Catelyn's a @#%&$ !

[Slinx]

I don't particularly agree with this perception, because I see a difference between not bringing up love for someone and outright hating him. And even if she really "hates" Jon, she never acts on that hatred except being cold to him. He is as well fed as everyone in Winterfell, usually, he even has the permit to sit at the same table at the others. The visit of the king was described as an exception. What else should he want? The only time, she is really cruel is when Jon comes to give Bran his good-bye. I can see why people judge her whole character on these few minutes, but that's because they relate to Jon much more than to her.

Until Ned scared the shit out of her, she seemed pretty avid to get rid of Jon. Then when she got her chance, she took it. All in all, it was pretty petty. I actually hate her for what she did to Ned about this.

She was tired and in a lot of grief when she said that to Jon, but for all we know, it could've been her true feelings that were finally given an outlet. Jon let it go eventually, so no issues.

Jon was fed, clothed and taught because of Ned, not Cat. Jon sat at the high table because of Ned, not Cat. Jon had to hide away from the Lannisters because of Cat. Jon essentially had to go join the Night's Watch because of Cat. So I really doubt Jon was greatly benefited by his relationship with Catelyn.

[oba]

Until Ned scared the shit out of her, she seemed pretty avid to get rid of Jon.

Well, to be fair, Catelyn simply thinks that she mustered up her courage to ask Ned about Jon's parentage. There's nothing to indicate she was "avid" about getting rid of him. The fact that when she asks Ned to tell her who Jon's mother was, he terrifies her, pretty much sent the message home that baby Jon wasn't going anywhere. Again, not something that's going to make her think kindly of the kid. The only time Ned ever frightened her, it was over Jon, etc.

Then when she got her chance, she took it. All in all, it was pretty petty. I actually hate her for what she did to Ned about this.

Jon's the one who was all gung ho about joining the Night's Watch. Remember his chat with Benjen at the feast? Luwin's also the one who brings it up when Ned and Cat are arguing about Jon. Don't act as if Cat threw a bunch of black clothes in a duffel bag and told him to hit the bricks.

Jon was fed, clothed and taught because of Ned, not Cat. Jon sat at the high table because of Ned, not Cat. Jon had to hide away from the Lannisters because of Cat.

(World's smallest violin playing just for Jon Snow). Considering the way other natural children, high born or no, get treated, Jon had things pretty good. Cat herself thinks that she would expect Ned to see to Jon's needs. She just didn't expect him to nor particularly appreciate those needs being met at Winterfell alongside her own children.

Jon as Cinderella and Cat as the wicked stepmother, just doesn't fly. Until I hear that Jon got locked in a dungeon and fed gruel during Greyjoy's Rebellion, I'm going to continue to think that Jon didn't exactly have it rough.

[Red Sun]

Jon was fed, clothed and taught because of Ned, not Cat. Jon sat at the high table because of Ned, not Cat. Jon had to hide away from the Lannisters because of Cat.

Jon sitting at the high table is a privilege not something that he deserves just because of being Ned's son. They could have placed him with the higher ranked of Ned's bannermen or guards and it would not have been a real affront, except for Jon's ego, because that's more or less his real rank. Not my standarts, I think it's fine and dandy that Ned took Jon in as he did and he certainly had his reasons not to send him as a ward to some other place, but treating him this way would have been normal for the kind of setting in ASOIAF.

As for your last points, IMO, it would have been an affront to the Lannisters to have the bastard of the host sit at the same table as them. In this case, it is a question of rank and honor to the guests.

[oba]

As for your last points, IMO, it would have been an affront to the Lannisters to have the bastard of the host sit at the same table as them. In this case, it is a question of rank and honor to the guests.

Exactly. Remember the thoughts about Ellaria Sand's seating at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding and how people might take it? It's a big deal in this society.

[Slinx]

Well, to be fair, Catelyn simply thinks that she mustered up her courage to ask Ned about Jon's parentage. There's nothing to indicate she was "avid" about getting rid of him. The fact that when she asks Ned to tell her who Jon's mother was, he terrifies her, pretty much sent the message home that baby Jon wasn't going anywhere. Again, not something that's going to make her think kindly of the kid. The only time Ned ever frightened her, it was over Jon, etc.

Actually that is completely irrelevant, so read slightly after that:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must of loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. Then she goes on to say that she loved Ned, but never forgave Jon for being around and looking like Ned more so than her own children.

