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Lady Barbrey

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  1. Lady Barbrey

    Name the Parents

    Aegon= Septa Lemore+Unknown Blackfyre (possibly Varys if he lies about cutting) Dany=Aerys+Rhaella Tyrion=Aerys+Joanna Jon=Rhaegar+Lyanna And to add: Allyria=Brandon+Ashara Lanna=Illyrio, who was Gerion Lannister+Sailors Wife. Because her parents were seemingly married, she might end up heir to both the Lannister and Baratheon Lordships.
  2. Lady Barbrey

    Wake Dragons From Stone = Sword in the Stone

    That's interesting because we were just speculating that the fat man whose fingers had to be cleaved off for his rings was Illyrio. The mummer is Varys, his partner is Illyrio, and if Illyrio is a dragon as some suspect, he did meet up with Quentyn though dead.
  3. Yes, and I think Aerys tells us that when he first holds Rhaenys, sniffs and says 'she smells Dornish'. He's looking for dragon rider blood and there might not be any left in the noble families, giving us a good indication of how special Dany is.
  4. Lady Barbrey

    If Danny truly wants a Targaryan dynasty!

    Agree about Dany (I avoid writing her full name - just a word of commiseration and advice to the OP). She won't sit idly by, but then, Aegon didn't strike me as someone who would sit on the sidelines waiting for her to die either. He's been groomed his whole life for the kingship. I think we're in for a fight where Dany's best intentions will once again be put to the test as she sees what her hordes do to Westeros. So true about Willas. If I'd been Sansa I'd have snapped him up if only to get out of KL. What do you think Oberyn knew?
  5. Lady Barbrey

    The Others and the Sidhe

    Ha, don't get me started on Ragnarok. I've read a few theories but they get too specific in a tale as mythically entangled as this one. But I do think He's taken the basic structure from the Norse, which is why I'll point out that while the sun and the earth, heaven's, people, gods and giants come from Ymir, Ymir himself comes from the ashes of Muspelheim and the slow icy drip of a poison river. Fire and Ice (he is later called a Frost Giant). I only insist on this difference because I think it related to the crucial problem and end game of the series - the irregular seasons. But That's another theory in itself. There's a thread by sweetsunray where she describes all the symbolism of Winterfell to the land of the dead, an underworld or "other"world. I think she has the word chthonic in it if you want to search. In Tad William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, which was a major inspiration for this series, there is also a long winter caused by the Sidhe/Norns who had been dispossessed from their lands and homes and they wanted them back and revenge at the same time. I don't know if Martin will follow that story line (he often does follow the same tropes as Williams though treats them so differently they don't copy) or do something completely different for his own version of the Sidhe, the Others, if only because he has so publicly acknowledged his debt to Williams. We will see!
  6. Lady Barbrey

    The Illyrio/Aegon thing

    Another good catch. I think It's him and he's dead. You know, something that might help nail the Gerion is Illyrio so he's dead is The Sailors Wife and daughter Lanna. Unfortunately I can't do Search Westeros so will have to look this up in the books when I'm home. It seems pretty pointed that Lanna is a Lannister and people have thought she might be Tyrion's child or Gerion's. But Yna says she tasted the Sailors Wife's blood and the husband she's been waiting for is dead. I never doubt this kind of thing, so that means it isn't Tyrion. If It's Gerion, then he's dead. So what I want to find out is whether the chapter Yna said she tasted the blood and he's dead comes before or after the chapter where we surmise Illyrio is dead, the hands cleaved off, in a timeline. Honestly, that will kind of nail it for me if so, both that Illyrio is dead and that he was Gerion Lannister. Because why bother with these hints unless that's true. If either you or @Lollygag have access before I do and can tell what the timeline was, I'd sure appreciate it. Edit to Add: I looked up chapter order on Feast for Dragons, the combined books, and according to it, The Merchantman chapter comes before the Yna thing. So she is right: the Sailors Wife's husband really is dead if he was Gerion and Gerion was Illyrio. So, Lollygag, you better link me to your theory about Gerion, cause I'm ready to buy it, have some more support for it, and if we accept that's who he is, we have a pretty good idea of what Varys was doing for him in Westeros. Undermining Tywin to begin with, and isn't it amazing how many in line of inheritance to Casterly Rock have died, disappeared or been disallowed this past fifteen years. Varys's hands are all over at least half of them.
  7. That's my anxiety mostly, that the quality will go down, maybe not for Winds but the next one, because I'm starting to age and my memory is already not what it used to be and I'm decades younger than George! The series is an extremely layered production. I know George is a genius but there are a lot of threads to tie up for the last book. I hope he has good help in the continuity area not only with the plot and characters but the symbols and parallels he has so generously textured the series with. I do think the series has the potential to become a classic but not if it can't be brought home, and age does unfortunately factor in. So for George's own posterity, I hope he can write the last one more quickly than this one.
  8. Lady Barbrey

