Diplomacy - The South, Turn 14 (Year 4, Months 4-6, Summer)

[TheCrannogDweller]

A very minor adjustment- the hex code for your preferred color should be posted when you sign up.

On that note - the Gamemaster should be able to change colors. This game would've gone alot easier for me if some people's colors weren't so difficult to contrast with the black text on their regions.

[Deadwood]

Made the map interesting to decipher at times. :D

[Leonardo]

Well yeah what the GM says is what goes, coming from someone whose color is as described, especially when colonizing hehe

We should change the dragon rules a bit as it seems to me pretty easy to kill, as well as adding another noble to the sacrifice for the sword to make seven for loreism ;D

I think we should also add a naval specific general trait or two, and expand all the other traits as well if anyone has any ideas. The house traits need to get tweaked again because a lot of them will no longer apply with the new map, and may also need rebalancing based on the new regional bonuses Nox is adding.

Oh and there was also talk about a supply cap for armies or changing 500 levied men to 100 for realism, but while I like them in theory I'm not sure how well either would work.

[Deadwood]

I reckon keep it to 500. These tiles are pretty big, like large shire counties.

Cap sounds good, how many times can you go to the well?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The game should be made a bit less in favor of the attacker. Maybe upkeep costs for troops spending the turn outside their own borders.

Some incentives for ransoming captured nobles. How about making it possible to have cadet branches set up in castles doubling the production and/or if legacy points will be introduced a bonus for both sides for an accepted ransom?

Some incentives to have a fellow player swear fealty instead of wiping them out. Maybe a maximum number of regions you can control yourself before needing vassals to govern them?

Altogether, a way to make big alliances and these giant wars more difficult. Don't know how, but they are no fun and coordinating such alliances is more work than fun. It takes far too much time.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think that 1000 men per region should be a good limit.

So, if a player controls 3 regions, he can have a maximum of 3000 troops at any given time - once he hits that, he can't levy any more. This should make attacking a bit harder.

And maybe add 500 for every castle. So, in the start, with 3 regions and one castle, the limit for every player will be 3500.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Went through about a third of the PMs.

Q: If I attended and assault a tourney, my army would capture my nobles?

A: The rules are somewhat ambiguous on that part. My interpretation is that if the region where a tourney is being held is attacked, the tourney will simply be canceled.

We need firmer rules on moving nobles – how much it costs and who can move whom where. I've allowed squires to move for free with their generals (without an army).

We need clearer rules on whose traits apply when giving an army to another player mid-move.

Q: What happens when a player’s capital is under siege?

A: He/She can’t give resources, lands and armies away, but can receive them.

On Knights: There are two ways of becoming a knight – either by being dubbed by a character who already has the trait (requires the two characters to be from different houses, but in the same region at the time); or by picking the trait after accumulating 2 points. A possible third option is for all squires to be automatically knighted after completing 2(4) years of service.

We need clearer rules on what can and can’t be done with captive characters – both by the captors and by the player to whom they belong.

We need a clear notion on where construction/colonization ends. My rule was that it is done in the income phase of the turn it starts producing – so if one attacks a region in the Movement/Combat phase of the same turn, he can sack the region and disrupt the castle. For example, if we have two regions - one whose colonization was ordered in turn 1 and, and one on which a castle was ordered in Turn 1, if a player orders their sack in turn 4, it will be carried in turn 5 and both build orders will be interrupted.

Divorce – I haven’t allowed it. I think both in-game and in-world, marriage alliances are one of the corner stones of diplomacy, and it takes a King and a High Septon to set one aside. Could be one of the powers of a king.

Difference between Conquest/Colonization – if a player sacks a region undergoing conquest, he restarts the process in his favor; if one does that to a region undergoing colonization, the region reverts to blank(empty).

My rule on how many moves a sea-going force can make after landing:

1st move is landing - up to 3 moves inland for all navies.

2nd move is landing - up to 2 moves inland for all navies

3rd move is landing - up to 1 move inland for regular navies - 2 for Seafarers.

4th move is landing - no moves for regular navies - 2 moves for Seafarers.

5th move is landing - no moves for regular navies - 1 move for Seafarers

6th (or up) move is landing - no moves for regular navies or Seafarers.

Q: What happens when you capture another player’s entire family/last member of the House?

A: Effectively take control of all his lands and armies.

