The Five Forts

[LmL]

My original statement was that the main message of the five forts is that dragonlords existed before Valyria. That's the most concrete thing you can say about the five forts - we know only one method of producing fused stone structures, which is dragon fire and sorcery. Since we also know that the Five Forts existed BEFORE the Long Night and BEFORE Valyria, what we can safely conclude is that prior to the long night, there existed someone who has mastery over dragons and sorcery both. We also know that dragon skeletons are found all over the world, even in Westeros, where the Valyrians never went. This also tells us that dragons existed, in the wild at least, before the Long Night.

The thing that I asserted in the comment you are replying to above is that we are given only ONE candidate to explain who built the Five Forts - the Great Empire of the Dawn, of which the Pearl Emperor is a part. You implied that there were 3 options for the builders, listing the GEotD, the Pearl Emperor, and Valyria. But we know that the Pearl Emperor was part of the GEotD, and we know Valyria did not exist when the Five Forts were built. Even when TWOAIF mentions that some think Valyrians built it, it immediately rules the possibility out, for the same reason we can. Therefore, it is a fact to say that we are given only one candidate for the builders of the Five Forts - the GEotD. It was them, or someone we have never heard of.

If it was them, then that implies that the GEotD were the ancient dragonlords that existed prior to Valyria. We know the dragonlords did exist prior to the long night, because of the Five Forts and Battle Isle, which is also fused stone and definitively pre-Long Night.

I would say the fact that the gemstone eyed ghosts that appeared to Daenerys in her dream were rooting for her to wake the dragon is at least a clue that the GEotD may have been the mysterious ancient dragon lord people. The swords of pale fire that they hold seem to create an association with Azor Ahai, another link to Asshai.

You can say you disagree with my conclusions, but you cannot accurately say there is "no evidence" to link the GEotD to Asshai.

The Bloodstone Emperor doesn't really have anything to do with the Five Forts. They were certainly made well before him, as you say. The relevancy is that if the GEotD did build the Five Forts, as TWOAIF says they did, then we can conclude that they were the mysterious ancient dragonlords, and therefore we can conclude that the Bloodstone Emperor took over an empire of dragonlords. Could they have lost dragon power by that time? Maybe, who knows. But it at least opens up the possibility that Azor Ahai, if he is the Bloodstone Emperor, may have been a dragon rider. Azor Ahai translates to "fire dragon," so, it would kind of make sense.

ETA: You'd probably have to consider the multiple mentions of dragons living in the wild in the shadowlands, as early as book one, to be a pretty big clue linking Asshai to the ancient dragonlords. So again, if the GEotD built the Five Forts as TWOAIF says they did, then they are the ancient dragonlords, and thus connected to Asshai.

[Modesty Lannister]

My original statement was that the main message of the five forts is that dragonlords existed before Valyria. That's the most concrete thing you can say about the five forts - we know only one method of producing fused stone structures, which is dragon fire and sorcery. Since we also know that the Five Forts existed BEFORE the Long Night and BEFORE Valyria, what we can safely conclude is that prior to the long night, there existed someone who has mastery over dragons and sorcery both. We also know that dragon skeletons are found all over the world, even in Westeros, where the Valyrians never went. This also tells us that dragons existed, in the wild at least, before the Long Night.

The thing that I asserted in the comment you are replying to above is that we are given only ONE candidate to explain who built the Five Forts - the Great Empire of the Dawn, of which the Pearl Emperor is a part. You implied that there were 3 options for the builders, listing the GEotD, the Pearl Emperor, and Valyria. But we know that the Pearl Emperor was part of the GEotD, and we know Valyria did not exist when the Five Forts were built. Even when TWOAIF mentions that some think Valyrians built it, it immediately rules the possibility out, for the same reason we can. Therefore, it is a fact to say that we are given only one candidate for the builders of the Five Forts - the GEotD. It was them, or someone we have never heard of.

If it was them, then that implies that the GEotD were the ancient dragonlords that existed prior to Valyria. We know the dragonlords did exist prior to the long night, because of the Five Forts and Battle Isle, which is also fused stone and definitively pre-Long Night.

