AGOT Reread- Prologue and Jon

[Ealasaid]

Are we going though chapters faster than planned? I could have sworn I wrote something on this.

GRRM makes good use of the entrance device (again) to introduce the reader to introduce new characters and comment more on others. I especially liked what Jon noted about the pouty lipped Joffrey. But deciding a little girl is insipid - that was odd. She is very young, what else could she be but insipid?

It is interesting that the banners are Stark, Baratheon and Lannister. Why not Tully, as well? Someone knew the Queen expected it.

I thought it odd that Benjen Stark, who was so kind to Jon, suddenly tells him to go out and father a few bastards. How thoughless and unkind.

The scene with Tyrion is one of my favorite -- and the line already noted above -- "the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king. One of my favorite lines. And I think Tyrion would make a good king. Clearly, warriors such as Robert do not. But Tyrion is so well-read, he would be great. He certainly did well with the chain at the river.

[Barba]

Jon (II)

First mentioned: Mikken (Blacksmith of winterfell, later killed by Theon Greyjoy)

Jon goes to visit Bran on his sickbed, but Catelyn tells him to leave. Cat’s hatred for Jon is immense, but Jon stays long enough to pray for Bran and cry. As he is leaving, Catelyn tells him that it should have been he who fell. Jon then says his goodbyes to Robb, and then visits Arya. He gives Arya the sword Needle that he had Mikken forge for her. He then leaves to meet his uncle Benjen on the way to the Wall.

[The Adequate Jon]

Timeline:

Jon II is about 13 days after Bran's fall. Jon thinks that Cat has been at Bran's bedside for close to a fortnight.

[Spring Bass]

This chapter is one of the few times when we see Jon at his most emotional, and Catelyn at her worst.

[Tarthking]

Jon II:

Another straightforward chapter.

It’s interesting to see Jon’s goodbyes to his siblings. He’s obviously very close with Arya, very close, but oddly formal, with Robb, and just close with Bran. Like there is a hierarchy of closeness - Jon went from least to greatest among his siblings (not counting Rickon, for obvious reasons). Martin didn’t bother writing a goodbye between Jon and Sansa, indicating that their relationship isn’t very important to the series (or it’s another indication that Sansa is not a “true†Stark).

Bedridden Bran is described like a bird, including claws, and thin bones. As far as I recall, this is the first time Martin uses bird imagery in the book. Its obviously repeated with the crows of the Night’s Watch, Sparrows of the faith, Varys’ little birds, and Sansa, the Hound’s little songbird. Don’t know what the significance of this one is, either.

Arya hits Jon with the flat of her blade, and later in the series gets hit herself with the flat of an axe. Probably not significant, but funny.

[Ealasaid]

This chapter is one of the few times when we see Jon at his most emotional, and Catelyn at her worst.

Very true on both counts

Catelyn goes on ad infinitum about Bran's sweetness. And another sweet, in need ot nuturing, boy is standing before her. From what we are told her son has no chance to fahter children and will never live the life of a knight, which he dreamed of being. And there stands Jon, no hope of being a knight, holding land, or being legitimizied and he is so to take a vow that will render him unable to wed or have children. And she reviles him.

[Ealasaid]

Jon II:

Another straightforward chapter.

It’s interesting to see Jon’s goodbyes to his siblings. He’s obviously very close with Arya, very close, but oddly formal, with Robb, and just close with Bran. Like there is a hierarchy of closeness - Jon went from least to greatest among his siblings (not counting Rickon, for obvious reasons). Martin didn’t bother writing a goodbye between Jon and Sansa, indicating that their relationship isn’t very important to the series (or it’s another indication that Sansa is not a “true†Stark).

Bedridden Bran is described like a bird, including claws, and thin bones. As far as I recall, this is the first time Martin uses bird imagery in the book. Its obviously repeated with the crows of the Night’s Watch, Sparrows of the faith, Varys’ little birds, and Sansa, the Hound’s little songbird. Don’t know what the significance of this one is, either.

Arya hits Jon with the flat of her blade, and later in the series gets hit herself with the flat of an axe. Probably not significant, but funny.

Excellent points all.

I'll try to answer the questions we were assigned --

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? And now/

First time through I was astounded bu Catelyn's nastiness to Jon in the sickroom. Doesn't she know what goes around comes around? This time, I understand that her grief allows her to say the things she is thinking. Still, to a boy the age of her Robb, they are terribly harsh words. Whilst I understand, it does not change the way I feel about the Catelyn character.

