Catelyn's a @#%&$ !

[Slinx]

Well, the thread started out as a Catelyn's a bitch. I'm just saying that, in the one instance in which her behavior is pretty bitchy, there's a reasonable explanation for it. It doesn't excuse it entirely, but it explains it.

A person acting bitchy in a specific situation, doesn't make that person a bitch.

I don't think we're really saying anything too different from each other there.

Got ya.

So we agree that Catelyn was a bitch to Jon, but not a bitch in general?

Let's go start some other hate thread. This time you lead the hate with really vicious attacks, and I'll be the defender.

[oba]

Got ya.

So we agree that Catelyn was a bitch to Jon, but not a bitch in general?

Let's go start some other hate thread. This time you lead the hate with really vicious attacks, and I'll be the defender.

Works for me. Who's a character you like? I'll do my level best to make with the hate. . .

[A Time for Wolves]

2) looking more like the Starks than her own children. She doesn't think that she hates Jon for this, just that it makes his continued presence that much harder to take. It adds insult to injury. The injury is that he's there at Winterfell in the first place. The insult is that he's a dead ringer for Ned whereas her sons are not.

Hate was the wrong word here. I meant to say resentment

This is Jon's interpretation of the situation. Cat may have looked at him coldly 24/7. She may have done her best not to look at him at all. No two people view the same accident the same way.

For example, in Theon's pov we learn that Robb loved and admired Theon like an older brother but that Jon resented Theon. Theon also thinks that Catelyn resented his presence there, too. I think Theon and Jon are both acting like broody teens in this instance. They both felt out of place at Winterfell, and both seem to project a lot of this onto Cat.

It might be true, but I don't put much stock in it. I mean, where did Cat find the time to raise her own kids if she's so busy aiming dirty looks at Jon and making sure Theon knows his proper place.

I thought the more telling point in Jon's recollection was that Cat made sure that Robb knew Jon could not become Lord of Winterfell. That's the part that stuck with Jon.

You have a point there. I'm not saying Jon's feelings or Theon's feelings didn't color their interpretation of Cat's behaviour, but Jon in particular is perceptive and I think he would instinctively understand something like a look from Lady Stark (which is how he thinks of her) in his way whenever he succeeds at something Robb doesn't. Remember, he forgave Cat for wishing him dead. I don't think he was being sulky when he interpreted Cat's stares as resentful and unfriendly.

Family, duty, honor. In ASoS, Cat thinks to herself how she's always done her duty and what was expected of her. Accepting the match to Brandon. Marrying Ned after Brandon's death. Not really confronting Ned over Jon (until the beginning of AGoT) just seems to fit in with this. It's another one of the things I like about Catelyn's character. She recognizes this about herself. She's aware that she's had to repress a great deal in order to keep doing what she thinks she's "supposed" to do.

That's my problem with her. That's exactly my problem with her. She takes 'Family, Duty, Honor' too far, she submits to what she considers her "duty" even when she doesn't have too...and yet she sometimes makes the most absurd decisions (arresting the queen's brother on flimsy evidence being number one, although releasing Jaime was also very rash). There has to a balance somewhere.

She shows again and again that she is capable of thinking for herself and standing up for what she believes is right, but always, always at the wrong time. And when she really needs to stand up for herself (like when she's being cheated on), she just lets it pass. Seriously. She lets it pass. Cat just goes on loving and forgiving her husband after he not only insulted her by siring a bastard (or at least claiming to), but also brought that bastard home, raised him right in Cat's face, and scared the shit out of her when she tried to protest. I wouldn't put up with that, let alone be so sweet to my husband after it.

Look at Ned's reaction when Cat brings up her age when she was betrothed to Brandon. Ned still can't shake the comparison thing between him and his brother and Cat didn't show up at Winterfell with Brandon's child in tow! I think people are applying a bit of a double standard here.

