War elephants?

[Irish]

Then there was the conversation between Jon and the Gold Comp Spymaster and whom mentioned that the Vale would make a likely ally.

Taking the Elephants to the Vale so that I don't know can reach the place might be a great idea. Unless they decide to take ship to get there and I do believe they are going to be hitting the Vale for support and if they don't then JonCon is an idiot.

When was the Vale/Spymaster talk done? I don't remember it.

Also, why would the Vale ally with the Golden Company? I think the spymaster was using outdated information, because Baelish is kinda in the hotseat of the Vale, and even if they do join, they'll need to fight through the Riverlands and go past Harrenhal (which Baelish is Lord of) to get to King's Landing. That's not going to be an easy task, considering Baelish probably has a fortune squared away from stealing from the Crown.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I wonder if we will see mounted crossbows. It will be interesting to see the capacity in which they are used in. Also do we have any sizes on the elephants? Are they supposed to be the African or Asian breed? From what I read he didn't give them a height but the African ones are taller. The asian size would prob be more suited for westeros warfare.

[Guard of the Rainking]

They should work well as a status symbol.

[Fire Eater]

Against regular troops and horses, elephants are effective shock troops and good at breaking into enemy lines. Against dragons, elephants are useless, and could be spooked into stampeding into their own army trampling men beneath their feet.

unless they are used to reach unreachable places like the Vale? Think Hannibal and his trek through the Alps to get to Italy.

In the TWoW spoiler, after capturing SE, Connington is going out to meet the 20,000 strong Tyrell army sent to take it. I think it will resemble the

Battle of Lake Trasimene. Hannibal knew which road a Roman army was taking and chose the location where there were hills on one side and the lake to the other. I think Connington will find a similar location along the kingsroad, and ambush the Tyrell army when it comes by with Conningotn's army in the hills, and pushes them into the lake.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

I'll like to point out that North African elephants (ones used during Roman peroid, now dead) were smaller, more timid and generally just worse when it came to war than their Indian counterparts who were bigger, more fearsome and even performed better in combat, as the Timurids later proved. I think the elephants GRRM has in mind is the south african breed, which are fucking massive when compared to the war elephants used in the past. No idea how they would do in warfare though.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Against regular troops and horses, elephants are effective shock troops and good at breaking into enemy lines. Against dragons, elephants are useless, and could be spooked into stampeding into their own army trampling men beneath their feet.

In the TWoW, after capturing SE, COnnington is going out to meet the 20,000 strong Tyrell army sent to take it. I think it will resemble the

Battle of Lake Trasimene. Hannibal knew which road a Roman army was taking and chose the location where there were hills on one side and the lake to the other. I think Connington will find a similar location along the kingsroad, and ambush the Tyrell army when it comes by with COnningotn's army in the hills, and pushes them into the lake.

That is a very good battle to do actually. Nice catch. Maybe the Bronze gate or in that area? Granted it would be smarter to do it by storm ends but the area north of there is supposed to be heavily wooded I think.

[TheNinjaDC]

I feel they will be used in a decisive action by (f)Aegon once, then the threat of them will be used to stop battles before they start, but I feel their second major use will end in failure.

I see them being his ace that allows him to get a foot hold in Westeros outside of the Stormlands. But his final enemies Dany or Jon/Stannis will counter them. Dany has the obvious dragon card. Jon/Stannis on the other hand may have mammoths(larger, stronger, and Winter proof) or at the very least the all important experience of fighting mammoths. War elephants are primarily shock troops, but with Jon/Stannis the shock is gone.

I don't think we will get war elephants vs mammoths, but I cross my fingers we do.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I feel they will be used in a decisive action by (f)Aegon once, then the threat of them will be used to stop battles before they start, but I feel their second major use will end in failure.

I see them being his ace that allows him to get a foot hold in Westeros outside of the Stormlands. But his final enemies Dany or Jon/Stannis will counter them. Dany has the obvious dragon card. Jon/Stannis on the other hand may have mammoths(larger, stronger, and Winter proof) or at the very least the all important experience of fighting mammoths. War elephants are primarily shock troops, but with Jon/Stannis the shock is gone.

I don't think we will get war elephants vs mammoths, but I cross my fingers we do.

That would be fun. I wonder if the Asian/ current African stock are bigger and faster then the mamomoths of our world.

Yeah elephants would be toasted by fire. I still dream of a battle that has three factions attacking each other. Imagine Danerys landing inbetween Stannis.Jon and Aegon. That would be the best scene of all time.

[The Reckoner]

Funny flaming pigs come up here as a response to the war elephants. Elsewhere, it was remarked about how GRRM uses boars to signal major changes in leadership.

[Fire Eater]

That is a very good battle to do actually. Nice catch. Maybe the Bronze gate or in that area? Granted it would be smarter to do it by storm ends but the area north of there is supposed to be heavily wooded I think.

I think it would be someplace in the kingswood/heavily wooded area with foliage and brush to hide behind. There is also the Wendwater River to consider. There could be an unmentioned lake nearby.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I think it would be someplace in the kingswood/heavily wooded area with foliage and brush to hide behind. There is also the Wendwater River to consider. There could be an unmentioned lake nearby.

