German and/or Scandinavian fantasy

[Neumond]

Dolorous Ned: Don´t you dare, not letting Moers sit besides the great ones. :stunned:

The guy is a language magician and a masterful story-teller.

I´m in love with his tell don´t show approach (yepp he does it the "wrong" way). He does everything we are told is bad storytelling and it comes out amazing.

Ok, his last Buchhaim-book wasn´t up to his usual standard. And he got great backlash for that in germany. Fans were utterly dissappointed. So much, that he felt compelled to make one of his rare (and most of the time absurd) statements...

Still you have to give it to him, the beginning is pure parody of an action-hook. And the theater-play was a typical Moers-experiment.

He´s shown his skills again and again. He is hilarious, aware of human nature, ridiculously creative and turns the crushing of every story-telling rule into a masterclass.

And I never read another author who managed to make me fall in love with pages-long name-lists. Or pages-long desriptive lists, or lists of verbs or lists of whatever. (Again: An atrocious breech of writing rules, that turned out awesome...)

His usage of language is the one thing that makes it work and strikes me as very very german. (I think this could make his work almost impossible to translate.)

Many of his names are invoking german stereotypes. Sometimes the names itself sound like they stem from a certain dialect, or a certain region. Sometimes you got some nonsense words which manages to invoke the image of german Spießertum. Often creatures, places, characters are derived from german sayings or believe-systems. He is making fun of almost every aspect of german culture and society.

And he is so adaptable in his writing. Have a look at his Rumo-story. (Perhaps the best shot at a translatable book.)

It´s an persiflage of the hero´s journey and every fantasy trope I could think of.

He uses a voice much different, to his normal one.

A voice that despite being childish, unrounded and somewhat clumsy, draws the reader in, is dripping with his humor and at first glimpse seems to be your random uninspired genre-voice.

How he made that work is beyond me...

And I found myself several times cracking up, when he just used another fantasy-trope, because reasons.

The beginning alone is pure gold, how he summarizes the essence of a typical hero in three sentences. You know exactly how it ends, because it is your typical hero´s-journey. And it´s still a very entertaining read.

Moers is not sold as fantasy-author in germany, because many germans look down on the genre. They sell him as E-literature a german abomination.

And german fantasy indeed lacks often in comparison with the english. There are very good authors in germany just not many in the fantasy genre. Sadly.

But Moers can undoubtedly rival the great ones.

That´s enough Moers-fan-girling I guess ;).

[messem]

And Hohlbein? You got to be joking! There's no bigger Hack than him.

Someone (you!) said "they (German fantasy authors) still do the 355234234 iteration of Tolkien and similar stuff."

I said that Ende, Moers and Hohlbein clearly don't simulate Tolkien. I never said he wasn't a hack. Get you sh.. together.

[Buckwheat]

Walter Moers is a genius when it comes to use of language and worldbuilding, and he can be incredibly funny, but his plots and some of his characters are pretty weak. Half of "City of Dreaming Books" seems to consist of fighting random monsters, then fighting even more random monsters. Fast, entertaining reads, but nothing really great (although they're quite popular among 'literary' circles that would never touch other fantasy novels, due to all the allusions to classic authors and the literary scene)

I loved the Inkheart trilogy as a teenager, don't know how I'd rate the books today. But I felt like the series really came into its own in Inkspell (book 2) when (Spoiler) ... , really enjoyed Funkes worldbuilding.

So maybe you guys might enjoy it even if you didn't like Inkheart. Inkspell and Inkdeath are also a lot darker and much less YA than Inkheart.

...

Kai Meyer has some pretty good YA books.

Moers is really not a "fast" read for me, exactly because of the language for which I have to be quite concentrated to follow. But then German is not my first langauge.

I did not know he was that popular among the critics and such, that is fascinating.

I read the whole Inkworld trilogy when I was a teenager too, I just reread Inkheart recently. Maybe you are right that the other two books are darker and such and I should continue with those, but if they are in the same language style, chances are I will not value them as much as I used to.

What I did like in Inkheart now is that I find Meggie a more convincing 12-year-old than most of fantasy children/teenager characters.

She does not go save the world on her own, she relies on Mo and other adults for about most anything and when she is away from him, most of the time she thinks about where he is and when he will come save her. Which is a lot more realistic than 12-year-olds never thinking about their families once they set out to an adventure and saving the world and defeating the villains themselves. As, for example, in the movie version of Inkheart, that was cheesy as hell in the end.

