Samwell Tarly's unfinished sentence

[normalice]

so if I understand correctly, if we kill all the dragons, all the others will die, THE END

No. It's kind of like if you used table salt in a very specific way, you could create a highly Basic solution and a highly Acidic solution. But simply throwing away the basic solution doesn't neutralize the acidic solution - you have to mix them back together.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

interesting thoughts, i'm not really sure what to make of it.

1. The list is a record of all the LCs who served before the list was created - that is, some maester sat down and transcribed the oral history of the Night's Watch and listed the 674 LCs who preceded that moment. This would imply, if you believe the 998 number, that there have been 324 additional LCs since the list was written.

2. The list is a living record of all LCs - it was started during the tenure of the first LC, and each time there's a new LC, he's added to the end. This is how you'd actually expect such a list to be kept. If this list is in fact the official record of all LCs, and it only has 674 listed, then that would be quite alarming indeed.

not really. it would be very impractical to keep such a list. you would take a book write down a name and not touch it for years. one of the people who follow you as writers would easily forget about that book. besides, there would be no practical use for such a list. it is more likely that the NW kept chronicles that listed all important events. so someone who wants to make a list of all LCs has to go through these chronicles and look for entries about deaths and elections of LCs. it also explains why there are different lists: not everybody who made one had access to all chronicles. therefore the newer lists might be less complete as many old chronicles didn't survive. if there was a living list it would be very strange to have other lists that differ from it. why would someone make a different list from the official one? it would make sense to make copies (as i am sure a book wouldn't survive 5000 years, especially when it is still used/written), but they would have the same count of LCs. and of course if it was a copy than sams "it was written during..." wouldn't refer to the start of the list, but to the time this copy was made.

what also makes me doubt that it's a living list is sams quote "it was written during...". A living list would have been written over a timespan of ca 5000 years. sams choice of words would be odd than. the word "during" implies that he wanted to refer to a specific time, a time of a specific event or a specific time period. if he wanted to say "during the andal invasion" it would be even more strange as this would imply the invasion lasted as long as (or longer than) the book was written. we heard that the andals invaded 5000 years ago and that there had been wars over hundreds of years. how could someone say something that took thosands of years was done during something that lasted hundreds of years? he might have said "the list was started around the time of the andal invasion" if this was what he meant.

sam also explicitly says that "everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later", so we can assume that this list is one of these accounts. otherwise he would be really excited to have found some original source material and not just another account written much later.

but there is something else about his quote that makes me curious: if sam thinks the list had been written 324 LCs ago, this would be ca 2500 years. but we never heard of anything that happened at that time, so what would he be refering to when he says "during"?

what is interesting about sams quote is that he doesn't say where the list starts or ends or if the LCs are numbered. are all of the missing 324 LCs those that came after the list was written? or may some of them be from pre-andal times when nobody kept chronicles? if the writer of the list only listed those who were mentioned in (andal)chronicles (and possibly the most famous from pre-andal times) it would easily explain why so many are missing as the NW couldn't have written chronicles before the andals came.

that said i noticed something confusing: it is said that all records of the Night's King were destroyed, but what kind of records does a society without a writing system keep? that leaves 2 possibilities i think:

1. the "records" were something like runes which might suit to list names, possibly some basic informations, but no real texts. possibly engravings in stone or something similar. -> the ones who later made the lists probably were not able to read them and thus did not include them into their lists. maybe some writers have included some LCs based on oral history and some might have not found sources about older LCs and regarded them as legends. which would explain why the numbers differ heavily.

2. the andals and their writing system were already present at the time of the NK. this would mean the NW isn't as old as it is said or the andals came earlier. one way or another the timelines we know would be wrong.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Are you referring to the hittites?

Interesting, in the region where the hittite empire formed there were indeed a hattic speaking people who left trace records dating back to 5000 BCE some 3000 years before the hittites moved in and assimilated them. The history of those people formed the mythos of the hittite people.

Yes, lost in translation.

Well, they might had. But not in 200,000 BC. Homo sapiens didn't even exist as a species at the time, much less founded the hittite royal dynasty.

[Mithras]

I don't think there is a magical explanation. The timing of the oldest records is naturally expected to be aligned with the arrival of Andals who brought letters to Westeros. The First Men used runes and the CotF used none.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

I don't think there is a magical explanation. The timing of the oldest records is naturally expected to be aligned with the arrival of Andals who brought letters to Westeros. The First Men used runes and the CotF used none.

Yea I guess. The only interesting point which I personally find while making this was my timeline joined up with dragons being discovered 5,000 years ago and others arriving 5000 years ago. The Maesters also disagree with the general idea of the 8,000 year timeline.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yea I guess. The only interesting point which I personally find while making this was my timeline joined up with dragons being discovered 5,000 years ago and others arriving 5000 years ago. The Maesters also disagree with the general idea of the 8,000 year timeline.

There were dragons in Westeros prior to the Long Night.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

There were dragons in Westeros prior to the Long Night.

proof? those ridiculous tales were that kingsguard killed a dragon before there even was a kingsguard? or the idea of the wall being built over the body of some ice dragon? or just pure speculation coming from GRRM's tale as the ice dragon?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

proof? those ridiculous tales were that kingsguard killed a dragon before there even was a kingsguard? or the idea of the wall being built over the body of some ice dragon? or just pure speculation coming from GRRM's tale as the ice dragon?