If a player's capital is captured, but he still has free family members and producing regions, all of his resources go to his next strongest castle (a Double Siege, if he has one). If he has no castles, his resources disappear at the end of the turn, if unused. Same goes for prisoners (except the disappearing).

On Lightbringer – since it is a sword, it is a single person’s possession. So, in order for it to be created the wife of the character in question must be the sixth sacrifice – but it doesn’t have to be the Lady of the House (unless the Lord is the one attempting to create Lightbringer).

On the raising of lazer deathfishz - nope, sorry.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think that 1000 men per region should be a good limit.

So, if a player controls 3 regions, he can have a maximum of 3000 troops at any given time - once he hits that, he can't levy any more. This should make attacking a bit harder.

And maybe add 500 for every castle. So, in the start, with 3 regions and one castle, the limit for every player will be 3500.

Doesn't exactly help much. I believe in the entire game this limit was never reached. Across alliances that is, putting 20,000 men under the command of a guy with a single castle to exploit house traits being the exception. We just replaced losses and poured our entire cash into that, with nothing left to build or assassinate or try to go for the wonders.

Attacks on foreign regions need to be more expensive than defending your own holdings, that's the main issue.

[Nox Irradiata]

Posting from my phone, so the formatting may be a little jacked up...

These were the original ideas I typed up for regional bonuses. Each player would still be able to select a positive/negative house trait, and would be assigned a positive/negative regional pair of traits, based on their starting region.

The Iron Islands one will probably get changed to a Seafarers/Feeble combo, instead. And if so, the Stormlands one will need to be reworked, as well.

Also talking about making buildable gold mines and farms, that would yield an additional +1 gold/food each. They would cost 2 gold for mines, 2 food for farms, and would take 2 turns to construct.

As an additional utility for food, I'd like to make poisons craftable with food, and able to be traded/purchased among players.

And as a bonus trait for players whose capital is Dragonstone, they'd get the Blood Of Old Valyria trait by default, in addition to their regional pair and whatever else they select.

Anyway, here are the rough draft of ideas. They can be adjusted.

Regional Attributes:

The Vale

Kings Of The Mountain Many structures in this region are built directly into the steep, unforgiving mountainside itself, making castles in the Vale among the most difficult strongholds to breach in all of Westeros. Castles built in this region have one extra turn of siege by default (castles with an upgraded siege bonus will come equipped with 3 turns of siege).

Watch Your Step! - The mountainous terrain of the Vale is dangerous to navigate. Troops from this region have been trained to mind their footing, and choose their paths cautiously. Players from this region have a permanent -2 move penalty, regardless of which region their troops are currently in (may be modified by House Traits and General Traits).

*BONUS TRAIT*

Sky Cells For players who control The Eyrie itself, their dungeons have a special bonus feature! Many prisoners have been driven to madness, and some of have even chosen to jump to their deaths, rather than face eternity in a Sky Cell. For every turn a prisoner is held captive at The Eyrie, they have to roll for death, regardless of age.

The Iron Islands

Reavers - Warriors from the Iron Islands are famous for their brutal, savage attacks all along the coastlines of Westeros. They are so ferocious that even small raiding parties fight with the strength of a much larger army. Each separate unit of troops (500 minimum) fights as if its 1000 men stronger. This trait does not stack (For Example: 500 men in one area would count for 500 + 1000 = 1500while 2000 men in one area would count for 2000 + 1000 = 3000each unit of 500 within the 2000 does not count for an extra 1000 by itselftheres probably a better way to word this one, but I just wanted to illustrate the idea behind it).

We Do Not Sow The Iron Islands are among the poorest regions in Westeros, with most of their wealth coming from raiding. The lands are cold and desolate, and the rocky soil provides very poor farming grounds. Natural resources are scarce here, and crops are difficult to grow, making food hard to come by. Levies in this region cost 1/2 to raise 500 troops, instead of the standard 1/1.

The Westerlands

These Hills Shit Gold! The Westerlands have many naturally occurring gold mines. Players from this region receive +1 gold per turn (stacks with the Silver Fingered House Trait, for +2 gold per turn).

Hear Me Roar! The Lords of the Westerlands are famous for their tyranny. The smallfolk of this region live in constant fear of invoking their wrath, and the productivity of laborers in this region is reduced. Colonies in this region take one additional turn to produce.