I remember reading something by Kai Meyer a really long time ago, but none of the specifics and I did not like it much. :dunno:

Dolorous Ned: Don´t you dare, not letting Moers sit besides the great ones. :stunned:

The guy is a language magician and a masterful story-teller.

I´m in love with his tell don´t show approach (yepp he does it the "wrong" way). He does everything we are told is bad storytelling and it comes out amazing.

Ok, his last Buchhaim-book wasn´t up to his usual standard. And he got great backlash for that in germany. Fans were utterly dissappointed. So much, that he felt compelled to make one of his rare (and most of the time absurd) statements...

Still you have to give it to him, the beginning is pure parody of an action-hook. And the theater-play was a typical Moers-experiment.

<snipping the rest of the post for space>

Nah, he does have a point about plots that go nowhere and characters that one cannot engage with. Right now I actually think that the deepest character in there is

Hildegunst in the Abschweifungenin Ensel & Krete. The same character is the only POV in The City of Dreaming Books, written in the first person, and I could not even describe his personality because he scarcely has any.

By last Buchhaim-book, do you mean Labyrinth der träumenden Bücher? So I should not go spend money on that one? I did plan to read it at some point, as far as I know, it is the continuation of Stadt der träumenden Bücher, right?

Ha, those page-long-lists of names are glorious, especially in Schrecksenmeister. Sometimes I do not know what is a real word and what he came up with himself. Re translation, it is possible, but I can imagine it being quite a challenge ... I read most of his books in translation (Slovene).

As a Moers fan, have you seen the interviews with Mythenmetz? They are hilarious. :D

[Neumond]

The books are quite slow and meandering. That´s true (although did you read Rumo?). But to me it wasn´t an issue, I liked his side-stories and the slow pace.

Das Labyrinth der träumenden Bücher is really his weakest book. I liked it well enough but I wouldn´t recommend it. And many fans outright hated it.

The first book does quite well as stand alone. In the second one Mythenmetz revisits Buchhaim as a not as beloved as he thinks snobbish asshole. Perhaps you should await the release of the next book.

The third volume will be released this autumn and you could read reviews, if this one is better and if you need the second one as inbetween...

If you like this kind of humor and want to read something in german. You could try Kracht´s "New Wave", if you haven´t already. The style is different from Moers and not fantasy. But Kracht is just as skilled with the language. And it´s quite strange, too.

The mongolisches Murmeltierrezept could quite well be one of the Schrecksenmeisters dishes ;).

You should try the Blaubär Story if you didn´t already. It´s kind of a compilation of short stories. And the Atlantis chapter is almost entirely lists of made up words. It made me instantly want to visit it. Perhaps without these Kackertratten, they sound awful... :drunk:

The interviews really are hilarious.

Edit: Did you knew of this site? http://www.nachtschule.de/dimensionsloch.html

[Councillor]

Although I'm from Germany, I couldn't name at least one german fantasy book I ended up liking. Everything just seems like copies from traditional stuff such as The Lord of the Rings, especially many of Wolfgang Hohlbein's novels.

Actually, there's one I even liked since it used dragons as a fantasy device in a pretty interesting way: "Dracyr" by Susanne Gerdom; I read it in something like two days. But it's not been translated into English yet, I think.

[Jo498]

Again, Ende's Neverending Story (1979) pre-dates a lot of Post-Tolkien Fantasy and is rather different from 1970s mainstream fantasy.

Moers is very different from almost anything else in SciFi/Fantasy; the closest are other writers with an over the top parodist streak like Pratchett and Adams and the more general "Phantastic" literature going back to the German romantic E.T.A. Hoffmann and others, or even Narratives like the Arabian Nights.

I can understand that someone dislikes Moers (I have not read the last one and I think he has weaknesses too). But it can hardly be denied that he is very original and offering something really different from most mainstream fantasy.

It might also be the case that his brand of humor does not translate well because it is often so dependent on the language, especially the strange names and Anagrams. The Zamonien poets are almost all anagrammatic disguises of famous poets and some of these names are just per se very funny. E,g, "Doelerich Hirnfidler" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_H%C3%B6lderlin). "Hirnfidler" means "brainfiddler" and Dölerich does not mean anything but sounds both ridiculous and still like a possible name (like "Dullrick" or so).

Despite being rather disappointed by the first Inkworld book, I might try the next one if this is better and has nice worldbuilding (because the first one takes place entirely in our world).

[Neumond]

Funke writes children´s books. I loved several books of her as a child. But I would never try to pick one of them up now. It would probably taint my memories ;).

I can understand that someone dislikes Moers (I have not read the last one and I think he has weaknesses too).

