's fleet, so I would think they would have seen battle before. I don't expect them to win of course, but that's just not how hand-to-hand combat goes in real life. And just the way it was described was so laughably cliched and action-movie-like was so absurd. It was such a huge break from GRRM's prior realism. Like, guys like Jaime Lannister and Ned Stark were awesome swordsmen and we see them in badass fights, but they don't literally mow through enemies like it's a fucking video game.

That's what's awesome about some of GRRM's hero-trope busting; he goes beneath myths and shows the reality but also makes it you understand why the reality got turned into the myth (because it's still pretty awesome). So like, you can undertsand why people will say in the future that Victarion the Cruel-Axe cleared whole warships singlehandidly, but the idea is that that's just an exaggeration of a more prosaic reality.

Actually, that's pretty much the expected outcome for unarmored guys trying to fight against a knight in his armor.

And no, Ned Stark was not an awesome swordsman. That's some TV BS. In the books, he has average talent.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Not at all!

We saw two of the best Ironborn warriors (Quarl is top three!) deal some damage serious damage and Asha, who has men sacrificing their lives for her left and right, but the rest go down so easy, the victors call it "hardly a battle".

Unreliable narrator, Asha focuses just on the ones surviving their first encounter.

Actually, that's pretty much the expected outcome for unarmored guys trying to fight against a knight in his armor.

And no, Ned Stark was not an awesome swordsman. That's some TV BS. In the books, he has average talent.

Certainly Jaime was better than Ned, but I thought that during the confrontation in the street he did some impressive swordwork. I mean "awesome" kinda loosely here, as a modern person who's never even held a fucking sword.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Not at all!

We saw two of the best Ironborn warriors (Quarl is top three!) deal some damage serious damage and Asha, who has men sacrificing their lives for her left and right, but the rest go down so easy, the victors call it "hardly a battle".

Unreliable narrator, Asha focuses just on the ones surviving their first encounter.

Actually, that's pretty much the expected outcome for unarmored guys trying to fight against a knight in his armor.

And no, Ned Stark was not an awesome swordsman. That's some TV BS. In the books, he has average talent.

But didn't you find the description just to be really cliched and ridiculous?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Certainly Jaime was better than Ned, but I thought that during the confrontation in the street he did some impressive swordwork. I mean "awesome" kinda loosely here, as a modern person who's never even held a fucking sword.

Do you talk of the TV version?

But didn't you find the description just to be really cliched and ridiculous?

Which one? Deepwood Motte or the Shield Islands?

[A Bastard Snow]

That scene was honestly one of the most ridiculous cliched moments in the series.

But AFFC is full of them. GRRM just abandoned all realism, ie in his first 3 books, even the heroes would normally only face-off against two or three other enemies before their part was done or they'd be wounded, or like Tyrion at the BW actually be killing already dying men.

We also see Victarion kill 9 dudes in his battle, and it's described in the most man-luciating Rambo way possible.

I genuinely laughed out while reading it.

Yea people try to judge the fighting ability of the Mountain Clans vs Asha and her named companions who all had massive plot armor.

I mean the best swordsman (arguably the best fighter) of the Ironborn beat 7 people but he only fought them one at a time.And he was wearing armor and iirc had a VS sword.

Meanwhile Asha is fucking Kratos and just kills a dozen men at the same time.

Even the KG at the ToJ called the best fighters they ever knew by Jamie and Selmy lost a 3:7 battle.And none of the people they fought against are ever mentioned to be amazing fighters.

Meanwhile Asha can 1:7 people with no problems cause she had done no fighting in the books so GRRM wanted her to feel like she had done something before she gets captured.

[John Doe]

Asha has the advantage of people underestimating her because she's a women, though.

[John Doe]

Certainly Jaime was better than Ned, but I thought that during the confrontation in the street he did some impressive swordwork. I mean "awesome" kinda loosely here, as a modern person who's never even held a fucking sword.

No really. Fighting people who are not allowed to kill you is no imprissive feat at all.

[Nihlus]

Meanwhile Asha can 1:7 people with no problems cause she had done no fighting in the books so GRRM wanted her to feel like she had done something before she gets captured.

It's really not that hard to kill a bunch of untrained barbarians without armor, and wielding sticks and slings, when your crew has actual weapons, armor, and training. I probably need to re-read the section (what chapter was it, again?), but I don't think it's too out there. At least not relative to some other feats in these books.

I agree that Martin has for the most part been pretty good about showing how even the ultimate badasses are at a huge disadvantage when outnumbered or in a bad environment, and are at an enormous disadvantage if handicapped in some other way on top of that. For example, Sandor (a drunk Sandor, to be fair), possibly the best fighter in the world at the time, had a lot of trouble with one good men-at-arm, one average men-at-arm, and a squire, and would have most likely died right there if not for Arya's help in knocking the squire out of the fight early. He even sustains wounds that later get so bad he can't fight anymore. But for every fight like this, we get Jaime cutting through ten men in plate armor with just a sword at Whispering Woods.

Nah, that's a bit complicated. There's a sliding scale of regulars especially where the Ironborn are concerned. Because ship crews operate a bit differently than landbound armies. The Redwyne Fleet is included in the 100,000 estimate for the Reach.

The maps. Rough comparison, but it's mostly to defute the claim that the Iron Islands are too small for anything.

Nope. Because those 210 royal ships aren't the royal ships - only 100 of the are the Royal Fleet. The entire rest belongs to the Lords of the Narrow Sea. And well, because most Crownlanders are "good dragon men" and drag their feet to help stag or lion.

Ah, alright then. Would the Ironborn, on average, be inferior on a man to man basis, then? And I recall Renly stating he had 120,000 men to Stannis (100,000 foot, 20,000 horse), and that was just the Stormlands + the Reach. This, along with the fact that Stannis, who is said to have most of the Stormlords + at least one major Reach house following him, got only 16,000 extra men to supplement his 3,000 Crownlanders and 2,000 mercs, makes me think it's a little implausible that the Reach wouldn't be able to field 100,000++ actual troops (not ship crews). Then again, he said to Catelyn that he only had 80,000 in all, twice what he speculated Robb to have after he recruited the Freys and Tullys (though Cat notes he wasn't considering casualties they took). So... meh.

Which maps? The size comparisons I've seen (admittedly, probably fan-made ones) all depict the islands as much smaller than England, to say nothing of the whole of Britain.

Got it, thanks for the info. I guess that makes sense. It still seems weird that the Iron Throne couldn't just scrounge up a couple thousand spare Crownlanders in their own lands to assault Dragonstone, though. I guess it speaks well for Stannis's skill as an administrator that he was able to muster that many Crownlanders for his cause despite being a major leader in the rebellion, and for the most part have them retain complete discipline and loyalty.