I never felt Ned was apologetic enough about Jon, especially considering there is the "shadow" of Brandon between him and Cat, just as Cat feels the "shadow" of Jon's mother between them. Ned doesn't seem to feel it as keenly as Cat though...but then again, he doesn't have the result of that relationship running around Winterfell.

Again, I found this to be a very realistic portrayal.

Even the Cat haters can't argue that And as I'm not a Cat hater, I don't even want to argue it. I always thought that Cat, Tyrion and Ned were the best POVs, although Sansa's is starting to shape up even better than Ned's. Cat is one of the best developed characters, which is why she's also one of the most debated.

[Slinx]

Hmm, we both like Ned, so can't do that.

Too much Dany hate already.

There isn't enough Tyrell hate.

I don't particulary care for Sandor Clegane or Jamie Lannister, so I suppose we could start a new hate for one of those.

I suppose we could go with a double standards thread.

[Ser Herold]

certain young male fantasy readers, just get antsy when women are in authority figures.

I think its when females have authority.

[Slinx]

Even the Cat haters can't argue that And as I'm not a Cat hater, I don't even want to argue it. I always thought that Cat, Tyrion and Ned were the best POVs, although Sansa's is starting to shape up even better than Ned's. Cat is one of the best developed characters, which is why she's also one of the most debated.

Sansa getting less boring? More likely Littlefinger is making Sansa's POVs seem less boring.

[oba]

I suppose we could go with a double standards thread.

Double standards it is. Do you want to start it, or should I?

[Ser Herold]

I said in an earlier post "took it like a man" and then i apologized to any one who found it sexist. now sexism has completely tied into this topic. kinda funny

I think its when females have authority.

whoops. i meant:

I think its cool when females have authority.

[oba]

I said in an earlier post "took it like a man" and then i apologized to any one who found it sexist. now sexism has completely tied into this topic. kinda funny

Board Butterfly Effect, maybe?

Honestly, charges of sexism come up a lot on threads related to Catelyn and Dany.

[Slinx]

Yeah, go with the double standards thread. You start it up.

[scorpio2006]

Let me give my two cents here. Catelyn raised all her children well, and I can't blame her for the way she treated Jon. He isn't her blood, and she didn't have any responsibilities towards him. She was cold, but because she perceived his presence to be a threat to her...she was prejudiced by the views of her society towards illegitimate children. Notice, though, that she didn't try to pass on that prejudice to her children. All her children have good relationships with Jon, except for Sansa, but she was impressionable that way. I understand that Jon is a great soul and all, but parents still wield great influential powers over their children, especially in their formative years. The fact that all of them(except for Sansa) grew to like Jon and didn't break their relationship with him means that Cat didn't have an agenda to ostracize Jon from the rest of the family. Also, I agree with the fact that Cat/Dany hating is spurred by sexist sentiments. Really sad, and pathetic if you ask me.

[Enguerrand]

She shows again and again that she is capable of thinking for herself and standing up for what she believes is right, but always, always at the wrong time. And when she really needs to stand up for herself (like when she's being cheated on), she just lets it pass. Seriously. She lets it pass. Cat just goes on loving and forgiving her husband after he not only insulted her by siring a bastard (or at least claiming to), but also brought that bastard home, raised him right in Cat's face, and scared the shit out of her when she tried to protest. I wouldn't put up with that, let alone be so sweet to my husband after it.

Then again you don't live in the middle ages, where your husband can legally beat you when you get uppity and have the final say in all legal and economical matters. Ned is her lord and husband in this world it IS her duty to obey him. This is the only instance where he pulls rank on her. Ned rules his family with a light touch, but Catelyn have no more power then what he chose to bestow upon her. Catelyn’s only option is to wage a passive-aggressive campaign against him, like Cersie does to Robert, or possible appeal to her family for the slight upon her honor but it would destroy the marriage and lead to endless misery, so she does what a good wife is supposed to do, obeys in silence, but resents it.

[SquireThomas]

People like this really bother me sometimes..