    A Question about Skulls

    Very interesting, Seams. The Brienne example was the most clear to me because I saw her journey through the Riverlands as a journey through the Wasteland, or the underworld, on her way to meet Hel (Lady Stoneheart), who is of course guarded by hellhounds, Biter and Lem in Hounds clothing, but Brienne barely survives the attack. Ilyn Payne most clearly is the executioner/death as symbol, and I wonder what it means that Brienne has brought his relative with her? It could mean anything, of course, but I think it means death for someone other than Brienne. It's kind of creepy, too, that Ilyn Payne executed Ned, and now here's his relative to face the merciless widow. Widow's Wail. Too many symbols packed in here. Regarding Arya and her own trip to the underworld under the Red Keep, I found it interesting that the role of Hel for her is taken by Varys/Illyrio, her guide is a cat, Balerion, and the watchdogs are dragon skulls. And when she emerges the dragons are friendlier. Will Varys/Illyrio prove personal demons to Arya, or was that just to show us that these two snakes at the foundations of the Red Keep were responsible for its disruption, they're the devils in the foundations. And they're guarded by dragons as hellhounds suggesting one or both are dragons? Regarding Sansa, the Hel in that scenario should be Ilyn Payne, who will shortly behead her father, but in fact he is paired with Sandor as Hound, so we're introduced to two hellhounds before the real devil or demon of Hel arrives, Joffrey, responsible for the deaths of Ned and Lady. And just like Arys's dragons becoming friendlier, the hellhounds can sometimes be tamed, as in the Hound. Have you looked at open mouths or maws as entrances to underworlds/other worlds, because of your gatekeeper symbolism? I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that going through doors described as mouths take people to an Other World. Arya goes through a dragon's mouth, Dany goes through an actual mouth door on her way to the Undying, the Black Gate is a mouth. In Norse myth, the original meaning of frost, fire and stone giants is "devourers". When these trips begin in a mouthlike portal, I think we're given a clue to a character's trip to an otherworld. But it won't be the same death or evil entity they encounter on the other side, but according to location and the character him or herself. You know, this might have some predictive strength. Whenever we see two hellhound types paired by skulls or just hound symbolism, we should look to see who comes next, the real enemy revealed for the character undergoing an underworld parallel trip. Back to skulls - along with death, of course, they are also a symbol of Asgard (made from Ymir's skull) so divinity and immortality. I think you are right that in dreams or visions they might be a portent of death but also resurrection. But they also can serve semi-independent roles too. Those skulls reminded me of Heart of Darkness in Bittersteels's case. The skulls serve as warning, barrier, and entrance into another world - here there be monsters. Just like the hellhounds, but on solider ground symbolically. In the Whispering Skull scenario, I think It's a reference to Mimir and Bran the Blessed, but I'd have to read it again as I'm not sure this one fits the others.
  9. Lady Barbrey