The Riverlands

Bountiful Harvest The Riverlands are a lush, green land, with many farms and plentiful crops. Players from this region receive +1 food per turn (stacks with the Green Thumbs House Trait, for +2 food per turn).

Cry Me A River - Dating back to the Age Of Heroes and beyond, the Riverlands have been a frequent battleground, and have been conquered by various regions throughout the centuries. Because of this, Riverlanders have had less experience at perfecting conquest skills themselves. Players from this region will take one additional turn to conquer and receive resources from a sacked territory.

*BONUS TRAIT*

You Shall Not Pass! For players who control The Twins itself, their castle has a special bonus feature! No one will be allowed to pass (not even players with an NAT) through The Twins from either direction, without permission from the player who controls it. (I think this is an interesting one from a diplomatic point of view. It gives the player who controls The Twins power, on one hand, because they get to act as Gatekeepers and control the flow of troops, and may possibly be able to demand tributes from players who wish to pass. On the other hand, it puts them in a dangerous position, because if they refuse passage, they may make enemies).

The Reach

Bountiful Harvest Same as The Riverlands. +1 food per turn.

Upjumped Stewards Same as The Riverlands (just wanted to use the Upjumped Stewards title because of the story of the end of House Gardener, and the origins of House Tyrells rise to power). Players from this region will take one additional turn to conquer and receive resources from a sacked territory.

The Stormlands

Ours Is The Fury The Stormlords have a long history of battle with many neighboring regions. They have refined their martial abilities over the centuries and have perfected the process of conquest. Players from this region will take one less turn to conquer and receive resources from a sacked territory (this stacks with the Conqueror trait, to a minimum of 2 turns for a territory to produce).

Dirt Poor With few large cities or trading centers, the Stormlands do not have the hubs of commerce that some other regions are known for. Gold is scarce here. Levies cost 2/1 to raise 500 troops, instead of the standard 1/1.

The Crownlands

Urban Sprawl The Crownlands are home to the capital, and largest city, of the Seven Kingdoms. Kings Landing has developed some of the most advanced building techniques in Westeros. Players from the Crownlands are able to build structures within the borders of the Crownlands in one less turn (to a minimum of 1 turn). This stacks with the Craftsmen House Trait (For Example: If a castle normally takes 5 turns to build, a Crownlands player building inside the Crownlands would be able to complete the castle in 4 turnsand one who had the Craftsmen trait in addition, would be able to complete the castle in 2 turnsbut if they built outside of the Crownlands, only the Craftsmen part would apply, and they would complete the castle in 3 turns).

Dangerous Liaisons Kings Landing is known as a place for danger, intrigue, and betrayals. When you play the Game Of Thrones, you win or you die. Watch your back! Players from the Crownlands start death rolls at age 35.

The North

Winter Is Coming Basically the exact same as the Northern Blood trait already in the game. No penalty for fielding troops in Winter. 1/100 chance to be born with the Skinchanger trait.

Ice, Ice, Baby Northern troops are well-adapted to marching in icy cold weather. Players from this region have a +2 movement bonus while travelling within The North or The Vale. They are less suited to warmer climates, and have a -2 movement penalty in all other regions (can be modified with House Traits or General Traits).

Dorne

Fruitful Loins The Dornish are notorious for their sexual prowess. Married couples from this region will produce a child every year, instead of the standard 2 years for players from other regions. Additionally, there is a 1/50 chance each year that the couple will produce twins. Twins are cause for a great celebration! If twins are born, the player receives a bonus 2/2 income that turn.

Hot Blooded The Dornish are also notorious for their spicy tempers, and food! This can lead to some dangerous situations. Players from Dorne, like players from the Crownlands, start death rolls at age 35.

*BONUS TRAIT*

Blood Of The Rhoynar Same as the Blood Of The Rhoynar trait currently in the game. Dornish players will get this by default. No movement penalties for the Princes Pass or Wyl.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Any idea on making babes more viable? Because waiting 64 turns before they can lead armies or whatever is a mite long.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Any idea on making babes more viable? Because waiting 64 turns before they can lead armies or whatever is a mite long.

One idea was to just make the turns longer in game-time - so instead of 3 months as now, each turn can be 6 months, or even a year.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

One idea was to just make the turns longer in game-time - so instead of 3 months as now, each turn can be 6 months, or even a year.

A year would be my preference as well. Furthermore, you actually get the seasons to change a bit faster. We didn't even made it out of summer.

