War elephants?

[Marcus Agrippa]

House yew and house srsfield. I don't have the books on me while i am at school but we have them in the lib so I will pick them. I think it was ACOK where they give the numbers. also the golden company has amazing achers but since they are with the elephants...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

House yew and house srsfield. I don't have the books on me while i am at school but we have them in the lib so I will pick them. I think it was ACOK where they give the numbers. also the golden company has amazing achers but since they are with the elephants...

House Piper got mentioned having archers as well.

As does literally any House.

[German]

As for the elephants at Zama being BS:

1. Polybius and Livy don't know jack shit about elephant behavior, and even contradict themselves. Example: They both say that Hannibal had to make barges at the Rhone for his elephants, who were apparently very, very scared of water and couldn't swim. Elephants are actually pretty strong swimmers. In fact, in his account of the Tagus, Polybius implicitly states that Hannibal's elephants swam across the Tagus with little trouble.

Scipio apparently scared the elephants with loud noises, shield banging, and trumpets. That kind of racket is a given for almost all ancient battles, so it stands to reason that the elephants should be trained to handle it. Even idiots wouldn't have used elephants for battle (which involves lots of noise) if they were so easily scared of loud noises.

Sidestepping away from the elephants, which is what ostensibly happened, would've only worked if war elephants with training and mahouts couldn't physically turn at all.

It's stated that some of the elephants turned around and seriously wrecked the Carthaginian lines. There's a reason the mahouts carried hammers and chisels (even Livy is aware of this).

It's absurd to think that Carthage would have had 80 trained elephants available at the time. Less than a year before, at Utica and the Great Plains, when Carthage was desperately fighting for survival, Hasdrubal Gisgo had none at all. There wasn't enough time between then and Zama to capture and/or train that many elephants. A smaller amount may have been plausible, but due to the previous reasons the number of elephants was probably 0.

It's very unlikely that they would've been untrained elephants, once again because Hasdrubal Gisgo had none, and if they weren't fit for his use, then less than a year later they still wouldn't be ready. Some may have been, say a dozen at most, but 80 is an absurd number.

Finally, Polybius' account was written quite a long time after the battle, had no witness accounts, and was written after the destruction of all Carthaginian records. Furthermore, he was under the patronage of Carthage's destroyer, who also happened to be Scipio Africanus' grandson. If any part of The Histories contains clear historical bias, Zama's probably it.

Obviously Polybius isn't an ideal source he was sponsored by house Scipio however thats one of the only sources we have.

We have numerous examples of elephants getting scared and turning on their armies or being irrelevant. I.e pigs, injuries, one of their number being injured etc. The fact is you can't really change an animals nature, Elephants are either aggressive and undisciplined or receptive to orders but aggressive.

I know that mahouts had Chisels that doesn't change the fact that there are numerous records of a group of elephants panicking and turning on their men with mahouts reacting too late or not at all. Also if there is a substantial chance of having to kill a highly expensive unit every time you take it into battle and its a gamble every time you use it is it really worth it?

Im sure that if the survival of your nation is at risk and you consider elephants to be your on trump card you will use all the resources you have available ideally trained or not. Zama was an all or nothing gamble on Carthage's part.

[Marcus Agrippa]

House Piper got mentioned having archers as well.

As does literally any House.

Right- I was just thinking elite archers. I suppose it doesn't matter until we see how the elephants are used.

[Dimples]

Im sure that if the survival of your nation is at risk and you consider elephants to be your on trump card you will use all the resources you have available ideally trained or not. Zama was an all or nothing gamble on Carthage's part.

I already addressed this. Utica and the Great Plains, where Hasdrubal Gisco commanded, were about equally desperate situations, and the Carthaginians would've, and did use all the resources available. Hasdrubal Gisco had no elephants, indicating that there were no elephants fit for battle at the time, whether well-trained or untrained. It's extremely difficult to believe that they suddenly procured 80 in less than a year. There may have been a few at Zama (or likely none), but any amount remotely close to 80 would be incongruous.

Obviously Polybius isn't an ideal source he was sponsored by house Scipio however thats one of the only sources we have.

That's exactly the problem. He's the only source we have, and we know (at least in this case) that he was heavily biased and didn't use witness accounts.

We have numerous examples of elephants getting scared and turning on their armies or being irrelevant. I.e pigs, injuries, one of their number being injured etc. The fact is you can't really change an animals nature, Elephants are either aggressive and undisciplined or receptive to orders but aggressive.

Yes, elephants have been scared many times by many things. But Zama is the only time that they were turned around by loud noises, which is ridiculous, as all battles are full of loud noises.

I know that mahouts had Chisels that doesn't change the fact that there are numerous records of a group of elephants panicking and turning on their men with mahouts reacting too late or not at all. Also if there is a substantial chance of having to kill a highly expensive unit every time you take it into battle and its a gamble every time you use it is it really worth it?

Sometimes the mahouts don't use the chisels until it's too late. In many cases the mahouts themselves are killed. I find it hard to believe that the former would occur under Hannibal's command, and there is no evidence that the latter occurred at Zama.

Yes, elephants are a gamble, and they can be a bad investment, possibly more often than not. However, they have been successfully utilized on a number of occasions, and are not ineffective as a rule.

[JonathanTheBold]

I wonder if we will see mounted crossbows. It will be interesting to see the capacity in which they are used in. Also do we have any sizes on the elephants? Are they supposed to be the African or Asian breed? From what I read he didn't give them a height but the African ones are taller. The asian size would prob be more suited for westeros warfare.

I believe it was either rob or Tywin that had both mounted archers and crossbow men in their army I remember reading it the other week in the first book but I can't remember whoes chapter it was it was either Tyrion or Cat

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Right- I was just thinking elite archers. I suppose it doesn't matter until we see how the elephants are used.

He was an elite archer as well.

That's why he was at the Twins: Relatives of Lord Piper and other highranking men.

[German]

Multi post my bad

[German]

Yes, elephants are a gamble, and they can be a bad investment, possibly more often than not. However, they have been successfully utilized on a number of occasions, and are not ineffective as a rule.

We are fully in agreement here. Elephants definitely have their uses and Westerosi armies are ideal opponents for them as they rely heavily on undisciplined peasants and Sellswords with very weak lines of communication and unit articulation when compared to armies such as the Romans. Their elite units are Mounted and as you said mounted units are very inneffective against elephants. Also Westeros' lack of archers will be a boon to the elephants.

As for difficulty of controlling elephants the Golden Company is one of the most well trained and supplied sellsword armies in Westeros I'm sure their elephants will be highly trained as will their handlers.

I am sure they will have an impact at one or two battles especially with the only Lannister/Tyrell general who I see being experienced and skilled enough to counter them being Randyll Tarly

I just wanted to make clear that elephants are not as big a trump as some people think and their success is highly conditional to the environment and the way your opponents react. If I seemed to be arguing that elephants are completely useless then I apologize, thank you for the list of battles a few of them I had never heard of and actually did show that elephants can be quite effective.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We are fully in agreement here. Elephants definitely have their uses and Westerosi armies are ideal opponents for them as they rely heavily on undisciplined peasants and Sellswords with very weak lines of communication and unit articulation when compared to armies such as the Romans. Their elite units are Mounted and as you said mounted units are very inneffective against elephants. Also Westeros' lack of archers will be a boon to the elephants.

:bs:

[German]

:bs:

So now Westrosi have strong standing armies do they? Their armies rely heavily on Levy force, that's a fact that is supported heavily in the book. Of course every house has their core force of well trained soldiers but those mostly compose the cavalry.

[Universal Sword Donor]

:bs:

Hey look, just because the men fighting are wearing and using equipment that is more expensive than their village doesn't mean that they are experienced, trained, and disciplined men. After all, Westerosi lords are widely known for the open handed nature and lack of martial prowess.

[Universal Sword Donor]

So now Westrosi have strong standing armies do they? Their armies rely heavily on Levy force, that's a fact that is supported heavily in the book. Of course every house has their core force of well trained soldiers but those mostly compose the cavalry.

Read the OP and discussion in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

If you really, really want to discuss this, feel free to PM me. I can at least point you to some more books.

[Dimples]

So now Westrosi have strong standing armies do they? Their armies rely heavily on Levy force, that's a fact that is supported heavily in the book. Of course every house has their core force of well trained soldiers but those mostly compose the cavalry.

Feudal levy=/=undisciplined peasant rabble.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

EDIT: Damnit ninja-ed. :angry2:

[Sleeve of Wizard]

One of may all time favorite troop units in Rome : Total War

FLAMING PIGS!

[German]

Feudal levy=/=undisciplined peasant rabble.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

EDIT: Damnit ninja-ed. :angry2:

Is your entire goal to just attempt to discredit everything I say?

It is clear that no matter how brave or well intentioned a Levy is they will never be as disciplined as a well drilled standing army. Also no medieval army Westros included had any level of effective unit articulation that would permit you to react to unexpected threats quickly

Read the OP and discussion in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

If you really, really want to discuss this, feel free to PM me. I can at least point you to some more books.

Okay yeah thanks man!

[Marcus Agrippa]

He was an elite archer as well.

That's why he was at the Twins: Relatives of Lord Piper and other highranking men.

Can I say I am impressed? Do you write this all down because there are so many houses and with all that information I would go bonkers.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Can I say I am impressed? Do you write this all down because there are so many houses and with all that information I would go bonkers.

Thanks.

No, I don't write it down, that's why I'm sometimes lacking sources. It's the forum experience, as well as being part of the military theme that's actually my biggest point of interest in forum discussions.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Thanks.

No, I don't write it down, that's why I'm sometimes lacking sources. It's the forum experience, as well as being part of the military theme that's actually my biggest point of interest in forum discussions.

Your welcome sir/madam/thing.

I prefer economics but tactics and strategy has always been a hobby. Love roman history pre Constantine.

What do you make of knights vs elephants? I would like to believe depending on the formation the knights could simply move around them.

[Dimples]

Is your entire goal to just attempt to discredit everything I say?

Only when you're wrong. I'm sorry for sounding rude sometimes, though.