Jon's the one who was all gung ho about joining the Night's Watch. Remember his chat with Benjen at the feast? Luwin's also the one who brings it up when Ned and Cat are arguing about Jon. Don't act as if Cat threw a bunch of black clothes in a duffel bag and told him to hit the bricks.

There is a big difference between being kicked out and choosing the option for yourself. Jon was drunk, remember? Luwin brought up the Night's Watch only after Catelyn made it clear that once Ned wasn't around Jon couldn't stay. Ned couldn't take him south, and Catelyn wasn't strong enough to keep him around her. To go with what you said, Catelyn provided the duffel bag with nothing inside and told Jon to hit the road.

(World's smallest violin playing just for Jon Snow). Considering the way other natural children, high born or no, get treated, Jon had things pretty good. Cat herself thinks that she would expect Ned to see to Jon's needs. She just didn't expect him to nor particularly appreciate those needs being met at Winterfell alongside her own children.

Jon as Cinderella and Cat as the wicked stepmother, just doesn't fly. Until I hear that Jon got locked in a dungeon and fed gruel during Greyjoy's Rebellion, I'm going to continue to think that Jon didn't exactly have it rough.

Yeah, he didn't have it rough. However, I was going against the notion that Catelyn was the one who provided everything for Jon out of all the love in her heart.

So I guess we should play a violin in sympathy for Catelyn?

Jon sitting at the high table is a privilege not something that he deserves just because of being Ned's son. They could have placed him with the higher ranked of Ned's bannermen or guards and it would not have been a real affront, except for Jon's ego, because that's more or less his real rank.

Nope, Ned called him son and said he could sit up high.

As for your last points, IMO, it would have been an affront to the Lannisters to have the bastard of the host sit at the same table as them. In this case, it is a question of rank and honor to the guests.

True, but the only objection we have from the Starks (rulers of Winterfell) is from Catelyn.

[A Time for Wolves]

Until Ned scared the shit out of her, she seemed pretty avid to get rid of Jon. Then when she got her chance, she took it. All in all, it was pretty petty. I actually hate her for what she did to Ned about this.

Don't think I support Cat's attitude to Jon, but in this I put the blame entirely and completely on Ned. I remember disliking the way he scared her into silence when she asked about Jon's mother, and I couldn't stand the way he got all indignant when she asked that Jon leave. Maybe Jon isn't his bastard, we don't know, but Cat thinks he is. Doesn't he understand what she's feeling in that moment? It was awful to berate her as an insensitive woman for wanting to send Jon away. Yes, it was petty and I agree that she should be the "adult" in the whole Jon issue, but when her husband - who's to blame for the whole thing - doesn't show her any empathy or remorse, she's only human and she's going to react to it. I disagree with Cat in many, many things, but on this issue I'm on her side.

[oba]

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must of loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. Then she goes on to say that she loved Ned, but never forgave Jon for being around and looking like Ned more so than her own children.

I'd forgotten about that part. . .

Still, "sending away" would have been akin to Lady Hornwood putting her foot down and having Lawrence Snow raised at another castle. This is not getting exiled to Siberia.

There is a big difference between being kicked out and choosing the option for yourself. Jon was drunk, remember?

Jon had had too much to drink, but the idea didn't just pop into his head. It was clearly something he'd been considering.

Luwin brought up the Night's Watch only after Catelyn made it clear that once Ned wasn't around Jon couldn't stay. Ned couldn't take him south, and Catelyn wasn't strong enough to keep him around her.

Actually, Luwin's the one who brings Jon up in the first place. Ned and Catelyn had just finished discussing which of the kids were staying (Robb) and which were going (everyone else). Luwin's the one who was thinking about Jon.

" 'What of Jon Snow, my lord?' Maester Luwin asked. Cat tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her and pulled away."

No, Cat wasn't going to continue to raise Jon after Ned's gone. I don't think "strength" has anything to do with it. She was just being honest. She could have pulled a Cersei and told Ned that Winterfell wouldn't be the healthiest place for a growing boy named Jon Snow.

To go with what you said, Catelyn provided the duffel bag with nothing inside and told Jon to hit the road.

Benjen's the one who went to Luwin. Presumably, he and Jon had another conversation about it after the feast, or else Benjen's the one with rocks in his head. Jon had plenty of time to sober up, talk to Benjen and go, "Whoo, boy, I really tied one on. I said a bunch of stuff about taking the black. Trust me, it was just the wine talking." He didn't do it.

Ned ends the conversation by saying "I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben."

If anybody did any packing, it was Benjen and Ned, not Catelyn. She just kept quiet, because she wasn't exactly sorry to see him go.