[TheCrannogDweller]

A year would be my preference as well. Furthermore, you actually get the seasons to change a bit faster. We didn't even made it out of summer.

That was on purpose. I didn't want to switch to winter, because it would've meant effectively handing the game to Sword and his allies on a silver platter.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That's another problem though. These big alliances are no fun.

[TheCrannogDweller]

There is no rule against people banding up to make use of each other's traits.

[Leonardo]

I think that sounds fair(the cap nogg described) and is a good starting point; we can always implement more down the road.

We probably won't use legacy points this go round unless we cut them down in number a lot to be simpler, otherwise its a lot more work for the GM to tally them all and everything hehe

Though I guess the GM wouldn't have to keep up with them necessarily if it was all up to the player when to claim they have enough to win

Either way there should be fewer ways to get and lose points, only large acts should count.

And yes that's how colonization and conquering is meant to work, you can effectively disrupt it on the same turn its going to be finished.

The disembarkment rule is good as well, most all that sounds good.

I think flipping armies should work differently; we should make people have to use their own men for the most part, as that's how it would work lore wise as well as give balance to large alliances.

I also think the only way to flip territories' control immediately should be to send a noble of the house to act as a sort of governor, especially when granting regions for castles and raising troops.

Of the traits, it became apparent 5 were far better than the rest:

Craftsmen(arguably best trait in the game)

Conquerors

Hardy

Seafarers

Wrought for battle(no one even picked it hehe, but its quite good)

Blood of Valyria is situational, and we haven't yet had a winter in the game so northern blood is useless along with the other blood ones now. The economic ones are only really good early on, as that +1 will pale in comparison to future incomes, especially in the coming version.

Ideas for traits from me are decreasing colonization time, decreasing build and colonization costs, ability to levy double the men for the same cost(now controlled by the cap), an ability to trade resources at 2 for 1 for the other resource(2 food/gold for 1 gold/food)

And that's about all I got on that front ;D

[TheCrannogDweller]

Portion 2

Q: Can someone order troops before the levy order deadline and then transfer the land after that in the same round to the other player?

A: Yes.

We need a maximum age at which a female character can give birth.

On loot and income – income can be posted by the GM, but loot won't be – even though it is a form of income (as opposed to savings). Also, loot is half of the total savings of the player being attacked – so his income for the turn in which the capital fell does not count.

We need a clearer rule for losses in allied armies. If one army of 1500 and one of 500 fight together, they should only lose 1000, not 1500 as it would be if the rule for half losses is applied to each separately. Also, in the interest of fairness, the bigger loss will be sustained by the bigger army. So in this case, the army of 1500 will lose a 1000, while the army of 500 won’t lose any.

Something that I’ve allowed but no one has ever used – troops can be raised on regions undergoing conquest – but for twice the price of regular levying. A region going through colonization has no permanent population - therefore no troops can be levied from it. A region that is going through conquest has a permanent population - so troops can be levied on it. However, the population has just been put through hell by their conquerors, so they would be reticent to trust the new leadership - and therefore will require additional financial incentive to become soldiers.

Q: Is it possible to destroy ports?

A: Yes, with an explicit order. While the conquest of a region requires the taking of its castle, that doesn’t apply to the port – so a region can be taken without its port being destroyed.

Q: What happens when two players sack a region/take a castle at the same time?

A: The territory/loot goes to the player who has the bigger army. If it is a castle-less territory, it goes to whoever sacked it last (depending on the moves of the army). If both criteria are equal (the armies are the same size and they sacked the region at the same time), the two players have to agree with each other who gets the territory and how to split the loot, if there is any.

[Et Cetera the Mouse]

Also, poisons and assassinations are currently too expensive and give you too little to be useful. I'd like to see a price drop or some other way to improve them.

[Leonardo]

Let's not get political or nothing and just say 40 for births

A year works as well I guess, though winter will be coming and going every 5 or so turns.

The rest all looks good to me except the bit about gifting land; there should have to be a noble of the house taking control for the house trait to apply. It forces players to scheme and plan more independently and with other parties, and makes alliances more clunky and less fluid.

[TheCrannogDweller]

A year works as well I guess, though winter will be coming and going every 5 or so turns.

That's another thing. How will the seasons shift? Should it be a roll of the dice? Or should the Gamemaster pick as he wants?