Earth Ice and Fire Magic - It's in the Genes

[Lady Barbrey]

I've been trying to make sense of the different magics in the series and have come up with this theory that accounts seemingly for everything. It also makes the family trees a lot more interesting. Its about magical genetics. Perhaps something like it has been posted before. I'm new so don't know but if you've heard this before it might be worth refreshing in light of World.

Certain bloodlines seem to have more magical affinities than others.

The Targs with Fire magic (dragon bonding, fire resistance). The First Men with Earth magic (warging, skin changing, green seeing). The Northern First Men might have affinities with Ice Magic (the Crasters can turn into Others, and it's been hinted that a - possible Stark - Lord Commander - the Night King - did too).

Somewhere these genetic affinities for magic entered a bloodline either by semi-interspecies sex or some kind of blood magic ritual. But only some families, likely originally one family for each gene, originally carried these genes. The more the families intermarried with selves or other families with the same gene, the stronger they kept the ability, and the better the chance the children would carry it.

The dragonlords of Valyria seemed to know this because they practiced incest to keep the gene strong. Craster in the North practicing incest seemed to know or have been told this and guaranteed the sacrificed children could be turned into Others by marrying his own daughters to guarantee the babies would get the gene. Somewhere in Craster's geneology someone carried the Ice gene, likely a Stark, distasteful as that might seem.

Then there is earth magic. The Starks might not have known about the Earth magic when they carried off the Warg Kings daughters as concubines but they mainly have married cousins so the gene would be frequently carried anyway and it would be strong in them.

Why the Starks for Ice Magic? A few things: there must always be a Stark in Winterfell sounds like it might have been part of a pact with the Others. Also, once the change has happened, the Others are necromancers. The tradition of placing iron swords on Stark graves to keep them there sounds like it might be based on experience. Then we have the story of the Night king, hinted to be a Stark, who marries his cold maiden amidst a lot of necromancy. We've also got a Stark daughter that returns with a baby, presumably the Bard's but who knows. There are all kinds of little hints that just keep building.

That leaves us with a world where any family that descended from the First Men have at least a remote chance of carrying the Earth Magic gene if their ancestors married someone who carried it. The gene might not be very strong if they do carry it. But this accounts for all the skinchangers and wargs we hear about that don't seem to be related - somewhere in the past they all shared a common ancestor with the Earth magic gene. In families that intermarry a lot with cousins, such as the Starks, the gene is stronger and the more likelihood of carrying it.

The Earth magic gene did not start with the Starks. It started before them and led to the Warg King and his people, likely others as well, who were killed off by the Starks before Starks mixed bloodlines with Warg women.

But I think the ice gene did start with the Starks,entering their bloodlines with the Night King.

So then anyone descended from a Stark has a chance of carrying the gene but it will likely be strongest and most frequent in the Starks themselves because of cousin marriages. We don't know much about this gene because I suspect it initially only gives the ability to convert and few have done so. Once the conversion takes place, however, necromancy seems the main power along with spreading and killing with cold.

Targaryans have the most chance of carrying Fire Magic genes because of intermarriage and the Doom, but there is still a chance that any descendents of the dragonlord families if they still survived could bond a dragon. Aegon, for instance, could possibly bond a dragon even if he is not a true prince, as long as he really does descend from the Blackfyre Targaryans. It's less likely for him than Daenerys because Blackfyres likely married out more often. And even Targaryans didn't always carry the gene through years of intermarriage as it could skip people if there was even one out-marriage in the tree no matter how far back. The Martell boy likely didn't have it or it wasn't strong. Ben Plumm probably does have it but who knows if it is strong. How strong it is would vary. It is obviously very strong in Dany.

Any descendent of a First Man could possibly carry an Earth Magic gene and after thousands of years that could be quite a few including the folk that have since married into the Andals. But it might not be very strong even if they do carry it so it doesn't manifest. It could be possible for many in Westeros except Andals who only married Andals, really slim chances for Targs who married out rarely and when they did it was usually to Martells (little First Men blood) and Arryns (less FM blood than most), less chance in Dorne except among the stoney Dornes such as the Daynes.

What's really interesting to me is that there is only one person in Westeros that likely carries all three magics (child of 3) - Jon Snow. Fire, Earth and Ice.

Bloodraven carries Earth through his Blackwood mother, and Fire through his dad.

All the Stark kids carry Earth and probably Ice.

Dany carries Fire. Maybe something else too I won't get into here.

The family trees get really intriguing once you start looking on them with this in mind.

I also think Bloodraven's presence - as fire and earth - and Bran's presence - as ice and earth at the weirwood make for a compelling combination that leads to all kinds of interesting speculations about what they may channel through Jon.

Lastly, I don't know what happened to Uncle Benjen or if he was Cold hands, etc., but I think there's a really good possibility he is an Other now. It's in his genes.

