Catelyn's a @#%&$ !

[Alannys]

Count me in as a Catelyn lover as well. I always liked her rational and level-headed way of looking at things. I also admire her fierce loyalty and love for her family, even her crazy sister.

[Khamul]

I don't like her. While she's a very three-dimensional character, and very realistic, she has made so many mistakes that I really just cannot like her. Yep, I understand what she's gone through, and I appreciate that most everybody would have gone bonkers by it, but that doesn't change my opinion. But! She's interesting to read about (even if I skip some of her grief-filled internal monolouges).

[A Time for Wolves]

People can deny it certainly but I agree with you. I wouldn't use that word myself but there are numerous times in the books when Catelyn says something abrasive "perhaps too sharply." She is just an abrasive person. This is understandable with her trials and tribulations but that doesn't change the fact that she is abrasive and hard to be around.

This will offend some people but it's been said before. I think the Catelyn hate comes from people who have trouble with their own mothers and don't see their ideal mother in Cat. I know it's part of the reason I'm not a big fan of hers.

Yeah she is abrasive. I don't "hate" Catelyn, I just find her irritating because I think she does make some irrational decisions that trigger the war, she interferes where she shouldn't, and she, like you said, is abrasive. I'm not a Catelyn hater, but I do have a problem with her.

[DeliriousEdd]

Outside of her treatment of Jon, I have absolutely no problem with Catelyn. There is no excuse for what she said to Jon and whatever guilt she may have had later I don't think it was anywhere near as much as she should have felt.

That said, why all the hate? I don't mind that she's abrupt and abrasive at times. She is one of the heads of House Stark in the middle of a war which directly effects all of her children. I don't mind when she tells men that they're acting like idiots when they are acting like idiots.

Many of her decisions have had tragic results, there is no arguing that fact. However, most of her decisions that I can recall were rational and defensible based on the information in her possession at the time of the decision. How much better off would the Starks be if Robb took half of her advice? I think Robb proved to be an a$$hat as someone else has already stated. Releasing Theon and the marriage debacle are just the top two unforgivable blunders made in spite of the information he had at the time of those decisions.

Regarding the end of AFFC, I really like Brienne and I hate the way events have played out. UnCat's conclusions about Brienne are understandable but I think the situation required more questioning before stringing up both Brienne and her companions. I don't give unCat a pass because she died. I'm very anxious to see more of her in the future volumes and find how much of Cat is still in there.

[oba]

Outside of her treatment of Jon, I have absolutely no problem with Catelyn. There is no excuse for what she said to Jon and whatever guilt she may have had later I don't think it was anywhere near as much as she should have felt.

I'm not saying you're in this category, but that statement about Catelyn's guilt struck me.

I recall several defenses of Jaime pointing out the instances in which he expresses some guilt over his defenestration of Bran.

It sometimes seems like a character we're supposed to think of as "bad" reveals that he's not completely amoral and he's on the path to forgiveness and redemption.

A character we're supposed to think of as "good" does something bad, and can never quite do enough to make up for it.

Again, I just think it's interesting.

[DeliriousEdd]

I'm not saying you're in this category, but that statement about Catelyn's guilt struck me.

I happen to be in the "equal opportunity condemner" category You'll see no defense of Jaime coming from me I assure you. Pushing Bran out of a window requires much more than guilty feelings (which he hasn't shown) to achieve redemption and certainly more than the teenage, self-centered angst Jaime is currently experiencing.

For Cat, there's no excuse for what she said but had she shown some serious remorse and regret I could have forgiven her. If Jaime sacrifices his life to save 50 or more children, I'll entertain thoughts of redemption.

[Tears of Lys]

This will offend some people but it's been said before. I think the Catelyn hate comes from people who have trouble with their own mothers and don't see their ideal mother in Cat. I know it's part of the reason I'm not a big fan of hers.

Too true. It's very clear to an unbiased observer that that's the case.

When you hear the hatred expressed toward Cat on one hand, and then the admiration of how "clever" Littlefinger is and how he rules, it's really clear as to why the world is as screwed up as it is. I guess it's the old dislike of authority figure.

[DanteGabriel]

Too true. It's very clear to an unbiased observer that that's the case.

When you hear the hatred expressed toward Cat on one hand, and then the admiration of how "clever" Littlefinger is and how he rules, it's really clear as to why the world is as screwed up as it is. I guess it's the old dislike of authority figure.

There have definitely been posters on Catelyn hate threads who almost make me want to sit them down on a couch and ask them about their mothers.

I say "almost" because I am afraid of what horrible drivel would drip out.

[Mr Lynx]

There have definitely been posters on Catelyn hate threads who almost make me want to sit them down on a couch and ask them about their mothers.

I say "almost" because I am afraid of what horrible drivel would drip out.

I feel that some people who dislikes/hate Catelyn will reconsider their opinion of her when they have children of their own.

[Ser Hot Pie]

I don't understand either the Cat or Dany hate.

[oba]

There have definitely been posters on Catelyn hate threads who almost make me want to sit them down on a couch and ask them about their mothers.

I say "almost" because I am afraid of what horrible drivel would drip out.

I feel you on that one.

[A Time for Wolves]

It might be that the Catelyn haters feel that way because it's indirectly connected to their experiences with their own mothers. I never thought of that until Jon Targaryen mentioned it. I'm not a Catelyn hater and I do empathize with her, but I also disapprove of some of the things she's done.

And the hypocrisy over Jaime and Catelyn is very true. People are very eager to forgive him. I personally don't, but I do like the person he is starting to become.

[valyriansword4sale]

I must be in the minority but I liked the RW. Seeing an end to Robb and Catelyn was worth anything in my opinion. Both characters seemed marginally sharper than Cersei in AFFC. They had both screwed so grandly that they had to die.