I would say the fact that the gemstone eyed ghosts that appeared to Daenerys in her dream were rooting for her to wake the dragon is at least a clue that the GEotD may have been the mysterious ancient dragon lord people. The swords of pale fire that they hold seem to create an association with Azor Ahai, another link to Asshai.

You can say you disagree with my conclusions, but you cannot accurately say there is "no evidence" to link the GEotD to Asshai.

The Bloodstone Emperor doesn't really have anything to do with the Five Forts. They were certainly made well before him, as you say. The relevancy is that if the GEotD did build the Five Forts, as TWOAIF says they did, then we can conclude that they were the mysterious ancient dragonlords, and therefore we can conclude that the Bloodstone Emperor took over an empire of dragonlords. Could they have lost dragon power by that time? Maybe, who knows. But it at least opens up the possibility that Azor Ahai, if he is the Bloodstone Emperor, may have been a dragon rider. Azor Ahai translates to "fire dragon," so, it would kind of make sense.

ETA: You'd probably have to consider the multiple mentions of dragons living in the wild in the shadowlands, as early as book one, to be a pretty big clue linking Asshai to the ancient dragonlords. So again, if the GEotD built the Five Forts as TWOAIF says they did, then they are the ancient dragonlords, and thus connected to Asshai.

Not quite. We know that Valyrians used to make buildings of fused black stone. We do not know what technology they used. We also do not know if there can be any other technology. Valyrians are not the only nation nor race that used sorcery. So, we do not know which method was used to create five forts. Harrenhal was equally massive castle and we do know Harren did not use dragons to build it, but we do know he used blood sacrifice. So, to assume dragons were used to build five forts is but a speculation.

There are several textual mentions of Valyrian presence in Westeros albeit small and temporary. We know Valyrians flew over Sothyros. Why wouldn't they overfly Westeros? Why wouldn't dragons fly on their own? Or die on their own? The presence of dragon skeletons does not prove someone other than Valyrians ever mastered dragon taming. Dragon taming would mean dragon breeding, so the number of skeletons in that area would have been higher than elsewhere. There is no mention of that at all.

I didn't say anything. I was quoting the text. The text equally speculates that Five Forts may predate the GEotD and I see nothing that can conclusively tell us if that is the case or not. And I was not responding to anything you wrote. When I respond, I quote the text I respond to. I was stating my opinion, not debating anyone else's. You commented on my post.

I do not see how Daenerys's dream has anything to do with a proof that emperors of the GEotD were dragon lords. Even if they were her ancestors (which is also debatable), that does not prove they were dragonlords. No eastern myth supports that claim. Azor Ahai is not an Asshai legend. Pale swords are not flaming swords. If there is any sword link to anyone or anything, it would be Dawn.

I see no evidence of any link between the GEotD and Asshai. This is not even the topic of this thread, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

TWOAIF does not say the GEotD made the Five Forts. It names it as one of three potential candidates. You are saying they built the forts, not the book. I lost you completely in the end since I see no proof anyone in the GEotD knew how to tame dragons. No text suggests that at all.

ETA: The text mentions ONLY Valyrians as dragon lords. Dragons living in the wild do not imply any existence of dragon lords. All domestic animals were wild before they have been domesticated by our ancestors. In this imaginary world, a dragon is not a domestic animal and the only civilisation ever mentioned to have managed to tame dragons is the Valyrian one. There is no mention of anyone else. However, there are many mentions of both fire and ice dragons and even a sea dragon living in the wilderness, which makes perfect sense.

[LmL]

Not quite. We know that Valyrians used to make buildings of fused black stone. We do not know what technology they used.

Wrong.

Who built it? When? Why? Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valyria, as is well known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite. - TWOAIF

We also do not know if there can be any other technology.

True, I said the only method we are ever given for producing fused stone is dragon flame and sorcery. Could there be another way? Perhaps, but it has not even been suggested, so this is not a strong possibility. Dragonflame + sorcery is the only method we know of for making fused stone.

Valyrians are not the only nation nor race that used sorcery.

But none of those other sorcery users made fused stone, except the Five Forts and Battle Isle builders, so this doesn't really mean anything.