So I guess we should play a violin in sympathy for Catelyn?

What do you think I've been doing?

[Enguerrand]

Well why dont you point out some non existant examples of her comprimising skills, also her being forced to except decison made by other people isnt a comprimise.

Trying to accept Jon as part of her household.(Really just about every noble woman would get extremely pissy about this.) And Catelyn definitely could have played hardball over the issue. It's a slight not only on her but her family as well.

Negotiating the passage at the twins and the Frey’s allegiance. You think she wants to have her children married to the Frey’s get?

She pleads with both Renly and Stannis to resolve the conflict peacefully through a great council offering Robb’s abdication.

The release of Jaimie, who has crippled her child.

And that is just on top of my head.

[Slinx]

Benjen's the one who went to Luwin. Presumably, he and Jon had another conversation about it after the feast, or else Benjen's the one with rocks in his head. Jon had plenty of time to sober up, talk to Benjen and go, "Whoo, boy, I really tied one on. I said a bunch of stop about taking the black. Trust me, it was just the wine talking." He didn't do it.

Ned ends the conversation by saying "I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben."

If anybody did any packing, it was Benjen and Ned, not Catelyn. She just kept quiet, because she wasn't exactly sorry to see him go.

Bravado from a kid, who would expect it?

I think it's pretty clear that Jon would've stayed at Winterfell for at least several years more but Catelyn cut it short. Benjen provided an option, and Ned was forced into picking between a rock and a hard place. He was pretty damn angry at Catelyn for stating that Jon wouldn't be allowed to stay at Winterfell.

Still, "sending away" would have been akin to Lady Hornwood putting her foot down and having Lawrence Snow raised at another castle. This is not getting exiled to Siberia.

True, but Ned wasn't expecting to come back to the North for quite a few years. And then what for Jon?

What do you think I've been doing?

Playing the race card!

Nah, seriously though Catelyn's hatred of Jon has no rationality to it. She hates Jon for coming from another woman, succeeding over Robb sometimes, living at Winterfell, looking like Ned, and because she isn't strong enough to get over it.

She can blame Ned for the affair, but really she doesn't really have a moral high ground to stand on when it comes to her treatment of Jon.

"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Wintertell.

It seems Jon was friendly with most, got along with his siblings, and was being groomed for command along with Robb; so what exactly would make his stay at Winterfell be miserable?

He was at the door when she called to him. "Jon." she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

Just an example of Catelyn's coldness towards Jon.

[cybroleach]

Jon had had too much to drink, but the idea didn't just pop into his head. It was clearly something he'd been considering.

He only started to consider it after Yoren told him at the feast that women dig men in the NW, which for a young vergin is a powerful motivator whihc would have been at the same feast when Jon was drunk.

On a side not people keep saying how unacceptable it was for Ned to keep his bastard at Winterfell, Howver there are many other lords who do this so its not some crazy notion of Ned Stark but appears as common as sending the child away. House Caron, House Velyrion, house Frey, house Hewett all keep there bastard family with them in their holdings.

[oba]

On a side not people keep saying how unacceptable it was for Ned to keep his bastard at Winterfell, Howver there are many other lords who do this so its not some crazy notion of Ned Stark but appears as common as sending the child away. House Caron, House Velyrion, house Frey, house Hewett all keep there bastard family with them in their holdings.

Walder Frey keeps everybody around.

We also don't know the particular dynamics surrounding the others.

Was Aurane Waters raised at Driftmark? Does the appellation Bastard of [insert name of Castle] mean that you were brought up there, or just that you've been acknowledged as the by-blow of the ruling Lord?

[oba]

It seems Jon was friendly with most, got along with his siblings, and was being groomed for command along with Robb; so what exactly would make his stay at Winterfell be miserable?

Catelyn's telling Ned to look at the situation realistically. Leaving Jon at Winterfell causes nothing but friction. Robb would have to choose sides between Jon and his mother. Jon would have to stay at Winterfell knowing he's the cause of this friction. Cat is in the position of seeing Jon all the time while 4 of her own kids are in King's Landing.

Like Luwin says, every one in that situation will have to make sacrifices when Ned accepts the Handship.

Ned's rationale for not taking Jon with him to court is, basically, that Jon will be "shunned" because he's "[a] boy with a bastard's name. . .". This seems somewhat shallow to me. At some point, Jon's going to have to deal with the fact that his surname is Snow, not Stark. This is what Donal Noye tells him at the Wall.