As for Catelyn being a cunt or a douche bag or a bitch, of course she was. But cant blame her, she was written that way. She chose one course than switched than made bargains behind the backs of others. She arrested Tyrion on flimsey LF evidence, that pretty much set things in action then didn't want to stay the course when she didn't like the war. Wanted her daughters back and fuck anyone else who had a stake in the rebellion.

Now that she is dead at least we dont have to listen to her sanctimonious inner thoughts, and I kind of like the idea of her wandering around with the BWB taking puny revenge on anyone they can. Hope that Randyll Tarly gets ahold of them, rope and trees for all.

I think it should be screwed up so badly. If I dont start proof reading I will be the new OsRaven incarnation.

[Ser Herold]

Catelyn is a bitch. It should have been you Jon remember that one? I was never able to stomach that woman. Although perhaps as an undead she can redeem herself by killing off all Freys.

Oh yeah, I for got about that one. damn, that pissed me off. Jon was awesome though and took it like a man. I myself probably would've struck her.

I'm not saying you're in this category, but that statement about Catelyn's guilt struck me.

I recall several defenses of Jaime pointing out the instances in which he expresses some guilt over his defenestration of Bran.

It sometimes seems like a character we're supposed to think of as "bad" reveals that he's not completely amoral and he's on the path to forgiveness and redemption.

A character we're supposed to think of as "good" does something bad, and can never quite do enough to make up for it.

Again, I just think it's interesting.

Y es, I notice that now that you've brought it up. Very interesting, indeed.

And that's one of the reasons I love ASoIaF. none of the characters are completely bad or good.

Oh yeah, I for got about that one. damn, that pissed me off. Jon was awesome though and took it like a man. I myself probably would've struck her.

Y es, I notice that now that you've brought it up. Very interesting, indeed.

And that's one of the reasons I love ASoIaF. none of the characters are completely bad or good.

Sorry about that "took it like a man" part. If anyone took it as sexist, please excuse me.

[Xerxes]

What are you doing quoting your own post!?! You could have easily made it a double post, and increased your post count

I don't think the phrase "took it like a man" is particularly sexiest

There's an implied negative alternative i.e. taking it like a woman, but it's certainly not the only way too approach it.

It really depends on how you define 'man' in the phrase "like a man." If you take being a 'man' and being male as two different things, it doesn't have to be sexiest at all.

For example, it's impossible to beat your wife "like a man" because a real man wouldn't beat his wife, etc.

[Ser Herold]

What are you doing quoting your own post!?! You could have easily made it a double post, and increased your post count

I don't think the phrase "took it like a man" is particularly sexiest

There's an implied negative of alternative i.e. taking it like a woman, but it's certainly not the only way too approach it.

It really depends on how you define 'man' in the phrase "like a man." If you take being a 'man' and being male as two different things, it doesn't have to be sexiest at all.

For example, it's impossible to beat your wife "like a man" because a real man wouldn't beat his wife, etc.

Thanks for the tip on doubling my post count ( I'm new to the forum), and thanks for your view

[cybroleach]

What are you doing quoting your own post!?! You could have easily made it a double post, and increased your post count

I don't think the phrase "took it like a man" is particularly sexiest

There's an implied negative alternative i.e. taking it like a woman, but it's certainly not the only way too approach it.

Well there are alternatives, to woman there like taking it like a boy, or taking it like a baby.

[Slinx]

Whenever I double post it merely combines into the previous post.

With that said, I like Cateyn's POV for the people we meet through her and because she's pretty ballsy at times.

She doesn't trust Walder Frey or Renly Barethon yet goes as Robb's representive. Her freeing Jamie isn't in that class though, since it's born from grief.

[SquireThomas]

Frankly, I think you can put a lot of the Cat/Dany hate down to strait-up sexism. Cat gets harped on constantly for saying one nasty thing to Jon. Granted, it was a pretty mean thing to say, but lets take a look at what what some widly admired characters have done:

Jaime: Murdered a small child (he meant to kill him, intent is what counts here), directly caused the war by fornicating with his sister and then plotting with her to murder the king. Killed a whole bunch of Ned's men because he had a temper tantrum. Don't give me this redemption bullshit, if he hadn't lost his hand, he'd still be doing exactly what he was doing. He may be whining a little now, but THE MAN THREW A SMALL CHILD OUT OF A WINDOW! How can you possibly compare one bitchy comment on Cat's part to this?

Hound: Unrepentant, vicious killer. Killed Micah, laughed about it, probably killed dozens of other people.

Littlefinger: The biggest bastard of all, caused the entire war because of his pathetic obsession with a girl he couldn't have. Is now trying to mollest her daughter.

Where are the "I hate Littlefinger" threads? Or "I hate Jaime"? People especially certain young male fantasy readers, just get antsy when women are in authority figures. When Robb fucks up (which he did many, MANY times), people just kind of gloss over it, but when Cat makes a mistake, you get comments like this:

Catelyn is too much of a mother to be involved in war. A good for nothing but bitching and worrying mother.

Sexism, pure and simple. And don't even get me started on the Dany hate.

[The Squisher Queen]

What are you doing quoting your own post!?! You could have easily made it a double post, and increased your post count

I don't think the phrase "took it like a man" is particularly sexiest

There's an implied negative alternative i.e. taking it like a woman, but it's certainly not the only way too approach it.

The phrase *could* be sexist, in that there's no female equivilent for us when we have to suck things up and "taking it like a woman" has a negative connotation of being weaker/less favorable a way to deal with things. But no it's not the only way. In this case "taking it like a man" would just mean to me "man" as opposed to "child" or taking it with dignity or being stoic about it, sucking it up, etc

I like that you stopped to analyze this