2. Foreshadowing, quotes --

I thought initially that "you Starks are hard to kill" mihgt bode well for them. Scotch that bit of Jon wisdom. Does Catelyn count as a Stark.

When Arya and Jon chime together "don't...tell...Sansa," it shows these young people know Sansa better than her Ned. Too, bad they did not give him the same advice. I suppose it's a bit of foreshadowing. SHe a tale carrier and also bends the truth to her advantage.

3. Plot or Character development, and importance of the chapter.

Clearly the diverse roads Robb and Jon are taking, and the horrible fall of Bran, have caused them to grow up a little. They embrace in the yard as they say goodbye, but as noted above (I think), they call each Stark and Snow. As also pointed out, this is the first time, and it shows the childhood is ending.

The Arya farewell is wonderful. Truely a sweet send off for Jon. Shw is practical when she notes that everything she packs in the trunk is going to be wrinkled (and full of road dust ) by the time the group reaches King's Landing. The gift of the sword shows the loving side of Jon again (just as the farewell to the unconcious Bran), a type of love I don't think he received much of in his short life. The shared sense of humor in the naming of the sword, demonstrates a mutual understanding and sense of fun.

This leave taking chapter was well done. Jon didn't see everyone, but the ones he did see lend insight has to how Sansa would have said farewell to "our hal-brother." It din't move much along, but we certainly learned the depth of anger Catelyn carries around for Jon . And Jon's Needle was certainly meant for Arya.

[The Adequate Jon]

Bedridden Bran is described like a bird, including claws, and thin bones. As far as I recall, this is the first time Martin uses bird imagery in the book. Its obviously repeated with the crows of the Night’s Watch, Sparrows of the faith, Varys’ little birds, and Sansa, the Hound’s little songbird. Don’t know what the significance of this one is, either.

Don't forget that Jojen sees Bran as a winged wolf.

The first time I read this chapter (and all of the early chapters at Winterfell), I really enjoyed the relationships between the Stark kids. It made me really root for Arya to be reunited with her family later in the series. Now when I read these chapters, it's kind of bitter-sweet, because I know that these happy times won't last very long.

[enos]

wha!! I'm too late for the prologue... oh well...

Catelyn goes on ad infinitum about Bran's sweetness. And another sweet, in need ot nuturing, boy is standing before her. From what we are told her son has no chance to fahter children and will never live the life of a knight, which he dreamed of being. And there stands Jon, no hope of being a knight, holding land, or being legitimizied and he is so to take a vow that will render him unable to wed or have children. And she reviles him.

Nice observations. It makes me admire Jon more...

How could he hold all these emotions intact???

Robb and Jon's farewell's actually one of my favorite moments in the series.

I like it even better than Arya/Jon.

They call each other Stark & Snow out of mutual respect. I think...

It shows their relationship is on a whole different level than ordinary brothers.

I really can't explain this, it's like me and my twin brother, we're not jolly buddies, we don't talk much with one another. But the sense of love, warmth, and camaraderie is there.

It's a sort of "You've got my back, I've got yours... whatever happens" thing.

And it is what I see in Robb and Jon.

"Farewell Snow"

"You too, Stark"

[The Adequate Jon]

This has been pointed out in the AFFC forum a lot, but it should be mentioned here. Jon notices the snow melting in Robb's hair when they say goodbye, just as he notices the snow melting in Sam's hair when Sam is leaving for Oldtown.

[Knight of Stars]

This has been pointed out in the AFFC forum a lot, but it should be mentioned here. Jon notices the snow melting in Robb's hair when they say goodbye, just as he notices the snow melting in Sam's hair when Sam is leaving for Oldtown.

What do you think this portends? That they are not made of the stuff the North requires? Or as Carelyn later calls Renly's group, knights of summer?

[Ealasaid]

wha!! I'm too late for the prologue... oh well...

Nice observations. It makes me admire Jon more...

How could he hold all these emotions intact???

"Farewell Snow"

"You too, Stark"

I do not believe I could have stood there and taken the abuse Jon did. Perhpas he was heeding Tyrion's words about all dwarves need not be bastards and all bastards need not be dwarves. If nothing else, Jon has manners.

What do you think this portends? That they are not made of the stuff the North requires? Or as Carelyn later calls Renly's group, knights of summer?

Or maybe GRRM likes watching the snow melt in people's hair in Santa Fe. Or it may mean a lot more. I hope it does not mean Sam is to die.