With their o i can't see other peoples POVs so their sexist, or racist or just dump, or must have had an unhappy childhood. The irony here is your the one stero typing everyone who has fellings against your beloved characters.

Sorry man, but look at the numbers. Look at Luke's posts towards the beginnings of this thread. When you see 10x as many threads bashing a character with relativly minor sins like Cat's then multiple characters who are child-murderers, sociopaths or both, something's gotta be up.

So Cat is a marginally better person than Jaime, LF and Sandor (Dany not so much). That doesn't exactly make her a saint , she talks down to everyone in the series but Ned, she very forceful and lacks comprimising skill. Then her actions while with the best of intentions most of the time are reckless and destructive. But apparently its a sin to critasize Cat becuase she your fav and everyone else is a sexist.

Did I ever even say Cat is my favorite? I'm defending her because a lot of the criticisms leveled against her here are unfair and yes, sexist. That fact that you think that Cat is "marginally" better than child-murderers says it all, really. The Hound could have easily let Micah go and claimed he got lost or something: sure, he would have gotten shit for it, but I really doubt anything that serious would have happened. But the Hound would never do that, because it's obvious he enjoys killing.

Let's move on to another favorite: Tyrion. He murders Shae for what: sleeping around? She's a whore, FFS, did he really expect her to stay faithful to him for ever and ever? She told him what he wanted to hear because he paid her well, but Tyrion is smart enough to know that there's no real love there. He even tells himself this multiple times throughout his relationship with her. But when he gets right down to it, he kills her anyway. Oops. How about poor Symeon Silver Tounge? All he ever did was get too close to Shae and tries to make a little extra money, and he gets a sword in the back and eaten. Oh yes, and then he kills his own dad. Slap on the back.

Now, I actually really like Tyrion. He's one of my favorite characters. But you can't deny the guy's done some bad, bad things, and the fact that everyone's somehow cool with this while endlessly harping on Cat for being mean to her husband's bastard, of all things, strikes me as bizzare and irritating.

As for the sexism argument, that's just ridiculous. It often seems like a very easy way not to have to take other people's arguments seriously and should for that reason be used with care. I agree that there are a lot of people who just seem to hate her and Dany and other characters without providing any arguments what so ever for it but sometimes it's just difficult to know why you feel a particular why about a certain character.

No man, it's really not. I've been on this board for ages, and the amount of shit I've seen thrown at Cat has to be twice as much as any other character, except maybe Dany. Can you give me any reason for this other than sexism?

[Daena the Defiant]

Let's move on to another favorite: Tyrion. He murders Shae for what: sleeping around? She's a whore, FFS, did he really expect her to stay faithful to him for ever and ever? She told him what he wanted to hear because he paid her well, but Tyrion is smart enough to know that there's no real love there. He even tells himself this multiple times throughout his relationship with her. But when he gets right down to it, he kills her anyway. Oops. How about poor Symeon Silver Tounge? All he ever did was get too close to Shae and tries to make a little extra money, and he gets a sword in the back and eaten. Oh yes, and then he kills his own dad. Slap on the back.

He strangles her for betraying him - she gave false testimony at his trial, remember.

Plus the shock of when he finds out thst she's schtupping his father.

[Antacid]

OT:

Let's move on to another favorite: Tyrion. He murders Shae for what: sleeping around?

Another (much more serious) thing Shae did was give false evidence against Tyrion in his trial. That trial was quite literally for his life, and Shae did actually lie comprehensively about her relationship with him and totally assassinate his character in public, when she might have given evidence that would have helped him. So it wasn't just about Tyrion's Daddy issues.

She's a whore, FFS, did he really expect her to stay faithful to him for ever and ever? She told him what he wanted to hear because he paid her well, but Tyrion is smart enough to know that there's no real love there. He even tells himself this multiple times throughout his relationship with her.