Hmmm maybe when TWOIAF comes out we will get a detailed look. That would be a good as area as any and he would be leading a random set of forces just like Hannibal. Soldiers from SE, gold company men, and whatever tricks Varys has.

[Falstaff_Stark]

Elephants can be dealt with on the battlefield by disciplined troops. Knights and peasant levies, maybe not. But wildfire on them would be extremely cruel.

As for Zama I tend to go with what seems consensus. Barely trained elephants and well prepared Romans. No matter how well you train an animal, if flight responses kick in, they're gone.

[Dimples]

As for Zama I tend to go with what seems consensus. Barely trained elephants and well prepared Romans. No matter how well you train an animal, if flight responses kick in, they're gone.

Of course, if those elephants never existed...

[Falstaff_Stark]

I've downed Punic War stuff for decades and never heard that theory. Not saying it's impossible but.....?

[Dimples]

I've downed Punic War stuff for decades and never heard that theory. Not saying it's impossible but.....?

As for the elephants at Zama being BS:

1. Polybius and Livy don't know jack shit about elephant behavior. Example: They both say that Hannibal had to make barges at the Rhone for his elephants, who were apparently scared of water. Elephants are actually pretty strong swimmers. In fact, in his account of the Tagus, Polybius implicitly states that Hannibal's elephants swam across the Tagus with little trouble.

Scipio apparently scared the elephants with loud noises, shield banging, and trumpets. That kind of racket is a given for most ancient battles, so it stands to reason that battle-trained elephants should be trained to handle it.

Sidestepping away from the elephants, which is what ostensibly happened, would've only worked if elephants (with training and mahouts) could only ever go in a straight line.

It's stated that some of the elephants turned around and seriously wrecked the Carthaginian lines. There's a reason the mahouts carried hammers and chisels (even Livy is aware of this).

It's absurd to think that Carthage would have had 80 trained elephants available at the time. Less than a year before, at Utica and the Great Plains, when Carthage was fighting for survival, Hasdrubal Gisgo had none at all. There wasn't enough time between then and Zama to capture and train that many elephants. A smaller amount may have been plausible, but due to the previous reasons the number of elephants was probably 0.

It's very unlikely that they would've been untrained elephants, once again because Hasdrubal Gisgo had none, and if they weren't fit for his use, then less than a year later they still wouldn't be ready.

Finally, Polybius' account was written a long time after the battle, and after the destruction of all Carthaginian records. Furthermore, he was under the patronage of Carthage's destroyer, who also happened to be Scipio Africanus' grandson. If any part of The Histories contains historical bias, Zama's probably it.

I find the notion that Carthage pulled 80 elephants out of its ass in less than a year quite absurd. Sure, it's possible, in a very loose sense of the word, but is likely? Hell no.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I find the notion that Carthage pulled 80 elephants out of its ass in less than a year quite absurd. Sure, it's possible, in a very loose sense of the word, but is likely? Hell no.

Ill take your and his word for it. I never cared that much about the end of the war. Once Rome moved in on Spain and Catharge didn't send aid by sea that war was over. Hannibal did very well. However, Martin may not be aware of the fact.

[Irish]

I see them being his ace that allows him to get a foot hold in Westeros outside of the Stormlands. But his final enemies Dany or Jon/Stannis will counter them. Dany has the obvious dragon card. Jon/Stannis on the other hand may have mammoths(larger, stronger, and Winter proof) or at the very least the all important experience of fighting mammoths. War elephants are primarily shock troops, but with Jon/Stannis the shock is gone.

Not to mention the fact that Jon has, well, giants... They'd just club the elephants to death before they managed a real charge.

[German]

With Aegon's elephants coming- and historically I don't know how effective they would be- with 100 or so- is anybody excited to see maybe a Zama or even a changed up Battle of Asculum?

Also, what purpose will the elephants serve? It seems like they are a afraid of fire and where I originally thought they were aegons answer for the dragons... It seems like they will be just dragon fodder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asculum_%28279_BC%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama

Elephant in Medieval warfare were not very effective. All you can really use them for is scare factor. However a few arrows will usually spook them as they are usually highly unaggressive if they do become aggressive they are as likely to kill your men as your enemies. However Westeros isn't known for its bows or archers so who knows they could be pretty effective one time tools. History however has proven time and time again that as soon as troops lose their fear for the elephants they are highly ineffective unreliable weapons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Not to mention the fact that Jon has, well, giants... They'd just club the elephants to death before they managed a real charge.

Giants and mammoths, elephants larger cousins.

[Michael Snow]

Oh man, I have a lot of fun imagining what the Golden Company and their elephants could do at full strength! If the dragons make it over to Westeros they could roast all of Aegon's elephants from afar and totally nullify them, true. On the other hand, if a few dozen of his trained and experienced armored war elephants charge an army of Westerosi spearmen and bowmen hastily recruited from the local area and barely trained before being thrown in, I think the elephants are a game changer. The knights would have a hell of a time getting their horses to stay calm when elephants charge them too, or even come near them - that was a problem for cavalry facing elephants in the past, right?

I think Aegon and the highly professional Golden Company could probably steamroll the regional armies. I wonder if they could use the elephants for sieges - anyone like the idea of an army of elephants tearing up trees and boulders and hurling them at a castle? The possibilities are tremendous!

Of course, if someone brings some flaming pigs to the party... whole other story. :drunk: