Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Methinks markg171 is taking the "hiding under Casterly Rock" comment WAY too literally. Joffrey was legit pissed when he said that, the funny thing is he was exactly right. Tywin did pretty much hide out and then just sacked the city. But after he said that he was ready to crap his pants with the look Tywin gave him...... "the king is tired" lmao.........."IM NOT TIRED!!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Waited. The Battle of the Trident could only be decisive in one direction. No way he can pick up 6,000 men along the Goldroad. A couple hundred, maybe. But not 6,000. He has to have them at Casterly Rock. Feeding them there is not a problem: Lannisport has spare food enough Ned would need to reorganize. Swap injured guys out, promote replacement, stuff like that. Meh, Robert provided lile 10% of the rebel forces at best. Ashford was utterly unimportant in that regard. But position wise he would have been able to cut off the rebels from joining back up with each other. And on sure numbers alone the huge Lannister numbers crossed with the Tyrells and the positions they held, would have been able to really put the rebels on the defensive and took their momentum away. Not too mention all the foreign sell swords etc that Tywin would have thrown gold at to help the crowns cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But position wise he would have been able to cut off the rebels from joining back up with each other. And on sure numbers alone the huge Lannister numbers crossed with the Tyrells and the positions they held, would have been able to really put the rebels on the defensive and took their momentum away. Not too mention all the foreign sell swords etc that Tywin would have thrown gold at to help the crowns cause He maybe could have cut off Robert. But that's already a big maybe. Furthermore, JonCon did that himself. It didn't gave the loyalists anything. The "huge Lannister numbers" are less than the North, Vale or Riverlands each. The only side they would have topped are the Stormlands. Furthermore, the crown had enough money to hire sellswords. But they did not have sufficient room to supply more than the 40,000 men they finally marched into the Riverlands or gathered there. Any additional men would have simply starved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 He maybe could have cut off Robert. But that's already a big maybe. Furthermore, JonCon did that himself. It didn't gave the loyalists anything. The "huge Lannister numbers" are less than the North, Vale or Riverlands each. The only side they would have topped are the Stormlands. Furthermore, the crown had enough money to hire sellswords. But they did not have sufficient room to supply more than the 40,000 men they finally marched into the Riverlands or gathered there. Any additional men would have simply starved. But the Lannisters wouldnt be taking on those armies 1 on 4 so I dont see your point? And no its not a big "maybe". If you look at the positions of who was where after the one Tyrell victory, the men going back up in the northern direction would have been in an easy grasp of Tywin and his area of Lannisport. Can even go to the history and Lore videos on youtube and its broken down pretty simple involving this specific thing..........I think its maybe Marg Tyrell who is talking on the subject As it was the war ended close and could have gone either way. So if you toss in the Lannisters before the Trident and had them in full force for some of the final battles you cant sit and say it ends the same, and even if it does it would for sure take a much much much longer time. If they hopped in then and stopped the rebels from meeting back up with each other (also with how tired and strained they would be). That would have really made shit difficult, and would have put everything up for grabs again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Instead of just making up the story with no textual evidence? - Ned says Tywin sat out the war in Casterly rock ignoring calls to arms from both sides - Joffrey says he hid under Casterly Rock while Robert was winning the war. Neither Cersei, Tyrion, or Tywin deny his comments and are surprised that he's so bold as to call him out for it - Joffrey's comment upsets Tywin So yes, Tywin did hide in Casterly Rock. I'm taking it literally, because that's what happened. So, he didn't left Casterly Rock? Not even once? Not even to see the sun? He didn't visit bannermen, prepared for war, went fishing? Also, how did Ned or Joffrey knew Tywin wasn't at, say, Silverhill when they thought he was at Casterly Rock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 800 miles from Lannisport actually. With only 600 miles to Stoney Sept. Maybe 900 to Riverrun. And still only hampering Robert, who after Ashford provided like 500 men or thereabouts to an alliance with a potential of 170,000. But I see your problem: You put stock in the show. Don't. It does not apply to the books. The war wasn't close by any measure. In less than a year the rebels won against a continent. That's an utter curmbstomp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 800 miles from Lannisport