So, we do not know which method was used to create five forts. Harrenhal was equally massive castle and we do know Harren did not use dragons to build it, but we do know he used blood sacrifice. So, to assume dragons were used to build five forts is but a speculation.

Harrenhall is not made from fused stone, therefore it has nothing to do with this conversation. The five forts are made with fused stone, and the only method we are given in the series is dragon flame and sorcery, so to propose some as-yet-unspecified technique that happens to look exactly like dragon fire-produced fused stone is speculation, and baseless speculation at that.

There are several textual mentions of Valyrian presence in Westeros albeit small and temporary.

No, not before Aegon invaded. The tales of dragon presence in Westeros are all from the Dawn Age and Age of heroes, and thus before Valyria existed. All of which simply proves that dragons existed before Valyria. TWOAIF specifically states that the dragonlords never came to Westeros, and puzzles over this fact. The closest thing to what you suggest is this, discussing Battle Isle:

If indeed this first Fortress is Valyrian, it suggests that the dragonlords came to Westeros thousands of years before they carved out there outpost on Dragonstone, long before the coming of the Andals, or even the First Men.

Except that we know that Valyria did not rise until after the Long Night, so they cannot be responsible for the Battle Isle fortress. The dragon presence on Westeros predates the Long Night, ergo it cannot be Valyrian.

We know Valyrians flew over Sothyros. Why wouldn't they overfly Westeros? Why wouldn't dragons fly on their own?

Or die on their own?

They clearly did fly all over the place, in the wold, at one time. Given that we never hear any tales of wild dragons anywhere during the reign of Valyria from any other nation, it seems more likely they were wild in the dawn age and perished in the Long Night cataclysm along with most of the rest of life on earth. Dragons need to eat a lot, and food was hard to come by. But its possible all the wild dragon skeletons are from Valyrian dragons, we can't know for sure.

Except that fused stone structures say that dragonlords did exist in the Dawn Age. ;) Given that the magical "old races" are all in decline since the rise of man, it seems likely that dragons were more plentiful before the Long Night.

The presence of dragon skeletons does not prove someone other than Valyrians ever mastered dragon taming. Dragon taming would mean dragon breeding, so the number of skeletons in that area would have been higher than elsewhere. There is no mention of that at all.

What area? Asshai? How would anyone know how many dragon skeletons are in the shadowlands?

I didn't say anything. I was quoting the text.

You were paraphrasing, not quoting, and your paraphrase was inaccurate.

The text equally speculates that Five Forts may predate the GEotD

No, it does not. It says they predate the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, and were likely built by the GEotD:

No discussion of Yi Ti would be complete without mention of the five forts, a line of hulking ancient citadels that stand along the the far northeastern frontiers of the Golden Empire, between the Bleeding Sea (named for the characteristic hue of its deep waters, supposedly a result of the plant that grows only there) and the Mountains of the Morne, . The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim that they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons fro the realms of men... and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.

and I see nothing that can conclusively tell us if that is the case or not. And I was not responding to anything you wrote. When I respond, I quote the text I respond to. I was stating my opinion, not debating anyone else's. You commented on my post.

You quoted a comment by myself in the post previous to this, #179, the one I responded to. Seriously, wtf? You were DIRECTLY responding and quoting my post.

I do not see how Daenerys's dream has anything to do with a proof that emperors of the GEotD were dragon lords. Even if they were her ancestors (which is also debatable), that does not prove they were dragonlords. No eastern myth supports that claim. Azor Ahai is not an Asshai legend. Pale swords are not flaming swords. If there is any sword link to anyone or anything, it would be Dawn.

Again, you're changing facts to fit your interpretation. In the case of these ghosts of kings, pale swords were flaming swords:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white and their eyes were Opal and Amethyst, Tourmaline and Jade. "Faster," they cried. "Faster, faster!"

I see no evidence of any link between the GEotD and Asshai. This is not even the topic of this thread, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

Ok Modesty. This isn't even a credible statement. No evidence? Ok. And once again, the GEotD is the ONLY PLAUSIBLE CANDIDATE we are given for the builder of the Five Forts, so discussion of the GEotD is ABSOLUTELY within the scope of this thread. So I am not sure what you are talking about - with any of this, since once again you are wrong on many of the facts and the quotes, and even your own recollection of quoting my comment.

TWOAIF does not say the GEotD made the Five Forts. It names it as one of three potential candidates. You are saying they built the forts, not the book. I lost you completely in the end since I see no proof anyone in the GEotD knew how to tame dragons. No text suggests that at all.

No, it lists TWO candidates - GEotD and Valyria - and then immediately rules out Valyria, meaning it only gives ONE plausible candidate . Why do you keep insisting that the Pearl Emperor is not part of the Great Empire of the Dawn? It's impossible to debate with someone who refuses to acknowledge when they have misquoted the text. This is not the first time you've done this - I continue to see you go around asserting the First Men didn't have iron, when they clearly did, as we have discussed and as several people have pointed out to you. And don't try to construe this as a personal attack - I am speaking about your actions, not you as a person. Your actions - not admitting when you are clearly wrong - make debate impossible.

ETA: The text mentions ONLY Valyrians as dragon lords. Dragons living in the wild do not imply any existence of dragon lords. All domestic animals were wild before they have been domesticated by our ancestors. In this imaginary world, a dragon is not a domestic animal and the only civilisation ever mentioned to have managed to tame dragons is the Valyrian one. There is no mention of anyone else. However, there are many mentions of both fire and ice dragons and even a sea dragon living in the wilderness, which makes perfect sense.

[Modesty Lannister]

post 83

This rant only reestablishes the fact that you do not read what you do not want to read. It doesn't merit serious reply. I have already stated everything I wanted. I am not climbing on this pointless merry-go-round. And, for the record, I have quoted TWOIAF. Again, you didn't bother to read it. So, I'll do it again.

No discussion of Yi Ti would be complete without a mention of the Five Forts, a line of hulking ancient citadels that stand along the far northeastern frontiers of the Golden Empire, between the Bleeding Sea (named for the characteristic hue of its deep waters, supposedly a result of a plant that grows only there) and the Mountains of the Morn. The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men...and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.

TWOIAF

Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west...but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold's rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east.

TWOIAF

So, the text gives us three candidates:

1. Pre GEotD constructors

2. Pearl Emperor

3. Valyrians

This is what I said in the beginning. I am not going to debate your wild speculations any further.

Lastly, the quote you provided gives us information that Valyrians used dragon fire to create fused stone. No mention of sorcery there.

All I said was that we do not know if anyone else possessed a different technology. Sorry if that doesn't fit your theory, but that is the case.

I suggest you look at the quotes that suggest Valyrian presence in Westeros.

As for the rest, as I said, all speculative with no textual proof.

[LmL]

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made of Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God on earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forbearers.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for 1000 years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries... Yet every rain was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild man and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror.

- TWOIAF

Pearl Emperor = Great Empire of the Dawn.

[Modesty Lannister]

Pearl Emperor = Great Empire of the Dawn.

Yes, as one of three possible options. Did I deny it? No. I said it from the beginning. It is in the text. You are denying that the text provides 3 (three) options and keep reading just extracts that you like (shrugs and yawns).

[LmL]

Modesty, you listed the Pearl Emperor and the GEotD as separate possibilities - this is nonsensical because the Pearl Emperor was the Emperor of the Great Empire of the Dawn. They aren't separate possibilities... they are the same. If the Pearl E built it, then it was built by the GEotD. That's one possibility, not two.

It's not that complex.

And Valyria is ruled out as a possibility, both by the maester writing it and by the fact that Valyria did not exist during that time.

Which leaves one possibility directly suggested by the text that is remotely plausible, as I have been saying: the GEotD, or else the builder is someone we have never heard of...

[Mithras]

This rant only reestablishes the fact that you do not read what you do not want to read. It doesn't merit serious reply. I have already stated everything I wanted. I am not climbing on this pointless merry-go-round. And, for the record, I have quoted TWOIAF. Again, you didn't bother to read it. So, I'll do it again.