    The Others and the Sidhe

    According to Wikipedia: (In Irish mythology, the Milesians were the humans who became the final inhabitants of Ireland.) Underground or behind the Wall? And the Otherworld sounds a fit abode for the Others. Craster's sons as offerings? Not named directly - simply "The Others"? Or White Walkers? Fits the Others to a tee. So why do I think they are engaged in defense? Another thing they engage in is: Craster's sons again? "Winter is coming." To go a bit further, what may have awakened them? Who knows what the wildlings have been up to up there? But after eight thousand years, I'd wager some of their knowledge of the Others has been lost, and they may have inadvertently trespassed on or even ruined some lands or property of the Others. There's a host more material on the sidhe in hundreds of books, so I think there's likely to be a lot more information to be found there, if anyone's interested. Thank you for providing these quotes! What strikes me are George's use of the term The Free Folk for the Wildlings (as a riff on The Fair Folk?) and Winterfell itself described symbolically as an otherworld over or underworld and over again. The underground cold crypts, the implications Stark ancestors might rise. We always get these connections of the Others to the Starks or Wildlings but other than, " there must be something in the blood" we know very little more. For me the underlying structure comes from the Norse, where the world is actually made from the body parts of a giant, itself made from fire and ice. These elements came first, and at the end of the World, Ragnarok, they emerge as chaotic forces wanting to take back what was theirs in the first place. They're coming home. Dany and dragons,( leading Red Priests, the Dothraki and Unsullied from Essos, (Musspelheim), and the Others from the Land of Always Winter (Jotunheim). What are Dany's reasons not to stay in Essos Once she has carved out a queendom there? She wants to go home; Westeros is hers by right. I expect we'll find out the Others have similar reasons, particularly if the Children created, then almost destroyed, then banished them. And that echoes very much with the Sidhe. So are they coming because someone has disturbed their homes in the far north, or because the time is right to take back their original home? I'm betting on the latter, but we will see!
  10. Lady Barbrey

    Winterfell - the Heart of Summer?

    The red rose has universal symbolic meaning, though, so when the symbol is being used you have to look at it in terms of that meaning too. If it were a blue rose, then use George's meaning, but you can't do that with everything. George does use some colour symbolism in patterns of his own making but I have yet to see someone come up with any consistent structure. Brienne's blue eyes don't make her an Other. You have to look at context.
  11. Lady Barbrey

    Winterfell - the Heart of Summer?

    I'm not sure there was a Bran the Builder, but there were people with powerful magic building defenses for different purposes, and likely at different times. Why were the Others made in the first place? To fight humans or fire humans? Why were the dragon riders made? To fight humans or ice humans? Which came first - I don't know - but you can definitely see this arbitrary cycle in the seasons. The Wall was made by fire people, with the help of Children, humans, and giants, to protect the realm from the Others - to contain ice magic to the North of it. The Winterfell crypts were made by ice people, with the help of Children, humans and maybe giants to protect the realm from fire people - to contain the hot springs, fire magic and, I suspect dragons. Storm's End, I don't know. But fire people did not make it with dragonfire or Mel would have felt her magic increase there. OTOH, dragons land there comfortably. It might protect against all spells. We don't have enough data. The Hightower base, however, because it is made of fused black stone, might be found to protect against Others. We will see. I think Euron is being directed by an Other greenseer or ice seer. Euron and his warlocks might meet an unforeseen obstacle if they aim at the Hightower. A big question I have is how do the Undying fit here. It's almost like they are worshipping a corrupted Heart of Winter, and maybe with the destruction of their ice caps, that's all they've got left. I don't want to go too far into your symbolism, except to point out you need to look at each symbol's context. Sansa is being indoctrinated - winter child seduced by solar court and the big red rose of romance. Reverse Persephone. That rose is her pomegranate seed. But I do agree absolutely about a little fire in a lot of ice, or a little ice in a lot of fire. The Others are incapable of animation without life force of fire, maybe found in human blood, and the Valyrians without a little ice in the bloodline, like Aerys, or Aerion Brightflame, consume themselves with fire and madness.
  12. Lady Barbrey

    Winterfell - the Heart of Summer?

    Actually not Dawn imo, Jon is the Philosopher's Stone, product of the alchemical wedding. What is the Philosopher's Stone? Lots of things are associated with it and the Grail, but mainly - transformation of one substance to another, and resurrection to life equivalent to resurrection of spring. He's both. The Grail is associated with Christ, but according to many its antecedents are pagan, the Fisher King symbolism and fish in general as a symbol of the sacred can't be traced in Christianity, and Christianity itself has no Fisher King legends, these came from pagan ritual, appropriated as a "secret sign" in Christianity as the ichthus, and writers picked up from it from there. So its history is muddied, but in literature since early 20th century it became much more heavily connected with the "wasteland" motif because of TS Eliot's poem The Wasteland, and his voluminous notes extracted from a little publication called From Ritual to Romance by Jessie Weston (you can find it on Project Gutenberg since it was published in 1920). Weston's book got a lot of bad press because she took Fraser's idea of a corn king or vegetation deity being sacrificed and reborn in connection to the seasons and restoring the land and made a case this was the original Grail story. But whatever her merits as a scholar or soundness of her theory, writers since Eliot found the idea of the wasteland compelling and it has become a huge part of literary tradition since - think Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now as just one example. Recently, we got the Holy Blood, Holy Grail book and The DaVinci Code, but these ideas have been around for a lot longer. The idea that the Holy Grail is connected in some way to 'kingsblood', for instance, is older than the premise of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, that it is connected to a bloodline from Jesus. It is connected rather to a bloodline from a semi-divine "corn king" through sacrifice to ensure the seasons are regulated - that the spring will come again after winter. Jon is literally called a "corn. king." by the ravens so I think we can conclude a few things from this: 1) He is of some original 'kingsblood' ancestry that can restore the seasons through sacrificial death and resurrection. 2) His birth signals a hope that the land, the wasteland of the Riverlands now that was so evident in FFC, and bad things to come for the rest of Westeros, can be healed, as can the Fisher King line of Tully's, ultimately Bran, because they're connected. The book starts with the maiming of Bran. This signals the wasteland motif beginning. Catelyn, as part of the Fisher King family, rejects Jon - this too is her symbolic rejection of the Grail. She fails to ask what is his nature - the Grail question - because she is blinded by grief and prejudice. But her "it should have been you" is in a sense correct, because Jon as corn king is the one that should die and be resurrected, but that gets displaced to Bran as Fisher King. We've therefore got the two myths of Corn King and Fisher King intersecting and displacing, and that is actually historically true of the Fisher King myth according to Weston. It is a version of the Corn King myth that displaces it with a maiming instead of death and resurrection. And this is associated with the land as well. As long as Bran is maimed, the land will die, unless and until Jon dies and is resurrected - as the Corn King. Jon might go through a few deaths and resurrections till the right one happens, for all I know, but as the Grail he holds out hope for Bran and Westeros of healing. The Grail and Philosopher's Stone are often conflated in literature - the search for the unobtainable, the emphasis of converting lead to gold is that of converting winter to spring, the idea of life everlasting, in the Grail story a spiritual transformation cycle tied to the land, in the Philosopher's Stone, a physical transformation tied to the body and to elements. But it is a stone (and in some stories, so is the Grail). That's why all the references to oily black stone, stones falling, stones being worshipped, meteorites and transformation. Its primary purpose is to take base elements, like lead or mortal humans, and transform them into something wonderful, like gold or immortal semi-divine humans. The philosophers, or alchemists, wanted this transformation, but their alchemy was focused on creating the stone itself, that would be able to do these things. So they experimented, and couched their experiments in coded language. What would create the stone was a marriage of opposites, this was the "alchemical wedding". The marriage of the red king to the white queen. This produces the stone. The marriage of fire, Rhaegar, and ice, Lyanna, produces the stone. Jon is the stone. The stone is capable of transforming base elements into gold, or transformation, period, of some thing or things into something else. So that's why we get this ongoing metaphor in the books of a sword in the, or of the, stone, or a stone itself that served some special transformative purpose. But if we think of Jon as both the Grail and the Stone, which are conflated in literature anyway as often the same thing, what you get is a human being capable of saving the world, restoring the seasons, healing his brother and the land, through a transformation of elements like fire and ice, the Valyrians and the Others, into something more incredible, or I would argue, back to something human. One human bloodline - the Corn King or kingsblood bloodline - already transformed into the semi-divine of Valyrians and Others and in doing so they maimed the bloodline, maimed the seasons. Jon's sacrifice will be to transform them back. I don't know if I expressed this well, hiemal, I've got too much background stuff on this in my head, and I'd have to sit down and do a proper essay to do these ideas justice - and that's just simply too much work! I'll let those working on a master's do it, I already have mine in lit, and don't relish writing more long essays. As for the cauldron, it too is often conflated with the grail but it's from a different tradition entirely. George might play with it a bit but it doesn't have the same kinds of connotations as the Grail and Philosopher's Stone, which he is using heavily. Regarding Dawn, I see it as "made of the same stuff" in a way to the human "stone", the Last Hero, and it might provide a funnel or catalyst of sorts in the same way Jon's blood might. Dawn is interchangeable with the Sword of the Morning; it is a Sword of the Morning. But what does that mean? To me, it was made of something rare, then forged into a weapon that brought the dawn. That's the Last Hero being forged. That's Jon being forged. But while the Last Hero was forged of fire to bring back the day, Jon is forged of ice and fire to bring back the proper seasons. I therefore think if there is a Sword symbolic of balancing the seasons, and Jon himself, it needs to be a song of ice and fire just like he is. Is that Dawn? Very possibly, if it pre-dates the original sundering of one greenseeing bloodline into Others and Valyrians. And that's possible, because It's held by the Daynes, the ones never changed into dragon riders as far as we know. But if Dawn was the Sword of the Last Hero, if Dawn is Lightbringer and so was the Last Hero, then it and he brought the Morning but didn't balance the seasons. And if that's the case, we symbolically need a new sword forged from Night and Day, Ice and Fire. So Dawn is either: 1) Lightbringer, symbolic of the Last Hero, who ends the Long Night, but does not fix the seasons; or 2) Dawn as representative of the Dawn age, a bloodline pre-ancestral to Others and Valyrians, symbolic of when seasons were normal and bloodlines not split If Dawn is #1, it's symbolic of Dany and Lightbringer, not Jon. In which case we need another Sword forged from Fire and Ice for Jon. If Dawn is #2, then it will possibly be the Sword Jon wields, but there is another contender: People believe I think that we must have original Ice not a Valyrian sword to play a role or be symbolic of Jon, but I think Ice, Ned's sword, is a good stand-in because It's made with fire but it has been quenched in the blood of northerners and tempered in that black icy pool, representative of ice magic, for generations. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail assume a new importance if you think of it like that. Assuming the last to be true, what does it mean that they are twinned? (Does Jon have a secret twin? Or just representative of dual-sided nature?) Will they need to be reforged as one, or will one be okay? You can see why people get so obsessed on the Sword threads.
  13. Lady Barbrey

