Is this Discriminatory?

[Nymeria10k]

In my view the only situation where it can't be discriminatory is where the job requires you to be a veteran with a honourable discharge. If it's a job which any other kind of veteran can do then absolutely it is discriminatory. So if a regular vet or with other credentials can reasonably perform that job at the same level as a vet with a honourable discharge then it is definitely discrimination

E.g you can't hire someone to be a doctor who has absolutely no medical knowledge or the expertise required to be one. So if you rejected a 16 year old school dropout for a job that requires a doctor with 2 years' experience because he didn't have the experience or he wasn't a doctor, it wouldn't be discriminatory

I'm studying employment law at uni but I don't know much yet. And I don't really know how US law works

[Cuellar]

I'm studying employment law at uni but I don't know much yet. And I don't really know how US law works

To understand US employment law, just assume it is extremely murky and a complete fucking train wreck. Like most things in the US, it boils down to who is better at lawyering.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I've read somewhere that a dishonorable discharge is legally treated like a felony conviction.

[peterbound]

No. Not at all. A dishonorable discharge, as stated above is equal to committing a felony, and getting punished for it. Same as not hiring a felon.

You can petition to get this label/description changed through an appeal board, but it's not easy.

When you get the bcd, or dishonorable, you give up all bennies you get as a vet, to include preference points (a practice honored by all federal, state, and city orgs, and most private orgs).

This is tantamount to discriminating against a felon. It is also an indicator of future expectations (I'm sure that's going to piss some folks off) based on past performance.

[Tempra]

When you get the bcd, or dishonorable, you give up all bennies you get as a vet, to include preference points (a practice honored by all federal, state, and city orgs, and most private orgs).

Bit off topic, but that is not true for excepted service jobs.

[peterbound]

Bit off topic, but that is not true for excepted service jobs.

All federal jobs allow preference points. Point me to one that doesn't, and I'll take that back, but I doubt you'll find any.

Also, aren't those typically non competitive appointments? And I still doubt you'd get any appointment if you had a big chicken dinner, or a dishonorable discharge.

[Tempra]

All federal jobs allow preference points. Point me to one that doesn't, and I'll take that back, but I doubt you'll find any.

Nope. There are several categories of federal jobs that are exempt from formally applying the veteran preference. In those instances, veteran status is usually just a plus factor. Here is the pertinent regulation, 5 CFR 302.101©:

© Positions exempt from appointment procedures. In view of the circumstances and conditions surrounding employment in the following classes of positions, an agency is not required to apply the appointment procedures of this part to them, but each agency shall follow the principle of veteran preference as far as administratively feasible and, on the request of a qualified and available preference eligible, shall furnish him/her with the reasons for his/her nonselection. Also, the exemption from the appointment procedures of this part does not relieve agencies of their obligation to accord persons entitled to priority consideration (see § 302.103) their rights under 5 U.S.C. 8151:

(1) Positions filled by persons appointed without pay or at pay of $1 a year;

(2) Positions outside the continental United States and outside the State of Hawaii and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico when filled by persons resident in the locality, and positions in the State of Hawaii and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico when paid in accordance with prevailing wage rates;

(3) Positions which the exigencies of the national defense program demand be filled immediately before lists of qualified applicants can be established or used, but appointments to these positions shall be temporary appointments not to exceed 1 year which may be renewed for 1 additional year at the discretion of the agency;

(4) Positions filled by appointees serving on an irregular or occasional basis whose hours or days of work are not based on a prearranged schedule and who are paid only for the time when actually employed or for services actually performed;

(5) Positions paid on a fee basis;

(6) Positions included in Schedule A (see subpart C of part 213 of this chapter) and similar types of positions when OPM agrees with the agency that the positions should be included hereunder;

(7) Positions included in Schedule C (see subpart C of part 213 of this chapter) and positions excepted by statute which are of a confidential, policy-making, or policy-advocating nature;

(8) Attorney positions; and

(9) Positions filled by reemployment of an individual in the same agency and commuting area, at the same or lower grade, and under the same appointing authority as the position last held; Provided That, there are no candidates eligible for the position on the agency's priority reemployment list established in accordance with § 302.303.

(10) Positions for which a critical hiring need exists when filled under § 213.3102(i)(2) of this chapter.

For example, here is the typical disclaimer on an attorney job at DOJ:

Veterans: There is no formal rating system for applying veterans' preference to attorney appointments in the excepted service; however, the Department of Justice considers veterans' preference eligibility as a positive factor in attorney hiring. Applicants eligible for veterans' preference must include that information in their cover letter or resume and attach supporting documentation (e.g., the DD 214, Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty and other supporting documentation) to their submissions. Although the "point" system is not used, per se, applicants eligible to claim 10-point preference must submit Standard Form (SF) 15, Application for 10-Point Veteran Preference, and submit the supporting documentation required for the specific type of preference claimed (visit the OPM website, www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF15.pdf for a copy of SF 15, which lists the types of 10-point preferences and the required supporting document(s).

http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/job/trial-attorney-24

[peterbound]

Nope. There are several categories of federal jobs that are exempt from formally applying the veteran preference. In those instances, veteran status is usually just a plus factor. Here is the pertinent regulation, 5 CFR 302.101©:

For example, here is the typical disclaimer on an attorney job at DOJ:

http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/job/trial-attorney-24

So, there is preference points? I read that it is allowed, just not in the normal point system in some cases, and used in a positive manner to hire? Wouldn't that be, in the terms of this conversation, discriminatory hiring practices?

Also, I'll say again, aren't most of these non competitive appointments? LIke interns and such?

I'm not really sure we are disagreeing here, nor am I sure that they don't promote the hiring of employees in this systems by using some 'preference' system.

I'm going to write my senator about trying to get preference points in the traditional sense used in this system. Not sure why they aren't used as such.

[Tempra]

So, there is preference points? I read that it is allowed, just not in the normal point system in some cases, and used in a positive manner to hire? Wouldn't that be, in the terms of this conversation, discriminatory hiring practices?

Also, I'll say again, aren't most of these non competitive appointments? LIke interns and such?

I'm not really sure we are disagreeing here, nor am I sure that they don't promote the hiring of employees in this systems by using some 'preference' system.

I'm going to write my senator about trying to get preference points in the traditional sense used in this system. Not sure why they aren't used as such.

AFAIK, jobs in the competitive civil service must give veteran job applicants preference points. That is not true for jobs in the excepted service, for those job categories listed above, anyways. And, no, the excepted service is not just for interns. Most attorney positions (of which there are tens of thousands) fall under the excepted sevice, for instance.

But yes, veterans are still supposed to receive a preference akin to what an underrepresented minority might receive via AA. That is discriminatory, of course, but totally legal discrimination.