So, the text gives us three candidates:

1. Pre GEotD constructors

2. Pearl Emperor

3. Valyrians

You make a serious mistake here. "Golden Empire" in the above quote refers to the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, not the Great Empire of the Dawn. The YiTish claim to be the descendants and heirs of the Great Empire of the Dawn. You seem to equate Golden Empire to GEotD and claim that the text gives pre-GEotD constructors. That is obviously wrong. These are "pre-Golden Empire" constructors and we have already stated why the "Great Empire of the Dawn" makes most sense as these "pre-Golden Empire" constructors. I hope you now understand the difference between "Golden Empire" and "Great Empire of the Dawn".

[LmL]

Somehow, ML seems to have the impression that the Pearl Emperor was not part of the GEotD first saying this:

There is no proof in TWOIAF of the Five Forts being built by the GEotD. There are speculations as to which civilisation may have built it and the speculation range from pre-GEotD via the Pearl Emperor to the Valerians. So, nothing should be taken for granted.

But as I have pointed out, the Pearl Emperor is absolutely positively one of the Emperors of the GEotD:

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made of Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God on earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forbearers.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for 1000 years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries... Yet every rain was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild man and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror.

- TWOIAF

Then at some point in the conversation, she switches from saying "pre-GEotD via the Pearl Emperor" and starts listing the Pearl Emperor as GEotD in her three choices, and adds in a mysterious pre-GEotD option that is not anywhere in the text instead... without ever copping to the fact that she was mistaken in listing the Pearl Emperor as pre-LN originally. I'd venture to say that changing your argument midstream like that and then roasting someone over the coals for "misinterpreting" you or "selectively reading" is a bit unfair, but let's not get bogged down with that.

The only other mention of the Five Forts similarly says nothing about a pre-GEotD origin:

Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west...but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold's rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east.

TWOIAF

I'm really not sure what the disconnect is here. :dunno: The only other people mentioned besides the GEotD here as potential 5 Forts builders are the Valyrians, but this suggestion is immediately ruled out by the maester himself, when he correctly states that "the Forts predate the Freehold's rise." So again, I'm not sure where the confusion is. I don't really see any. Either the GEotD built them, or someone who we've never heard of did it, which really doesn't make much sense IMO.

I have no idea where ML is getting these "Pre GEotD constructors" which she claims are listed in one of the above quotes. Can you see them hiding in there?

[Modesty Lannister]

Somehow, ML seems to have the impression that the Pearl Emperor was not part of the GEotD first saying this:

But as I have pointed out, the Pearl Emperor is absolutely positively one of the Emperors of the GEotD:

Then at some point in the conversation, she switches from saying "pre-GEotD via the Pearl Emperor" and starts listing the Pearl Emperor as GEotD in her three choices, and adds in a mysterious pre-GEotD option that is not anywhere in the text instead... without ever copping to the fact that she was mistaken in listing the Pearl Emperor as pre-LN originally. I'd venture to say that changing your argument midstream like that and then roasting someone over the coals for "misinterpreting" you or "selectively reading" is a bit unfair, but let's not get bogged down with that.

The only other mention of the Five Forts similarly says nothing about a pre-GEotD origin:

I'm really not sure what the disconnect is here. :dunno: The only other people mentioned besides the GEotD here as potential 5 Forts builders are the Valyrians, but this suggestion is immediately ruled out by the maester himself, when he correctly states that "the Forts predate the Freehold's rise." So again, I'm not sure where the confusion is. I don't really see any. Either the GEotD built them, or someone who we've never heard of did it, which really doesn't make much sense IMO.

I have no idea where ML is getting these "Pre GEotD constructors" which she claims are listed in one of the above quotes. Can you see them hiding in there?

Sorry for having an opinion other than yours. At least I do not make connections between Asshai and everything else. I do not see dragon lords without textual support and I do see Valyrians at Westeros pre-Targs, because it does have textual support. This book series is not about the GEotD. But, do go ahead with your selective reading. I wish you applied the same scrutiny to what you write and then translate that practice on others. This way, it is not even mildly amusing.