    My Cold Hands Theory: Jon Snow

    No worries, I won't be rude. I actually think that could be dramatic and tragic at the end, Jon lonely on his elk, the world destroyed, he's the only one left except the Children and Others and everywhere snow, snow and nothing else, making attempts to change the ending by going back in time. Is that why you think he's time travelling, by the way, to change the outcome? I also think there is something happening with the time-space fabric in places where great magics have been done, such as the Bridge of Dreams, but for now that's the only clue we have in the books to any kind of time magic. So I can see it, but I don't believe time travel will play too large a factor in the book. It will be something very difficult to do, if it can be done at all, and it definitely won't allow for a "reset" of some kind, although I have played with idea that all these POVs are in the weir network and Bran has to isolate one event, just one, that could mean a better outcome, and interfere with that person's past to do it. The world's survival rests on a 10 year old to make a choice kind of thing. Still, I don't think it will come down to this either, it's just a bit too simplistic. I think Coldhand's throat has been cut, that's why the voice, and his face is likely decomposed. That's why he hides it so as not to scare the children, not because they might recognize him. But hey, who knows?
  14. Lady Barbrey

    The Illyrio/Aegon thing

    Oh yeah, I meant sneakily go after and kill Bittersteel now that he was within reach, and as for Daemon doesn't he say something like his mother will weep if I kill him? But I take your point on not wanting another stronger heir to take his place. That makes sense.
  15. Lady Barbrey

    The Illyrio/Aegon thing

    I think we can think of the "gold" of Casterly Rock being the children of Casterly Rock as well. We've certainly got enough animal and sword stand-ins where people are not just called but identified as wolves, swords of the morning, just maids, lions etc. The twins are called golden, their armour is gold, their colours gold, so though we might think 'lion' when we think of Lannisters, we also think "gold". Not saying this is the interpretation, but can't rule it out because prophecy specifically speaks with these kind of symbolic stand-ins. The Valyrians might well have thought "gold" themselves, but it could well be a golden Lannister (or more than one) that brings about the doom of men. Certainly their incest caused the crisis in Westeros, and if Gerion is Illyrio we have another piece of gold from Casterly Rock to blame for rebirthing dragons, Dothraki hordes, the Unsullied and the Golden Company converging on Westeros, just as big a threat in some ways as the Others. Interesting that It's the Doom of Men, not the Doom of Valyria, that was predicted to come from this gold. I was thinking about Illyrio perhaps being a pirate - the fat man whose rings must be cleaved off was among pirates on a pirate ship- and about him lying to Tyrion he can't make sea voyages. Was that because he didn't want him to know he was in Westeros, or because he is or was a notorious pirate? I was interested that a Corsair King was making himself known in the Basilisk Isles recently. Illyrio is a wealthy man but this could well be where he got his start, and we know he's a slaver, so maybe he keeps his hand in. It was really interesting to me, then, that after I looked up Gerion on the Wiki after reading your post, I then saw lots of speculation that Gerion was the Corsair King, just when I was wondering if he was Illyrio! Something else - when Gerion asks Tyrion what he wants as a gift, Gerion laughs when Tyrion says a dragon. But he's just given Tyrion a dragon, Dany, in this plot, if he is Illyrio. A late birthday present? I think there might be a time issue though - Gerion only disappeared a little over ten years ago. Doesn't Illyrio seem too well-entrenched, rich and Pentosi to be Gerion? Wouldn't Tyrion have noticed something familiar about him despite his girth? It stretches probability, though it's not impossible, he did not notice anything. Also, he seems to have been allied with Varys a lot longer than that, but then, if everything he has said about their partnership is also a lie - the Myr Pentos lie gives that away or hints to that - it's possible their partnership began much later, well after Varys was ensconced at Kings Landing. He might even have met Varys in Kings Landing while he was still Gerion Lannister? Possibilities here, will have to keep an open mind. Re: the Rhoynar. They were left alone for longer than most but I was under the impression the Valyrians found the more powerful than most and didn't bother until they really needed to. But I also believe their connection to water magic might play a part. Do you recall the Reed oath? I've wondered if it was a recipe for changing human Greenseers of earth or water (water separate but part of) into Others and Valrians. The greendreamer Jojen says: "I swear by earth and water." These are the raw ingredients but notice these are separated from each other. An earth greenseer to make a fire being, a water greenseer to make an ice magic being? The weapons proficient Meera says: "I swear by bronze and iron". This is the forging or mixing process, and interestingly, bronze and iron weapons are not usually made the same way. Both require heat, but one is by mold, the other by hammering. So something similar to these different processes for each raw ingedient? I have posted before that Winterfell, that contains the Heart tree, hot springs, bottomless freezing pool, and root and water to circulate, is the perfect place to forge anything magical, be it magical sword or magical human. Then both swear by "ice and fire" - the result, magic ice and fire beings. The Others are made from water Greenseers, forged like iron, and transformed to ice beings. (You can start to see here a relationship to both the Rhoynar and the Ironborn). The Valyrians are made from earth Greenseers, forged like bronze, and transformed to fire beings. I like this because if you look at the forging process, (I watched fast forwarded on youtube) you can even see how the differences in forging correspond to differences in the final result of ice or fire people. So that ancient oath could very well be a recipe, carried through the thousands of years as an oath so it was never forgotten. But I only went into this because water magic greenseers + iron + fire enemies = Rhoynar can also be = Others, if you take the forging process into account. Grayscale is death. Val says it and means it. It is like the magic sucks the water right out of the flesh to leave it petrified. But doesn't this death connotation also ring true for the Others, who are necromancers? Way off topic, but It's surprising how some of our independent ideas are coming at the same things from different directions.
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