Not so ridiculous at that. Yes, the details are clearly off, but there are countless tales of dragonslayers from all over the continent - and dragon bones to prove it.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

Not so ridiculous at that. Yes, the details are clearly off, but there are countless tales of dragonslayers from all over the continent - and dragon bones to prove it.

could you name some? more importantly I've never caught reading dragon bones being found in westeros other than the bones relating to the targaryen dragons unless you are referring to dragonbone which is used for archery?

Dragonbones most likely came from Valyria through trading etc. Also another idea from me is if there were indeed dragons in westeros (which I do not believe) then I'm certain they must have come from Valyria.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

Not so ridiculous at that. Yes, the details are clearly off, but there are countless tales of dragonslayers from all over the continent - and dragon bones to prove it.

You still have not replied bright blue eyes. I am curious

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You still have not replied bright blue eyes. I am curious

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Clarence Crabb, that guy from Tarth Brienne mentioned. Nagga could have been a dragon as well.

[The Green Griffin]

sorry but "how accurate could that list be? What are the chances he didn't pull a name, or five hundred names, out of his ass?" is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. People would know who the previous 100-200 lord commanders were as their histories would be quite recent eg bloodraven was lord commander during Aegon 5's reign. He wouldn't be able to fake all 600 names as accounts may have existed till then. this were a full first list of them.

In basic terms, the watchman could only lie so far. He would surely have been caught.

Also some names have deliberately been kept vague eg the night's king. Also note worthy is that it's been revealed at the end of season 4's Oathkeeper episode where the others leader was the night's king and walked from the middle of 12 other companions. Those 12 other companions may be likely to be the first 12 lord commanders of the night's watch. GRRM has purposely kept some information vague and others not.

Just some further points to add.

Both this and the original post seem pretty tenuous. While interesting, both require a lot of speculation built on speculation and some questionable leaps. You think people would really remember the previous 100-200 LC's? They might remember a dozen of the more famous ones. Maybe 3 or 4 dozen if they were a member of the Watch who actually cared about history. And its not like their history was necessarily peer-reviewed. Think about it, how many specific ones have we heard about? A dozen or so? GRRM gives us quite a bit of detail about this world, yet we've seen 2 LC's and heard about only 12 more from all the viewpoint characters combined... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lord_Commander_of_the_Night%27s_Watch#Historical_Lord_Commanders

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I'm with you that fire magic in the form of dragons and ice magic in the others are connected. They seem that way now and hell it's the song of ice and fire.

As far as the unfinished quote, I don't think it has to mean what your saying. I think we have to take it as a given that the listed was created after the Andals arrived since there was no written language and Sam says it in the quote.

So say the timeline of 8000 years ago for the long night and 6000 for the Andal invasion. So if it's an active list and it's short 324 LC's assuming 8 years approx 2600 years, it is very understandable to remember a very minimal list of LC's given we're talking about 2600 years, do say they record 600 years of prior LCs that are incorporated into the list, that would fit the 6000-8000 year timeline.

I don't think it is an active list, he says "the oldest list I found" not "the list" "the list of active commanders" or "that scroll on the wall with all the LC's names on it". It seems he was trudging through old books and found the oldest list he could. As far as the unfinished quote, he could have been doing the math in his head, and Jon jumps into to save him the trouble and says "a long time ago"

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

Nice catch! I tuned that part out even worse than Jon did

[TheLastStark]

So did Sam say that Mormont was on that list?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Both this and the original post seem pretty tenuous. While interesting, both require a lot of speculation built on speculation and some questionable leaps. You think people would really remember the previous 100-200 LC's? They might remember a dozen of the more famous ones. Maybe 3 or 4 dozen if they were a member of the Watch who actually cared about history. And its not like their history was necessarily peer-reviewed. Think about it, how many specific ones have we heard about? A dozen or so? GRRM gives us quite a bit of detail about this world, yet we've seen 2 LC's and heard about only 12 more from all the viewpoint characters combined... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lord_Commander_of_the_Night%27s_Watch#Historical_Lord_Commanders

I even came up with a fun exercise to illustrate the problem. Just answer one simple question: list all the popes in chronological order. Anyone? Without consulting an encyclopedia?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I even came up with a fun exercise to illustrate the problem. Just answer one simple question: list all the popes in chronological order. Anyone? Without consulting an encyclopedia?

Personally, I couldn't even name the current one out of hand. And yes, theoretically I'm catholic. :cool4:

[Falstaff_Stark]

There is no book similar to the Anglo-Saxon chronicle for the NW we are aware of. Likely names have to be culled from histories, letters, treaties, and wars. One maester could easily have decided one LC was mythical and another he was real. A letter from one king to another could have accidentally named an old LC and covered up the existence of a brief command. A lord commander could simply have ruled for a dozen years with no notable achievements and no mentions in surviving records available to a list compiler. That compiler becomes a source, and far enough removed, gospel truth. Then, millennia later, a treaty outlining taxation of an orchard on the boundary of the Gift surfaces and a different maester has to add a previously unknown LC.

Or we go Egyptian style and a cursed LC is removed from all records.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Interesting.

[messem]

proof? those ridiculous tales were that kingsguard killed a dragon before there even was a kingsguard? or the idea of the wall being built over the body of some ice dragon? or just pure speculation coming from GRRM's tale as the ice dragon?

And http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels.