Has the secret of making Valyrian Steel been under everyone's noses all this time?

[juanml82]

Not my original idea, I read it somewhere, but let's think about something for a moment:

Aegon the Conqueror made the Iron Throne by forging the swords of his fallen enemies under the fire of Balerion the Black Dread

Three hundred years afterwards, the Iron Throne is said, over and over, to still be sharp and to cut it's occupants.

It never rusted, even though the swords that made it should have long rusted in this time

Valyrian Steel doesn't rust. It doesn't loose its edge either. The secret of making it was lost with Valyria and its dragons.

Valyrian Steel might have a huge implication in the war against the Others, as it seems to be a powerful weapon against them. It will be needed and in large quantities.

The logical conclusion, which Aegon didn't know, is that Valyrian Steel is made by bathing common steel in dragonfire. Thus, the secret of its making was lost all the dragonlords of Valyria save for one of the minor ones perished.

Which also means that whoever controls King's Landing when the Others attack will have a stock of a thousand swords of Valyrian Steel desperately needed at the North, and the ruler's pride and legitimacy will be on the other side of the scales, as that person will need to melt the Iron Throne for good in order to save the realm.

It also means dragons are far more valuable, as their mere breath is the final step in forging thousands and thousands of VS swords.

It will also be one of the ultimate ironies, since it was there all time, and so where the hints.

The only critic I can think at this moment is that someone would have realized that the Iron Throne looks like Valyrian Steel. But maybe, they see what they want to see, and none expects VS in anything that's not a blade. It is well known that the IT is still sharp and most maesters and warriors should know that it's not possible, yet none wonders why, maybe because they hold the IT as sort of sacred/a symbol/yougetwhatimean

[Faydra]

Melting the throne and abandoning the game to save their skins is quite poetic, I'll give this theory some credit.

[King Tyrion I]

An interesting idea.

Although I might add one or two things.

The swords the IT is made of are molten together. I don't think one could do this with Valyrian steel. Valyrian steel is Damascene steel today.

The second thing is that you need spells to forge it. Have a look at the conversation between Tywin and Jaime in the books. IIRC Tywin mentions that it was quite difficult to dissolve Ice.

Besides, If it were this easy, House Lannister would own a new House sword after the loss of its old one. Tywin tried to buy one but nobody would sell theirs.

[Sodd]

The only critic I can think at this moment is that someone would have realized that the Iron Throne looks like Valyrian Steel. But maybe, they see what they want to see

The problem might be the distinct color of valyrian steel (extremely dark grey, looking black). I don't think there's a description of the throne that mentions the swords color, but if it would differ so much from normal steel, it would be mentioned.

I think GRRM also directly stated, that magic is needed for forging valyrian steel. (but then again you could say dragonfire is enough magical to fulfill that criteria)

It might be right that dragonfire is used when making Valyrian steel, but it's not simply exposing (melting together) steel to dragonfire automatically turns it valyrian steel. Another component (applying some magic, or simply the crafting knowledge) is needed.

It is an interesting tought, if Tobho Mott (who is able to reforge, but not make valyrian steel) woud have access to dragonfire, would he be able to produce some new valyrian steel blades (using the same method he used when he rewoked Ice)...

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'm afraid this isn't a new idea. If I remember correctly Dany even promises Jorah a 'dragon-forged' sword the night she walks into the pyre.

[Waters Gate]

Well ive thought and theorized about the matter of the origin of VS before as many others. Quite a while ago i had a small list of requirements for something to be the origin to VS. Among those was for ex. magic as ,entioned by GRRM and by others on this thread.

But another requirement that imho was important on that list was scarcity. VS iirc has been described to have been expensive/rare even for Valyrian family's as with the Targaryans who had only 2 VS swords and no armor even having owned dragons for century and likely having had acces to the knowledge how to make it at some time.

Really if all it took was to coat regular steel with dragonflame to make a much more superior type of metal in the form of VS, then the question begs why there isnt much MUCH more of it around. Really knowing human greed, some valyrian with dragons might have seen the entrepeneurial opportunity to make mountains of wealth by using his dragons as moving VS steel plants. You don't even need the trade network to bring steel to Valyria and bring it back as VS, dragons have hughe range and ar fast and probably with some good management could crank some industrial levels of VS moving from region to region.

Why shouldn't the Targaryans have used their dragons to make VS armor for themselfs? VS it's property's sound excellent for armor aswell.

Imho there must be a rare component in VS. Im, not going to exclude dagonflame from the potential mix though, maybe indeed it needs that too, and eitherway dragonflame sounds great for production purposes to save on machinery and gain time. But there must be some required rare component that makes mass production impossible.

[unitron]

I suspect that dragonflame, if necessary, is needed right from the start when you're turning the iron ore into steel in the first place, so that you get a slightly different molecule that's only "makeable" during the iron to steel transition.

Which probably means rotating shifts of teams of dragons if you're going to produce in quantity.

[Primalsplit]

Coming to think of it, what was the point of Valyrian steel swords? Did they contribute anything to the story so far, other than being cool rare artefacts?

[Bryanfury]

Coming to think of it, what was the point of Valyrian steel swords? Did they contribute anything to the story so far, other than being cool rare artefacts?

Depends on how much weight you put behind their effectiveness in combat versus a real sword. Jon and Brienne are the two characters (that I can recall) who have used Valyrian steel in combat. Brienne in particular may not have survived at the Whispers if not for Oathkeeper. There's a slight chance Valyrian steel is dragonsteel, but it's just as likely it isn't. My guess is that we see Valyrian steel shatter just as easily as regular steel against a sword of the Others, whereas an obsidian sword or w/e would probably have the opposite effect on an Others' sword.

[shmewdog]

Coming to think of it, what was the point of Valyrian steel swords? Did they contribute anything to the story so far, other than being cool rare artefacts?

I believe it was in DwD that Sam is doing some research on the Others, and and he finds information that in the WftD they used Dragonsteel. Jon then surmises that this means Valyrian Steel. So VS will be a major weapon for humanity in the WtfD2

[Biter the Gallant]

Good idea, and the case can be even more simple: _dragonsteel_ is needed against the Others, not Valyrian steel (yes, Samwell and Jon think that dragonsteel equals Valyrian steel- but it would be so GRRM-like if they are totally wrong). Perhaps "dragonsteel" is just ordinary steel bathed in dragonfire - such as the Iron Throne. Valyrian swords perhaps have nothing to do with the whole issue.

[Bryanfury]

Valyrian swords almost certainly have nothing to do with it, given Valyrian steel came around some 6000 years after the Others were last around

[dread pirate davos]

I like it. I had a weird crackpot where the throne would be stannis' nissa nissa and when he melted it he would get light bringer. But this makes more sense

[juanml82]

An interesting idea.

Although I might add one or two things.

The swords the IT is made of are molten together. I don't think one could do this with Valyrian steel. Valyrian steel is Damascene steel today.

The second thing is that you need spells to forge it. Have a look at the conversation between Tywin and Jaime in the books. IIRC Tywin mentions that it was quite difficult to dissolve Ice.

Besides, If it were this easy, House Lannister would own a new House sword after the loss of its old one. Tywin tried to buy one but nobody would sell theirs.

Dragonfire might be hot enough to melt it. Or not, we don't know.

About "spells", since this is a world were magic exists, it may be that it means real spells. However, I've also read somewhere that medieval forging techniques required precise timing for part of the process (turning the blanks or something). A way to keep that timing is by "spells": recite something that rhymes (so it's easier to remember) at a normal cadence while doing whatever smiths have to do and you're measuring the time.

About easy, I've never anyone in Westeros has realized it.

Well ive thought and theorized about the matter of the origin of VS before as many others. Quite a while ago i had a small list of requirements for something to be the origin to VS. Among those was for ex. magic as ,entioned by GRRM and by others on this thread.

But another requirement that imho was important on that list was scarcity. VS iirc has been described to have been expensive/rare even for Valyrian family's as with the Targaryans who had only 2 VS swords and no armor even having owned dragons for century and likely having had acces to the knowledge how to make it at some time.

Really if all it took was to coat regular steel with dragonflame to make a much more superior type of metal in the form of VS, then the question begs why there isnt much MUCH more of it around. Really knowing human greed, some valyrian with dragons might have seen the entrepeneurial opportunity to make mountains of wealth by using his dragons as moving VS steel plants. You don't even need the trade network to bring steel to Valyria and bring it back as VS, dragons have hughe range and ar fast and probably with some good management could crank some industrial levels of VS moving from region to region.

Why shouldn't the Targaryans have used their dragons to make VS armor for themselfs? VS it's property's sound excellent for armor aswell.

Imho there must be a rare component in VS. Im, not going to exclude dagonflame from the potential mix though, maybe indeed it needs that too, and eitherway dragonflame sounds great for production purposes to save on machinery and gain time. But there must be some required rare component that makes mass production impossible.

Well, I'm think that the Targaryens didn't know. They are one of the lesser dragonlord families after all. But yes, the question is why the other dragonlords didn't make lots of it. Purposely keeping it scarce add to its value, and their relative advantage, both political and economical (kind of diamonds in modern times, when the supply is kept artificially low). However, at any point during a war, any of the dragonlords would have believed they needed the additional advantage provided by lots of cheap valyrian steel, and would have produced it in large quantities

[juanml82]

The problem might be the distinct color of valyrian steel (extremely dark grey, looking black). I don't think there's a description of the throne that mentions the swords color, but if it would differ so much from normal steel, it would be mentioned.

Yes. Then again, everyone notices there is something odd about the IT continued sharpness, but they don't draw any conclusions

[oursisthefury69]

Yes. Then again, everyone notices there is something odd about the IT continued sharpness, but they don't draw any conclusions

People note the incidents of and the potential of getting cut by the throne; However i dont think its ever seen as "odd" by anybody that it still can cut people

[Frey family reunion]

If dragonfire is needed to create Valyrian steel, I wonder how Tobho Mott was able to reforge Ice into Oath Breaker and Widow's wail? Tobho claims spells are required in the forging.

[oursisthefury69]

If dragonfire is needed to create Valyrian steel, I wonder how Tobho Mott was able to reforge Ice into Oath Breaker and Widow's wail? Tobho claims spells are required in the forging.

Well the answer's in your post, the difference between "creating" and "reforging"