And, in this context, your assessment that Valyrians cannot be builders of the Five Forts, because the author overrules it, shows that you missed the point of TWOIAF. The book is written by a maester who is sucking up to the Baratheons and the Lannisters. Hence, it is not an objective read, but an interpretation of Planetos history that suits two big houses the best. Hence, every mention of Valyrians should not be taken for granted. Subsequently, if the author mentions a possibility that Valyrians may have built the Five Forts, we should take them into consideration as builders. The fact that he then goes on to downplay that possibility goes hand in hand with the spirit of the book. But, as I said, you read selectively picking just what you like.

[Modesty Lannister]

You make a serious mistake here. "Golden Empire" in the above quote refers to the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, not the Great Empire of the Dawn. The YiTish claim to be the descendants and heirs of the Great Empire of the Dawn. You seem to equate Golden Empire to GEotD and claim that the text gives pre-GEotD constructors. That is obviously wrong. These are "pre-Golden Empire" constructors and we have already stated why the "Great Empire of the Dawn" makes most sense as these "pre-Golden Empire" constructors. I hope you now understand the difference between "Golden Empire" and "Great Empire of the Dawn".

No. I draw it from "some claim". Since "some claim" that Pearl Emperor built the forts and he is the first emperor of the GEotD, I leave it to you to reach the final conclusion.

[Mithras]

No. I draw it from "some claim". Since "some claim" that Pearl Emperor built the forts and he is the first emperor of the GEotD, I leave it to you to reach the final conclusion.

Pearl Emperor is not the first Emperor of the GEotD. He was the second ruler. The first one was his father, God-on-Earth, who ruled for 10000 years.

How exactly do you claim that the Five Forts might be built by some pre-GEotD constructors? What is you evidence or hint to suggest this possibility?

I am still not convinced that you know the difference between “the Golden Empire” and “the Great Empire of the Dawn” and do not use them interchangeably. I added the links just in case.

[Modesty Lannister]

Pearl Emperor is not the first Emperor of the GEotD. He was the second ruler. The first one was his father, God-on-Earth, who ruled for 10000 years.

How exactly do you claim that the Five Forts might be built by some pre-GEotD constructors? What is you evidence or hint to suggest this possibility?

I am still not convinced that you know the difference between “the Golden Empire” and “the Great Empire of the Dawn” and do not use them interchangeably. I added the links just in case.

I really do not care if you are convinced or not. The purpose of my writing is not to convince you. The world is not Mithras centric, sorry. If you cannot read two quotes that is not my fault. This whole thing is a waste of time and trolling. If you cannot grasp that there are three possibilities as who and when build the Five Forts, I cannot help you. And even if I wanted I couldn't, because your sole mission on this thread is to troll me. And throw some random Earth mythology into Planetos cannon. You think it looks smart and cool. It doesn't. It says that you cannot distinguish between two separate systems. So, throw in a random god from a random religion, mix and match and voila - a new logical chaos is born. The longer the better.

[LmL]

We've all read these two quotes many times now, and nobody besides you, ML, can see this third pre-GEotD option. Since we are all so blind, perhaps you can post the quote from the text and bold the part which you feel shows this third, "Pre-GEotD" option that no one else can see.

Nobody is trolling anyone, we are talking about the five forts and trying to be factual.

[LmL]

double

[SolomonBlack]

We've all read these two quotes many times now, and nobody besides you, ML, can see this third pre-GEotD option. Since we are all so blind, perhaps you can post the quote from the text and bold the part which you feel shows this third, "Pre-GEotD" option that no one else can see.

Nobody is trolling anyone, we are talking about the five forts and trying to be factual.

Your text reading is disturbingly over literal if you can't read "some claim" as a distinct signal that nobody really knows shit and made up something that sounded good. It is simply (groundless) in universe speculation, go dig up some of the gossip purported by the smallfolk through the books for how near reality that can be taken.

Mind it could still be true but the idea that it was someone else must be considered very seriously.

Especially given how doubtful the Great Empire of the Dawn is period. Its clearly recalling China's own legendary dynasty (not archaelogically supported of course) nor are we provided with any explicit evidence of its existence in universe even say supporting tales from other ancient lands. Obviously in fantasy legend is a better guide then it is in reality... but we also can't know the twists and to put bluntly Planetos both has too many legend for them all to be true and well established cases of legends diverging from reality like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Knight of the Kingsguard in the days of the First Men. Even Yi Ti itself has divergent legends of the same time. That woman with a monkey tail has as much support.

Given the obvious cultural posturing in the GEotD tale I'd be inclined to expect it is so divergent as to be as meaningless merely a thematic echo of the truth at best. Unless/until the Patrimony's own legendary past becomes known and is reasonably compatible. They not Yi Ti not Asshai were Azor Ahai's own nation by their own name and occupied a position that should reflect on all of this.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I really do not care if you are convinced or not. The purpose of my writing is not to convince you. The world is not Mithras centric, sorry. If you cannot read two quotes that is not my fault. This whole thing is a waste of time and trolling. If you cannot grasp that there are three possibilities as who and when build the Five Forts, I cannot help you. And even if I wanted I couldn't, because your sole mission on this thread is to troll me. And throw some random Earth mythology into Planetos cannon. You think it looks smart and cool. It doesn't. It says that you cannot distinguish between two separate systems. So, throw in a random god from a random religion, mix and match and voila - a new logical chaos is born. The longer the better.

But there's no evidence or even anyone in the worldbook theorizing that it was built pre-GeotD. Some claim it was the Pearl Emperor, some claim it was the Valyrians, and some people probably don't care. It never states that anyone thinks it was built by a pre-GEotD civilization anywhere; the 'some claim' part simply means that's what some individuals think; nothing more and nothing less.

And where did he put anything from real-life mythology in?

[LmL]

^ this

[LmL]

Your text reading is disturbingly over literal if you can't read "some claim" as a distinct signal that nobody really knows shit and made up something that sounded good. It is simply (groundless) in universe speculation, go dig up some of the gossip purported by the smallfolk through the books for how near reality that can be taken.

The question was 'what specific nations are put forward as possible candidates for building the Five Forts?" Specifically mentioned are Valyria (1), and the Pearl Emperor of the GEotD (2). Of course someone else we never heard of may have built it - I acknowledged this many times - but to say that a pre-GEotD option is specifically mentioned in TWOAIF is false. It doesn't say "..or perhaps they were built by some long vanished people before the great Empire arose.." or anything like that. THAT was the question.

Mind it could still be true but the idea that it was someone else must be considered very seriously.

Absolutely. I have my own theory that the GEotD did build it, but that is a theory which I have never asserted as fact. I have also never asserted that the TWOIAF says the GEotD built it - it says they may have built it. I asserted that of the two specific nations listed, they are the only viable candidate, for reasons stated, which we can also discuss if you like - that's only my opinion, and that of the maester writing, admittedly. But consider that the Hightower fortress is indisputably pre-Valyrian. The Hightowers, a First Men family and one of the first to arrive in the reach, built things on top of the fortress, and all of this before the Long Night. Valyria did not arise until after the Long Night... so we are still left with the question: who were these people that came before valyria and built fused stone structures?

Especially given how doubtful the Great Empire of the Dawn is period. Its clearly recalling China's own legendary dynasty (not archaelogically supported of course) nor are we provided with any explicit evidence of its existence in universe even say supporting tales from other ancient lands.

That's your opinion, which many disagree with. We all know you don't think the old legends mean much of anything - you've already stated that on this thread. I'm not sure what the point is of repeatedly commenting on a thread about the far eastern stuff to tell everyone none of it is relevant, but that's your prerogative.

As we discussed before, the fact that George is modeling the GEotD after Chinese legend doesn't mean anything about how relevant the GEotD is tothe story. He's based all kinds of Planetos cultures that are right in the thick of the story on real world cultures... so with all due respect, this is a meaningless argument. And follow your own logic - Chjinese culture is obsessed with dragons, and specifically liked to portray comets as dragons. If George is modeling his lost "golden age" Atlantis-type empire off of the ancient Chinese, do you really think its far-fetched to imagine he gave them dragons??? ;)

As for explicit evidence... dude, it was 10,000 years ago. The five forts and Battle Isle fortress are explicit evidence that someone with fused stone building capability existed prior to the Long Night.. Again, it doesn't matter what we call them - the GEotD most likely had a different name for themselves.