[walkingWITHcersei]

That Craster's kids become Others is still a theory that's far from proven. Yes i know the show went that direction with it, but there's no more evidence for it in the books than there is for the theory that the kids were being eaten by the Others. The wife in CoK does refer to them as "the brothers", but before that we also hear that Craster gives them animals as well since there aren't enough babies to keep up with the ever increasing number of Others Craster must placate. Don't know which way the books will go as of yet. The show choosing that path means little to nothing to the books.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You are ignoring things like the water magic of the Rhyonar and the seeming air magic going on with the weather. Its common for magic to be considered in the 4 Aristotelian elements, Earth, Fire, Water and Air. Ice is just another form of water and as we know the Children seem to be adept at using all of these as they commune with nature.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

snip

:agree:

That's where my mind is at aswell.

I think it't possible either the Starks or the Boltons were on "team others" during the long Night, since it says in the world book that the conflict began during the Long Night.

You are ignoring things like the water magic of the Rhyonar and the seeming air magic going on with the weather. Its common for magic to be considered in the 4 Aristotelian elements, Earth, Fire, Water and Air. Ice is just another form of water and as we know the Children seem to be adept at using all of these as they commune with nature.

Actually ice is a subset of earth and water in the Aristotelian elements, iir the symbol correctly

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

It doesnt have its own symbol I dont think its 'cold' and is a transition between Earth and Water like Hot is between Fire and Air. Aristotle seeing that heating up stuff makes it a gas, like freezing makes a liquid a solid.

[Lady Barbrey]

That Craster's kids become Others is still a theory that's far from proven. Yes i know the show went that direction with it, but there's no more evidence for it in the books than there is for the theory that the kids were being eaten by the Others. The wife in CoK does refer to them as "the brothers", but before that we also hear that Craster gives them animals as well since there aren't enough babies to keep up with the ever increasing number of Others Craster must placate. Don't know which way the books will go as of yet. The show choosing that path means little to nothing to the books.

I honestly and with respect disagree, though I understand where you're coming from. The producers are departing in some core political and social areas. I just can't see them departing from the storyline when it deals with the underlying mythos regarding magic and the Others, which will contribute too much to the series' climax drawing many threads together. This was a true spoiler to me. I think the producers realized that the show, and George's books, were not giving enough to the storyline about the Others, and put them front and center with this teaser. That scene per se might not crop up in George's books, but that Craster's kids get turned will do so, in some shape or form,probably in a storyline involving Gilly's baby.

I don't see where giving up a horse makes a difference. Just means there are no babies but better to leave something than nothing. Craster likely believes he's sacrificing his sons to the gods to become gods. But I still believe he has to have the right bloodlines or the kids would just freeze and be useless as wights. We hear of strange people sacrificing to strange gods in the north. But if just anyone could become an Other rather than a wight we'd hear of that too, and there'd be no need to bother lone Craster so far south when there would be plenty accessible farther north.

[Lady Barbrey]

You are ignoring things like the water magic of the Rhyonar and the seeming air magic going on with the weather. Its common for magic to be considered in the 4 Aristotelian elements, Earth, Fire, Water and Air. Ice is just another form of water and as we know the Children seem to be adept at using all of these as they commune with nature.

Yes but I'm ignoring them on purpose. This is the song of ice and fire! My confusion in this book relates to mixing up Earth Magic with Ice Magic - I kept trying to comprehend warging and green seeing and skin changing and the Others as somehow related to fight each other or Dany. But the Ice Magic is completely different from Earth Magic, necromancy, cold, dark.The Starks as Kings of Winter are associated with all those things in legend and climate but the kids don't manifest any of them. Instead it's all about living trees and animals. So what has to happen to manifest the ice magic affinity gene? There has to be a conversion.

We've seen stories about water magic both with the Rhoynar and possibly the Iron Men. There might even be Air Magic in the Storm Lands. I believe there is definitely Blood Magic, but Im not sure you need a blood"line" for that, more the right spells and that the sacrifice or bondee has the right bloodlines for the particular magic you want to perform.

But my main focus is on Jon is likely the only person born with three magics, Earth, Fire, and Ice, and how that might play out.

[Lady Barbrey]

:agree:

That's where my mind is at aswell.

I think it't possible either the Starks or the Boltons were on "team others" during the long Night, since it says in the world book that the conflict began during the Long Night.

Actually ice is a subset of earth and water in the Aristotelian elements, iir the symbol correctly

Yes, though I'm not sure the Starks had been "turned" yet. Carrying that bloodline might have been what was demanded in a pact for The Last Hero to save Westeros from the Long Night. Any family the Starks have married into since would carry the genealogy but it was likely swamped out for most people and not all would have manifested it anyway, just carried it. I think the Dustins might have a strong share of it. Now we know why Lady Dustin was so het up about her husband's body not being returned. The whole Dustin house is about barrow kings, graves and lords that look like corpses.

I love what you've both said about the elements. Because if Jon has Ice Fire and Earth Magic, he actually has air and water magic too, making him the perfect Ragnarok sacrifice to rebalance the elements, right the seasons and save the world.