actually. With only 600 miles to Stoney Sept. Maybe 900 to Riverrun. And still only hampering Robert, who after Ashford provided like 500 men or thereabouts to an alliance with a potential of 170,000. But I see your problem: You put stock in the show. Don't. It does not apply to the books. The war wasn't close by any measure. In less than a year the rebels won against a continent. That's an utter curmbstomp.According to the author it was. The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. The Loyalists lost because of awful leadership, not down to numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 According to the author it was. The Loyalists lost because of awful leadership, not down to numbers.Oh well, that "really" is a rather big caveat. Conquering a continent the size of Westeros barely more than a year is mighty fast, indicating a rather one-sided affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So, he didn't left Casterly Rock? Not even once? Not even to see the sun? He didn't visit bannermen, prepared for war, went fishing? Also, how did Ned or Joffrey knew Tywin wasn't at, say, Silverhill when they thought he was at Casterly Rock? Robert and Ned knew after the war that Tywin didnt really help out much as far as winning took place, so I can guess that when Rob was drunk and telling war stories to Joff he made sure it was known that Tywin was a pussy and Rob was the one who killed the prince won the big battles etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Oh well, that "really" is a rather big caveat. Conquering a continent the size of Westeros barely more than a year is mighty fast, indicating a rather one-sided affair. We have not been told the full story, or every single battle. Even at the end the loyalists outnumbered the Rebels and still had reinforcements in the Stormlands. Incompetent leadership cost them victory. Aerys not leaving Kings Landing, 4 different Hands, Rhaegar and the Lord Commander at the Tower of Joy meant that there was no clear leader to fight the rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 800 miles from Lannisport actually. With only 600 miles to Stoney Sept. Maybe 900 to Riverrun. And still only hampering Robert, who after Ashford provided like 500 men or thereabouts to an alliance with a potential of 170,000. But I see your problem: You put stock in the show. Don't. It does not apply to the books. The war wasn't close by any measure. In less than a year the rebels won against a continent. That's an utter curmbstomp. Not putting stock into the show I was just using it as an example. My point being that if someone like the Lannisters joined the crowns cause, with all their gold and huge military, even if the Rebels ended up winning the war, it would have been prolonged much much much longer. Also the Tyrells would have also been able to leave a smaller force at Storms End, and a better Commander like Tywin (opposed to Mace) would have drawn out the battle plan and overall tactics that would have made things much much tougher on the rebels. Them joining is a huge wrench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Not putting stock into the show I was just using it as an example. My point being that if someone like the Lannisters joined the crowns cause, with all their gold and huge military, even if the Rebels ended up winning the war, it would have been prolonged much much much longer. Also the Tyrells would have also been able to leave a smaller force at Storms End, and a better Commander like Tywin (opposed to Mace) would have drawn out the battle plan and overall tactics that would have made things much much tougher on the rebels. Them joining is a huge wrench If Aerys had begged Tywin to retake the Handship after Conningtons failure, like Kevan thought he would do, then it would be a Royalist victroy, It wouldn't even be close. Had Tywin joined up at the end it would still probably be a Royalist victory. Ned tells us that there were several thousand loyalists at Kings Landing with Aerys, add Tywins initial 12k and that would give the Royalsits enough time to wait for Reach and Westerland reinforcements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 We have not been told the full story, or every single battle. Even at the end the loyalists outnumbered the Rebels and still had reinforcements in the Stormlands. Incompetent leadership cost them victory. Aerys not leaving Kings Landing, 4 different Hands, Rhaegar and the Lord Commander at the Tower of Joy meant that there was no clear leader to fight the rebels. Of course it was the incompetent leadership. Incompetent leadership started the entire mess in the first place. As to the loyalists outnumbering the rebels, that depends on who do you include. Neither the Reach nor Dorne send a meaningful amount of men. Iron Islands and Westerlands send none at all (and joined the rebels at the end). The loyalists were the Crownlands and a minority of Riverlords, a substantial amount of Stormlords and, for a few weeks only, some Lords of the Vale. Not putting stock into the show I was just using it as an example. My point being that if someone like the Lannisters joined the crowns cause, with all their gold and huge military, even