Er... maybe. He wonders what the hell he thinks he's doing several times, but I don't remember him considering that she might betray him outright. IIRC, most of his anxiety over Shae centres on trying to hide her from his father and sister. What's funny is that because of Tyrion's lecture to Jon in AGOT about seeing things as they really are, many Tyrion apologists behave as if this flaw of his doesn't exist... and then smack Sansa or Catelyn around for behaving in exactly the same way.

Now, I actually really like Tyrion. But you can't deny the guy's done some bad, bad things, and the fact that everyone's somehow cool with this while endlessly harping on Cat for being mean to her husband's bastard, of all things, strikes me as bizzare and irritating.

Ditto Dany. Try arguing with someone whose chief criticism of a character is that they're "too perfect" The debate goes:

1: Dany is such a Mary Sue.

2: She's not! She's done several things wrong (lists them)

1: God, Dany is such a BITCH!

2: But her mistakes can be explained by (lists reasons for Dany's actions)

1: Yeah, Dany is SUCH a Mary Sue!

[geordie]

I agree that the vitriol against various female characters - particularly Catelyn, Brienne, and Dany, have to be partly because of sexism. While I think Catelyn made a lot of serious errors, that seems to be her role, in part, in the books - she's a catalyst (no pun intended, I think) for a lot of action at various points. Brienne is one of my favorite characters - as is Dany. As I am new to this forum, I can't quite understand why people would dislike either of them - I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is because they are women in power. Dany, in fact, is at 14 or 15 showing much more natural ruling ability than anybody other than Jon.

As to Tyrion murdering Shae, it was because of her multiple betrayals - not just sex with his father, that in itself almost completely unforgivable emotionally since she knows what his father did to his first wife (I think), but for god's sake, she testified falsely against him and helped put his head on the chopping block. It's manslaughter rather than murder, though - clearly no planning for that crime.

[A Time for Wolves]

Ditto Dany. Try arguing with someone whose chief criticism of a character is that they're "too perfect" The debate goes:

1: Dany is such a Mary Sue.

2: She's not! She's done several things wrong (lists them)

1: God, Dany is such a BITCH!

2: But her mistakes can be explained by (lists reasons for Dany's actions)

1: Yeah, Dany is SUCH a Mary Sue!

I had a similar argument with a friend once, who insisted that Dany was too perfect and not realistic. Mary Sues are my pet peeve, but I don't think she's one - Jon comes closer than she does, actually. She's a strong and believable character, even if I don't find her too interesting.

[Maybe]

I had a similar argument with a friend once, who insisted that Dany was too perfect and not realistic. Mary Sues are my pet peeve, but I don't think she's one - Jon comes closer than she does, actually. She's a strong and believable character, even if I don't find her too interesting.

A bit off topic but Jon doesn't really count either though, he's screwed up quiet a bit (even disregarding his vows in the Night's Watch). He still has real anger issues, hates any academic work and spends his time mentally scoulding himself. He may be good and heroic, but he certainly isn't perfect.

[A Time for Wolves]

A bit off topic but Jon doesn't really count either though, he's screwed up quiet a bit (even disregarding his vows in the Night's Watch). He still has real anger issues, hates any academic work and spends his time mentally scoulding himself. He may be good and heroic, but he certainly isn't perfect.

I know. I said "he comes closer", not that "he is" a Mary Sue, or rather a Gary Stu. He's comes closer because he fulfills those characteristic Stu traits of being extremely good-looking, highborn but with a rather tragic past, loved by many of the "good" characters and hated by many "bad" characters (I know the exceptions, I know), a leader, and is a fairly exceptional person. He's too real and he's definitely not a Gary Stu - nobody in ASOIAF is, for which I'm very grateful. But he comes pretty close.

Edit: the reason he's closer to the Sue/Stu image is because there are more characters who like Jon. Dany has more enemies than friends. That's changing for both of them now, of course.

[Kat]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this argument that hasn't already been said.

GRRRRRR! ARRRRGH!

at all the Catelyn hate.