[The Adequate Jon]

What do you think this portends? That they are not made of the stuff the North requires? Or as Carelyn later calls Renly's group, knights of summer?

It could possibly be a bad omen for Sam - Jon never saw Robb again afterwards. Or it could be that with Jon believing all of his siblings are dead, Sam is kind of taking their place. Sam has become as close as a brother to Jon. Or it could mean nothing.

[DBaron]

Jon II

Oops, I forgot this chapter, and thought Tyrion II was this week.

Impressions:

Catelyns reaction towards Jon in this chapter always seemed excessively harsh, then and now. Her final words were down right cruel. At first I misliked Cat for it, but now I am a little more willing to forgive her outburst. It covers several pages, so it must have some significance, perhaps something to do with Cat representing the mother aspect. From the descriptions we have in Cat chapter I have tried to continue the idea that Cat and Ned’s love is a sort of tragic one, in that even though they both love one another, they also both also have something that will always separate them, that is, Jon and Brandon. I thought maybe Cats attitude towards Jon here was a further representation of this, but I can’t really make it work. Ned never seems to think about Brandon much. Tarthkings bird imagery is a good spot. Anyway, like other readers have mentioned, I liked the close relationships between Jon and the rest of the Stark children. I especially liked that he displays loyalty to the Starks, and they in return are loyal to him. Regarding Sansa, I’ve always imagined the relationship between them as cordial at best, frosty at worst. I don’t recall Jon ever disliking Sansa, or vica versa. It’s sad to see them all get broken up, the Starks seem to be one of the few relatively ‘normal’ families we get to see in this series (even with their problems).

Catelyn’s name is mentioned as Catelyn Tully Stark, I suspect this is due to the nature of hers and Jons relationship.

I disagree with this being on the few times we get to see Jon as being emotional. He seems like an emotional person to me. He already had one fit in his previous chapter, described as being angry and sullen in another, here he is choked up about Bran, has an outburst in the next Tyrion chapter, and several more at castle black, his attempted desertion, dealing with Ygritte, etc. His emotions tend towards anger and resentment, but he can be overcome by feelings of happiness as well (his joy at hearing that Bran will live for example). Later on in the series he calms down quite a bit, but in AGOT IMO he has problems controlling his emotions.

Foreshadowing

“Don’t….tell….Sansaâ€. Other people seem to trust Sansa with their secrets, namely Littlefinger and the Hound. It’s funny that she can keep other peoples secrets but not her own families. More indications that she is not a stark? Also what Ealasaid mentioned about the kids knowing better than the adults is a very good point I think. The theme seems to run throughout this book, i.e. Sam having to point out the dead bodies, would be another. The adults seemed almost institutionalized into seeing things a certain way (Luwin, and Ned especially).

Jon mentions that ‘Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.’ when saying goodbye to Arya. I’m still holding out for an Arya and Jon reunion. Hopefully a happy one.

In Arya chapter, Jon mentions that women get the arms but not the swords, while bastards get the swords but not the arms. Here the bastard gives the woman her sword. Perhaps in the future a woman will give him the arms (Dany?).

Questions:

I take that these next 3 chapters (Jon II, Eddard II, and the opening of Tyrion III) are all based on the same day?

[Barba]

First time I read this chapter I hated Cat. I don't know why, but now, reading it carefully, I think her reaction much less disturbing, especially when in her next chapter (and this one too) we find out that even Robb is disturbed by her behavior. This made me belive that she was fucked up at the time because of Bran, not because she was talking to Jon.

I found connection with Jon'c confrontation with Cat and Jon's confrontation with wright.

1)Here he stood at the door 'afraid to speak', and there (with wright) he shouted: "Who's there."

2)In the beginning of confrontation Cat is described flat and emotionless, at least in the way she speaks to him untill he comes next to the bed. Kinda like-Other, or wright.

3)Her words would sent him running once, now it made him angry. He will face darker things at the wall than Her

All of this seems to speak about Jon's growing up and facing his fears. As a kid he would run. Now he stays, but is affraid to speak. Later he shouts and defeats the wright

I love the way he says goodbye to Robb.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The "insipid" quote from Jon about Myrcella seems to be all about Jon's jealousy of Robb, it was a sour grapes thing that Robb gets to escort her and he gets to sit with the servants. It's no different from high school boys calling the high school cheerleaders bimbos while at the same time they all secretly want to date them.

[ThomasFoster]

The "insipid" quote from Jon about Myrcella seems to be all about Jon's jealousy of Robb, it was a sour grapes thing that Robb gets to escort her and he gets to sit with the servants. It's no different from high school boys calling the high school cheerleaders bimbos while at the same time they all secretly want to date them.

When would calling a girl a bimbo imply you *didn't* wan't to date them? Beautiful, easy, bubbly, cheerful, slutty and thick - high praise for a girl indeed!

[Barba]

Jon III

Introduced:

Ser Alliser Thorne (Master-at-Arms of Castle Black, later Master-at-Arms of Eastwatch-by-the-Sea);

Grenn (Night’s Watch recruit, later Ranger);

Jeren (recruit);

Todder (Toad, a recruit, later Ranger);

Dareon* (recruit, former singer, later steward at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, then named a recruiter, Killed by Arya of House Stark in Braavos);

Pypar (Pyp, recruit, later Ranger);

Halder (recruit, later member of the Builders);

Donal Noye* (armorer at Castle Black, once master armorer at Storm’s End, Killed by Giants during attack on Castle Black);

Lord Jeor Mormont* (Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, the Old Bear, former Lord of Bear Island, father of Ser Jorah Mormont, killed by Nightwatch turncloacks in Craster's Keep).

Jon is training under Ser Alliser Thorne at Castle Black, but keeps beating the other recruits, often injuring them. Ser Alliser mercilessly berates them, calling each by derogatory names. Jon injures Grenn’s hand during a spar. Later that day, Grenn, Toad and the two rapers attack Jon in his cell. Jon fights them off until Donal Noye intervenes. Donal Noye had been blacksmith to Lord Stannis, and some say he forged King Robert’s warhammer. He lost an arm at the seige of Storm’s End, andsubsequently took the black. Noye explains to Jon that the other recruits had little to no formal training in swordfighting, while Jon was trained by an annointed knight. Jon realizes that what he was doing was wrong. Afterward, he meets Tyrion who calls him Lord Snow like the others. When Jon objects to the title, Tyrion tells him, "If they want to give you a name, take it, make it your own. Then they can’t hurt you with it anymore". They go to the mess hall together, and Tyrion mentions that Benjen Stark, who went in search of Ser Waymar Royce, is too long away. Ser Alliser tells Jon that the Lord Commander wants to see him. A message from Winterfell reveals that Bran had awoken. Jon is overjoyed, and when he sees Grenn, he tells him that he’ll help him learn how to fight better.

[The Adequate Jon]

When I first read this chapter, I liked Ser Alliser. He reminds me of a modern-day drill sergeant. It seems like he's just doing his job trying to make soldiers out of raw recruits. I had the feeling that once the recruits passed their training, Alliser would ease up and become a friend. Even on the reread, he doesn't seem like that bad a guy until the very end of the chapter.

Interesting? notes:

Tyrion calls the Wall the most useless thing built by men.

After finding out Bran woke up, Jon picks up Tyrion and spins him around just like Tyrion later does to Myrcela when he returns to Kingslanding.

There are several references to the blue coloring of the Wall.

Timeline:

Assuming they sent the letter from Winterfell right away, this is about 2 days after Bran III. This is 67 days after Tyrion II, which makes sense. They probably arrived at the Wall about 12 days after Tyrion II, a couple weeks later Benjen left in search of Royce. They would have expected him back about a month later. This is a month plus 11 days later, and Tyrion remarks that Benjen has been gone too long.

[Barba]

Ok, reread it. Mostly straightforward chapter with Wall and Castle black and condition of Night Watch from first hand. Found few things curious:

The thought of his uncle being Dead. Don't know what it means. It could be something, but then again, it could be nothing.

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

I just can hear George thinking:"Nope. You're getting no hints here."

Tyrion Lannister was bundled in furs so thickly he looked like a very small bear. “There’s much to be said for taking people unawares. You never know what you might learn.â€

Just found this quote interesting. George really tries to present Tyrion as a smart guy.

Tyrion Lannister laid a hand on his arm. “Jon,†he said. “I am truly sorry.â€

.....

“Bran is going to live!†he whooped. Lannister looked startled.

Now, this 2 lines I found...odd

Tyrion new that Maester Luwin said that Bran will probably live, so why he assumes Bran died, althrough I understand that it was about 3 months since his fall.

I think George wanted us to belive he maybe did hire that guy to kill Bran.