if the Rebels ended up winning the war, it would have been prolonged much much much longer. Also the Tyrells would have also been able to leave a smaller force at Storms End, and a better Commander like Tywin (opposed to Mace) would have drawn out the battle plan and overall tactics that would have made things much much tougher on the rebels. Them joining is a huge wrench Yes, it would have been a longer and more difficult war. But it's not an instantwin for the loyalists as you implied. Most likely not even a win at all (or worse, a draw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If Tywin joins the war in the Loyalists side, they will gain a huge boost immediately. Then Aerys would burn Tywin alive for some reason. He ended up burning a lot of people he didn't had any reason to hate, why wouldn't he do the same to his greatest rival? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Of course it was the incompetent leadership. Incompetent leadership started the entire mess in the first place. As to the loyalists outnumbering the rebels, that depends on who do you include. Neither the Reach nor Dorne send a meaningful amount of men. Iron Islands and Westerlands send none at all (and joined the rebels at the end). The loyalists were the Crownlands and a minority of Riverlords, a substantial amount of Stormlords and, for a few weeks only, some Lords of the Vale. The Reach does, its just that poor leadership has them stuck in the Stormlands. The 40k with Rhaegar and whatever amount Mace had with him should have easily been able to deal with Robert. Rhaegar is too cocky, and a bit of an idiot, as he tells Jaime that there will be changes when he returns. He took victory for granted and didn't feel Mace's army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Reach does, its just that poor leadership has them stuck in the Stormlands. The 40k with Rhaegar and whatever amount Mace had with him should have easily been able to deal with Robert. Rhaegar is too cocky, and a bit of an idiot, as he tells Jaime that there will be changes when he returns. He took victory for granted and didn't feel Mace's army. The Reach did exactly as much as they needed to be called loyalists and not a bit more. Rhaegar couldn't have taken any more men inside the Riverlands. Too big an army is unsustainable, they'd starve. Of course I'm not disputing that he is an idiot, he most definitely is, but in that instance he had reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If Aerys had begged Tywin to retake the Handship after Conningtons failure, like Kevan thought he would do, then it would be a Royalist victroy, It wouldn't even be close. Had Tywin joined up at the end it would still probably be a Royalist victory. Ned tells us that there were several thousand loyalists at Kings Landing with Aerys, add Tywins initial 12k and that would give the Royalsits enough time to wait for Reach and Westerland reinforcements. If Aerys had begged Tywin to retake the Handship after Conningtons failure, like Kevan thought he would do, then it would be a Royalist victroy, It wouldn't even be close. Had Tywin joined up at the end it would still probably be a Royalist victory. Ned tells us that there were several thousand loyalists at Kings Landing with Aerys, add Tywins initial 12k and that would give the Royalsits enough time to wait for Reach and Westerland reinforcements. Yep exactly. That is what I have been saying. To his point only bone I was throwing was AT BEST, if the rebels ended up somehow winning it still would have taken a much much much longer time, cant dispute that. But agreed if they join on time I cant really see the crown winning unless they really drop the ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Reach did exactly as much as they needed to be called loyalists and not a bit more. Rhaegar couldn't have taken any more men inside the Riverlands. Too big an army is unsustainable, they'd starve. Of course I'm not disputing that he is an idiot, he most definitely is, but in that instance he had reason. He had 40k, against the Rebels 35k. Are you telling me an extra 5k-10k would starve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Reach did exactly as much as they needed to be called loyalists and not a bit more. Rhaegar couldn't have taken any more men inside the Riverlands. Too big an army is unsustainable, they'd starve. Of course I'm not disputing that he is an idiot, he most definitely is, but in that instance he had reason. That number also has to take into account the Riverlands was already devastated for a year of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If Tywin joins the war in the Loyalists side, they will gain a huge boost immediately. Then Aerys would burn Tywin alive for some reason. He ended up burning a lot of people he didn't had any reason to hate, why wouldn't he do the same to his greatest rival? Tywin was the one man that Aerys feared though. And he knew not to fuck with him, thats why even when Tywin resigned he went back to the rock and Aerys didnt interfere there. It was the one guy he was smart enough not to test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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