Obviously in fantasy legend is a better guide then it is in reality... but we also can't know the twists and to put bluntly Planetos both has too many legend for them all to be true and well established cases of legends diverging from reality like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Knight of the Kingsguard in the days of the First Men. Even Yi Ti itself has divergent legends of the same time. That woman with a monkey tail has as much support.

Given the obvious cultural posturing in the GEotD tale I'd be inclined to expect it is so divergent as to be as meaningless merely a thematic echo of the truth at best.

Legends are seldom all true, usually they have a bit of truth and a lot of embellishment. The job of anyone attempting to sort through mythology, in the real world or in ASOIAF, is to try to separate the kernels of truth from the fiction. The presence of the fictional part doesn't invalidate the kernel of truth. The way to find the kernels is to look for common ideas and characters (archetypes) in the various myths. They will have different names and wear different clothes, but we see this character who pulls down a god from heaven all over the place. The BSE does it. Durran Godsgrief does it. Hugor Hill. Grey King. Galladon of Morne. There's something going on here with pulling down something from heaven. But I digress. At least you admit the inclination to dismiss all these myths as meaningless is nothing more than a personal inclination on your part. It's not based on anything in the book, since you can't prove a negative. This forum, however, is an appropriate place for people to examine various details of ASOIAF and speculate, research, form hypothesis, test those hypothesis, and write theories. If you want to take a look at the best case I can make for the GEotD (or whatever they called themselves, the name doesn't matter) being the ancient dragon lord race which came before Valyria, take a look at the three top theories in my signature. I think there jus a great deal of evidence, too much to summarize here. I agree we should "considered very seriously"the possibility that the GEotD did not build it, but we should certainly consider very seriously that they did, which you seem to be resistant to, correct me if I am wrong.

Unless/until the Patrimony's own legendary past becomes known and is reasonably compatible. They not Yi Ti not Asshai were Azor Ahai's own nation by their own name and occupied a position that should reflect on all of this.

we are given five different names for the "flaming sword warrior from the east," of which Hyrkoon is one. Presumably this legend is from the Patrimony of Hyrkoon, just as the legend of Neferion is from Nefer, and Yin Tar from the Yi Tish. Azor Ahai is most strongly associated with Asshai, while Eldric Shadowchaser sounds like a Westerosi name but beyond that seems pretty up in the air. So there's no real reason to assume that Azor Ahai (the real one) was from Hyrkoon. Hyrkoon' lands fall within the supposed borders of the GEotD, so it's not surpassing the flaming sword guy myth survived there. Hyrkoon is most likely a local name for Azor Ahai, or just a local name affixed to the flaming sword hero. Likewise for Neferion and Yin Tar, both legends from peoples that were within the GEotD borders when it was existent.

[LmL]

Regarding fused stone itself, we know two things about what it takes to make it: dragon fire, implying control of dragons, and 'arcane arts,' which obviously means sorcery. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire," as Marwyn says.

From TWOAIF:

...the Valyrians also established their westernmost outpost on the isle that would come to be known as Dragonstone some two hundred years before the Doom. [...]

With their arcane arts, the Valyrians raised the Citadel at Dragonstone.

...massive wall and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joints or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragon roads of the freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valyria, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

Could there be some other mysterious, unmentioned-in-the-series method of making fused stone that looks exactly like dragon flame-produced fused stone? I mean, I suppose we can't rule it out, but that doesn't make much sense to me. We are given a very specify method of producing fused stone - dragon flame and sorcery - and then George is kind of rubbing our fadein the fact that someone was running around on Essos AND Westeros making fused stone fortresses, long before Valyria existed. It seems clear he wants us to wonder about who these people are. I really don't think "he made all these mysteries that are unsolvable" is a very strong hypothesis.

Which brings us back to the question - what are the candidates we are given for these builders? The GEotD surely seems like at least a viable contender, worthy of discussion.