I even think most people dislike it. If this humor isn´t for you, if you don´t appreciate writing styles and wordplays, if you´re not interested in worldbuilding. These books aren´t for you. Friends of mine were totally lost with the bluebear. They loved Moers other works (Werner, kleines Arschloch, and some strange sexual education book) and just didn´t get the point of Zamonien.

To the doelerich. I think it sounds somewhat like dödelig. Moers is from NRW and you will find, that many dialects here substitute the g with something else. Most common at the end of a word: ch or sch. (Richtisch!) And the rythm and intonation of dölerich is really close to how one of these dialects would pronounce it. Much closer than even dödelig would be in standard pronounciation... It´s probably just my imagination, but I really associate people from the Pott saying something like döhdelich.

[Jo498]

I actually put the encounter with Moers' fantasy books off for years because I detested the disgusting sophomoric humor and ugly drawing of "das kleine Arschloch". My younger brother kept recommending this stuff to me and finally gave me "Rumo" as a Xmas present several years ago.

I still have not read the first one (Captain Bluebear) and not the Labyrinth. Of the four I read, I found "Ensel and Krete" the weakest, the other three are all quite good and "Rumo" is probably the most accessible.

[Happy Ent]

Moers other works (Werner, […])

Is this a mistake? (Honest question.)

[Neumond]

Is this a mistake? (Honest question.)

Obviously it is. Glad you found it. Werner is of course from this Brösel-guy. Don´t know his full name...

It seems I thought more about which works my friends loved that I didn´t, than which were from Moers...

Sorry for that.

[Jo498]

No, "Brösel", the author of "Werner" is not identical to Moers. But the drawing style and scatological humor are close enough that in earlier times I also tended to confuse "Werner" and "Das kleine Arschloch". The Werner Comics were a few years earlier and became more mainstream, I think, not the least because of the connection with the Flensburg brewery (Flasch Flens)

[Neumond]

Well I blame the high beer-consume per person in germany for the popularity of both Das kleine Arschloch and Werner. :bang:

They do look similar and people often like them both or hate them both. But, while Werner is just infantile.

(At least in my memory, I don´t even know what the story was anymore. Other than a guy with writer´s block and a beer-drinking moped-gang...)

Das kleine Arschloch is... well... completely f***** up...

I think I´m still traumatized by the whole Peppi-incident. :stillsick:

[Jo498]

I am apparently a little too old for "kleines Arschloch" and was almost out of school when it became popular around 1990. But "Werner" was hugely popular already in the mid-late 1980s and I was young enough to be somewhat corrupted by it. Actually, it had an amazing influence and coined some by now very common idioms like "besser is das" and others. It's on the wikipedia page, despite having read some of the Werner comics (my uncle had most of them rather early on) I did not even remember that several common sayings originated there.

[Neumond]

That´s interesting. "Besser is das" is from Werner? I would have never thought that. It´s such a standard phrase...

Edit: I wasn´t allowed neither when they came out. And I probably wouldn´t have understood it anyway ;).

[Buckwheat]

I could not post earlier today due to the board crash, so here ...

Neumond, on 12 Apr 2015 - 8:36 PM, said:

The books are quite slow and meandering. That´s true (although did you read Rumo?). But to me it wasn´t an issue, I liked his side-stories and the slow pace.

Das Labyrinth der träumenden Bücher is really his weakest book. I liked it well enough but I wouldn´t recommend it. And many fans outright hated it.

The first book does quite well as stand alone. In the second one Mythenmetz revisits Buchhaim as a not as beloved as he thinks snobbish asshole. Perhaps you should await the release of the next book.

The third volume will be released this autumn and you could read reviews, if this one is better and if you need the second one as inbetween...

If you like this kind of humor and want to read something in german. You could try Kracht´s "New Wave", if you haven´t already. The style is different from Moers and not fantasy. But Kracht is just as skilled with the language. And it´s quite strange, too.

The mongolisches Murmeltierrezept could quite well be one of the Schrecksenmeisters dishes .

You should try the Blaubär Story if you didn´t already. It´s kind of a compilation of short stories. And the Atlantis chapter is almost entirely lists of made up words. It made me instantly want to visit it. Perhaps without these Kackertratten, they sound awful...

The interviews really are hilarious.

Edit: Did you knew of this site? http://www.nachtschule.de/dimensionsloch.html

I did read Rumo, but I remember it the least of all the books, I do not think it made a big impression on me ...

Okay, thanks for the warning. I might still end up reading when if I find a bit of time because of study-related reasons (I wish my MA wrote itself as easily as posts on this thread :P ).

Is not Mythenmetz being a snobbish asshole after Die Stadt kind of the point? :lol: I like his parts in Ensel & Krete and those interviews exactly because of that (and well, because he throws away The Tin Drum. I hate The Tin Drum).

Thanks for the recommendation ... my to-read and want-to-read lists are too long as it is, but still thanks. :)

Blaubär was the first of his books that I read, I read it in translation and I think it might be the most original as Zamonien was still new back then ...

Is that the Moers fan community? Cool. But then I spend too much time on here as it is, so probably a bad idea to start browsing there too. :P

Jo498, on 12 Apr 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

It might also be the case that his brand of humor does not translate well because it is often so dependent on the language, especially the strange names and Anagrams. The Zamonien poets are almost all anagrammatic disguises of famous poets and some of these names are just per se very funny. E,g, "Doelerich Hirnfidler" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_H%C3%B6lderlin). "Hirnfidler" means "brainfiddler" and Dölerich does not mean anything but sounds both ridiculous and still like a possible name (like "Dullrick" or so).

Whoops, I always read his name as Hirnfindler ... I got the anagram still though. I got most of them, but I had most problems with Perla La Gadeon. I had to help myself with wikipedia for some. But I think these anagrams are really funny, and the descriptions of the poets that go with them.

At least for some of the lesser-known German authors, in the Slovene translation they were substituted with Slovene authors. I remember Ojahnn Golgo van Fontheweg, Dölerich Hirnfidler and the non-German ones stayed as they are in the original, but some others were changed.

Neumond, on 13 Apr 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

I even think most people dislike it. If this humor isn´t for you, if you don´t appreciate writing styles and wordplays, if you´re not interested in worldbuilding. These books aren´t for you. Friends of mine were totally lost with the bluebear. They loved Moers other works (Werner, kleines Arschloch, and some strange sexual education book) and just didn´t get the point of Zamonien.

To the doelerich. I think it sounds somewhat like dödelig. Moers is from NRW and you will find, that many dialects here substitute the g with something else. Most common at the end of a word: ch or sch. (Richtisch!) And the rythm and intonation of dölerich is really close to how one of these dialects would pronounce it. Much closer than even dödelig would be in standard pronounciation... It´s probably just my imagination, but I really associate people from the Pott saying something like döhdelich.

How can anybody be lost with the Bluebear, Bluebear is awesome. :P

I had to google that word. Now I am wondering how much more I am missing because I do not know German slang that well. :wacko:

[Neumond]

:thumbsup: to Hirnfindler. Glad to hear, that the translation was good. I think that´s a great accomplishment.

Is not Mythenmetz being a snobbish asshole after Die Stadt kind of the point? :lol: I like his parts in Ensel & Krete and those interviews exactly because of that (and well, because he throws away The Tin Drum. I hate The Tin Drum).

(...)

I had to google that word. Now I am wondering how much more I am missing because I do not know German slang that well. :wacko:

His attitude is the best about him. (Was denken sie über unsere Literatur? Nichts! Take that self-proclaimed country of poets and thinkers :lmao:. )

And the beginning of the labyrinth is amazing because of that. It´s also a running gag throughout the book.

Don´t worry we natives don´t get it all either...

Because I´ve mentioned them above: Did you get the Kackertratten joke? I love that one. :bowdown:

[mandred torgridson]

Cannot comment on Moers - not up my alley.

Heitz is just awful. Cannot figure out how he managed to get translated into English.

I still have not read Claudia Kern - she is my "last hope" regarding German fantasy. The last thing I tried was the free reading example of "Kryson" - a book that had won the "Hohlbein price" some years ago. Just bad.

Interestingly enough the quality of historical books written by German authors seems a lot better in my opinion.

[Jo498]

Yes, I think I also missed La Gadeon. Fontheweg is easy because the structure of the original name is kept (like Sanotthe von Rhüffel-Ostend) Some of them are really tough... and not all are implicit jokes, but a truly great one is T.T. Kreischwurst ("screaming sausage")

the dadaist Kurt Schwitters, and the other one is of course the romantic Annette von Droste-Hülshoff

Of course, the anagrams are side-jokes, not essential. But they show that Moers is a smart guy and he really loves literature and reading (whereas I am not so sure about that with some of those fantasy writers who offer barely literate role-playing or movie scripts as books...). And the use of re-told stories within the story and similar devices is not merely playing around either. E.g. in Rumo a lot of characters from those narrated stories appear later on in the main story.

As far as the more mainstream German language fantasy is concerned, I gave up on this a long time ago. As I wrote above I read a few by Hohlbein and while not too bad they were not very commendable either and a few related to the German RPG Das Schwarze Auge. My brother keeps ranting how awful Heitz' "Die Zwerge" (The dwarves) was and is ashamed of himself that he kept reading several volumes of this series.

[Buckwheat]

So what I get from those posts, I should not be reading a book titled Der kleine Arschloch? (I did not mean to either.)

I actually put the encounter with Moers' fantasy books off for years because I detested the disgusting sophomoric humor and ugly drawing of "das kleine Arschloch". My younger brother kept recommending this stuff to me and finally gave me "Rumo" as a Xmas present several years ago.

I still have not read the first one (Captain Bluebear) and not the Labyrinth. Of the four I read, I found "Ensel and Krete" the weakest, the other three are all quite good and "Rumo" is probably the most accessible.

Why is Ensel und Krete weakest? I love it because of the Abschweifungen.

Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli Brummli...

:thumbsup: to Hirnfindler. Glad to hear, that the translation was good. I think that´s a great accomplishment.

His attitude is the best about him. (Was denken sie über unsere Literatur? Nichts! Take that self-proclaimed country of poets and thinkers :lmao:. )

And the beginning of the labyrinth is amazing because of that. It´s also a running gag throughout the book.

Don´t worry we natives don´t get it all either...

Because I´ve mentioned them above: Did you get the Kackertratten joke? I love that one. :bowdown:

The translator actually got a translator's prize for Die Stadt. I think she translated one of the others too, maybe Schrecksenmeister ... I think it was Schrecksenmeister.

Yup, the way he throws Goethe away is precious. (I now feel bad for saying I hate Tin Drum exactly today.)

Eh, which ones are Kackertratten? I read 13 1/2 in translation and it was quite some time ago. Are those the creatures

that are like rats and cockroaches and have wings and Bear fights them at some point in Atlantis?

I get the word "Ratten" (rats), but not much more from that word. Some connection to "Kacken"?

Yes, I think I also missed La Gadeon. Fontheweg is easy because the structure of the original name is kept (like Sanotthe von Rhüffel-Ostend) Some of them are really tough... and not all are implicit jokes, but a truly great one is T.T. Kreischwurst ("screaming sausage")

the dadaist Kurt Schwitters, and the other one is of course the romantic Annette von Droste-Hülshoff

Sanotthe von Rhüffel-Ostend is a good one, yep. Also I think the only anagram-ed woman, I think.

I had to google Kreischwurst too, but it makes soooo much sense from the description of his poetry ("Gagaismus" = Dadaismus).

[Neumond]

(...)

Interestingly enough the quality of historical books written by German authors seems a lot better in my opinion.

Almost every genre lit from german authors is better than german fantasy. As sad as it is... I blame the U and E-literature crazyness.

(...)

Of course, the anagrams are side-jokes, not essential. But they show that Moers is a smart guy and he really loves literature and reading (whereas I am not so sure about that with some of those fantasy writers who offer barely literate role-playing or movie scripts as books...). And the use of re-told stories within the story and similar devices is not merely playing around either. E.g. in Rumo a lot of characters from those narrated stories appear later on in the main story.

(...)

The Zamonien-books are essentially experiments with different genres and writing styles and devices set in the same world. (And Kreischwurst is awesome!)

(...)

Yup, the way he throws Goethe away is precious. (I now feel bad for saying I hate Tin Drum exactly today.)

Eh, which ones are Kackertratten? I read 13 1/2 in translation and it was quite some time ago. Are those the creatures

that are like rats and cockroaches and have wings and Bear fights them at some point in Atlantis?

I get the word "Ratten" (rats), but not much more from that word. Some connection to "Kacken"?

(...)

Don´t feel bad how should you know?

Kackertratten: Yeah these are exactly the ones and you got them. I think they are a display of contempt for doves. Doves are sky rats after all, because they s*** everywhere. I´m calling them Kackertratten all the time ;). (Well I hate them bastards so this one rang a bell with me ;).)

When we are at admiring the anagrams:

Manu Kantimel the founder of Gralsunder Dämonologie.

The central question of this science is: How many Teufelselfen (devil elves?) can you place on a needle pike.

It´s of course the great Immanuel Kant. And the question plus answers are quite clever: It is believed, these creatures aren´t measurable at all and it´s not even clear, if they exist. Nevertheless the zamomin found a (slightly wrong) answer to the question through thinking. But Bluebear knows due to scientific methods, that they actually do exist. He even gives an exact scientific solution to it.