[side note for R + L= J fans: more of Ned's interesting turns of phrase when it comes to Jon, BTW. "boy with a bastard's name"]

Cat points out to him that, like it or not, Jon's not her son. Ned's leaving her in charge. Not one of her finer moments, but Ned, once again, has not really thought this one through. "Gee, honey, I'm taking four of your children with me. But, hey, I'll leave my illegitimate son here with you." Great idea.

Well, it's the example of Cat's being mean to Jon. The two clearly did not have much interaction over the years. She'd never called him by his name before.

[A Time for Wolves]

Catelyn says that she loved Ned, but hated Jon for

1) being her husband's bastard

2) looking more like the Starks than her own children

3) excelling at most things and being equal to, or better than, Robb

This is one of my biggest problems with Cat. Despite being such a brave woman, she's almost cowardly in that she doesn't have the guts to test her husband's love for her by really confronting him about Jon. Instead, she takes out her resentment and bitterness on a child, who really has no control over whether or not he's a bastard. I would have respected Cat a lot more if she told Ned exactly what she thought of him, even if it ruined their marriage. She loved Ned, true, but the main reason why she never really fought with him about Jon was because she was afraid of finding out that he didn't really love her. She was afraid of pushing him, and although I do partly blame Ned for that (his reaction to the Ashara Dayne), I also wish she took a stand and stood up for herself instead of meekly accepting her lord husband's decisions and then venting her pent up anger on Jon.

[Slinx]

Catelyn's telling Ned to look at the situation realistically. Leaving Jon at Winterfell causes nothing but friction. Robb would have to choose sides between Jon and his mother. Jon would have to stay at Winterfell knowing he's the cause of this friction. Cat is in the position of seeing Jon all the time while 4 of her own kids are in King's Landing.

Actually, three kids. So what you are saying is that Catelyn admits she will be a bitch and attempt to drive out Jon?

[oba]

Actually, three kids. So what you are saying is that Catelyn admits she will be a bitch and attempt to drive out Jon?

Being a bitch towards Jon and being a bitch in general are two different things.

I've never tried to construe Cat's treatment of Jon as being "fair". It's unfair to Jon, but I understand it. In the same manner, if Ned had his reasons for bringing Jon to Winterfell and not telling Cat the details of his parentage, it's not "fair" to Catelyn, but I understand that, too.

Cat admits just what she says. That Ned won't be doing Jon any favors leaving him there. She doesn't say anything about "driving him out."

She hasn't played the role of "step-mother" for 14 years. Why is she going to suddenly start now? And under those circumstances? Bearing the brunt of 14 years of repressed anger is not something I'd wish on Jon or anyone else.

To his credit, Ned is sharp enough to realize that Cat, Robb, and Jon trying to co-exist at Winterfell without him and the other Stark kids around is not all that logical.

In any event, Maester Luwin interjects with a proposal before Ned and Cat really start getting into it. Stupid maesters, always spoiling good fights. :mad:

[Slinx]

This is one of my biggest problems with Cat. Despite being such a brave woman, she's almost cowardly in that she doesn't have the guts to test her husband's love for her by really confronting him about Jon. Instead, she takes out her resentment and bitterness on a child, who really has no control over whether or not he's a bastard. I would have respected Cat a lot more if she told Ned exactly what she thought of him, even if it ruined their marriage. She loved Ned, true, but the main reason why she never really fought with him about Jon was because she was afraid of finding out that he didn't really love her. She was afraid of pushing him, and although I do partly blame Ned for that (his reaction to the Ashara Dayne), I also wish she took a stand and stood up for herself instead of meekly accepting her lord husband's decisions and then venting her pent up anger on Jon.

Actually, she first confronted Ned about Jon's mother's identity. Then she tried to get rid of Jon.

I've never tried to construe Cat's treatment of Jon as being "fair". It's unfair to Jon, but I understand it. In the same manner, if Ned had his reasons for bringing Jon to Winterfell and not telling Cat the details of his parentage, it's not "fair" to Catelyn, but I understand that, too.

Cat admits just what she says. That Ned won't be doing Jon any favors leaving him there. She doesn't say anything about "driving him out."

She hasn't played the role of "step-mother" for 14 years. Why is she going to suddenly start now? And under those circumstances? Bearing the brunt of 14 years of repressed anger is not something I'd wish on Jon or anyone else.

I doubt Ned was expecting Catelyn to play mother to someone she tried to ignore the existence of.

Her admission to herself that 'Ned wouldn't be doing Jon any favors by leaving him behind' is merely her own rationalization of her behavior, not exactly evidence. There is no known hatred towards Jon except that of Cat. So what exactly would be harmful in leaving him at Winterfell? Only conclusion is that Cat would try to get rid of him herself.

So then what you are actively trying to prove? I liked her POVs and only thought she was a bitch towards Jon.

[A Time for Wolves]

Actually, she first confronted Ned about Jon's mother's identity. Then she tried to get rid of Jon.

She let Ned intimidate her into accepting Jon. She wanted to save her marriage, which is understandable, but it was at the cost of her own self-respect and peace of mind, which was destructive not only to her but also to Jon, because he then had to bear the brunt of her resentment.

[oba]

Catelyn says that she loved Ned, but hated Jon for

1) being her husband's bastard

2) looking more like the Starks than her own children

3) excelling at most things and being equal to, or better than, Robb

Jeez, I'm coming off as the world's biggest Catelyn apologist here, but I don't think the above is entirely accurate.

1) being her husband's bastard. She thinks to herself that she would have forgiven Ned a dozen bastards, as long as they were out of sight.

2) looking more like the Starks than her own children. She doesn't think that she hates Jon for this, just that it makes his continued presence that much harder to take. It adds insult to injury. The injury is that he's there at Winterfell in the first place. The insult is that he's a dead ringer for Ned whereas her sons are not.

3) excelling at most things and being equal to, or better than, Robb.

Well, we've only got Jon's pov for this, in which he thinks that Catelyn gave him cold looks whenever he bested Robb at anything. This is Jon's interpretation of the situation. Cat may have looked at him coldly 24/7. She may have done her best not to look at him at all. No two people view the same accident the same way.

For example, in Theon's pov we learn that Robb loved and admired Theon like an older brother but that Jon resented Theon. Theon also thinks that Catelyn resented his presence there, too. I think Theon and Jon are both acting like broody teens in this instance. They both felt out of place at Winterfell, and both seem to project a lot of this onto Cat.

It might be true, but I don't put much stock in it. I mean, where did Cat find the time to raise her own kids if she's so busy aiming dirty looks at Jon and making sure Theon knows his proper place.

I thought the more telling point in Jon's recollection was that Cat made sure that Robb knew Jon could not become Lord of Winterfell. That's the part that stuck with Jon.

This is one of my biggest problems with Cat. Despite being such a brave woman, she's almost cowardly in that she doesn't have the guts to test her husband's love for her by really confronting him about Jon.

Family, duty, honor. In ASoS, Cat thinks to herself how she's always done her duty and what was expected of her. Accepting the match to Brandon. Marrying Ned after Brandon's death. Not really confronting Ned over Jon (until the beginning of AGoT) just seems to fit in with this. It's another one of the things I like about Catelyn's character. She recognizes this about herself. She's aware that she's had to repress a great deal in order to keep doing what she thinks she's "supposed" to do.

As far as the Ashara Dayne thing. I've never been married. I have, however, had a romantic relationship in which exes became a definite source of tension. This young woman and I had gone out before and then broken up. It was a matter of circumstances and geography as opposed to compatibility. We remained friends, but, when we decided to get back together romantically, we found that we knew just enough about who we'd been involved with in the interim to create a lot of unspoken tension. Things got a lot better once things were finally out in the open. I can definitely sympathize with Catelyn on that one.

Look at Ned's reaction when Cat brings up her age when she was betrothed to Brandon. Ned still can't shake the comparison thing between him and his brother and Cat didn't show up at Winterfell with Brandon's child in tow! I think people are applying a bit of a double standard here.

Anyway, it's a tough spot to be in, and, yes, there are certain questions you're afraid to ask and issues you're afraid to push, because you're ambivalent. It's a source of tension, but you're not all that confident you want to hear the answer.

Again, I found this to be a very realistic portrayal.

[Slinx]

She let Ned intimidate her into accepting Jon. She wanted to save her marriage, which is understandable, but it was at the cost of her own self-respect and peace of mind, which was destructive not only to her but also to Jon, because he then had to bear the brunt of her resentment.

His home, his rules. And if she was so intimidated, why would she pressure Ned to get rid of Jon?

She only let it get destructive for her, I doubt she was told by other people to act that way.

[oba]

So then what you are actively trying to prove? I liked her POVs and only thought she was a bitch towards Jon.

Well, the thread started out as a Catelyn's a bitch. I'm just saying that, in the one instance in which her behavior is pretty bitchy, there's a reasonable explanation for it. It doesn't excuse it entirely, but it explains it.

A person acting bitchy in a specific situation, doesn't make that person a bitch.

I don't think we're really saying anything too different from each other there.