Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Reach did exactly as much as they needed to be called loyalists and not a bit more. Rhaegar couldn't have taken any more men inside the Riverlands. Too big an army is unsustainable, they'd starve. Of course I'm not disputing that he is an idiot, he most definitely is, but in that instance he had reason. The crown didnt have to invade the opposing way though, it was the north that needed to invade the south. The crown didnt have to push up and get fully north in any sort of a certain time. They would be fine with defending their half of the side and then only pushing up to end things once it would be close to finished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Tywin was the one man that Aerys feared though. And he knew not to fuck with him, thats why even when Tywin resigned he went back to the rock and Aerys didnt interfere there. It was the one guy he was smart enough not to test And this is exactly why Tywin would have been burned eventually. Rickard and Brandon weren't really a threat to him and he burned them alive. Why wouldn't he do the same to the one guy that was actually a serious threat? Basically, you're asking Aerys to be rational when his insanity was only growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 That number also has to take into account the Riverlands was already devastated for a year of war. Aerys wasnt involved in any of the main battle tactics or military plot. He had 0% responsibility when it came to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 And this is exactly why Tywin would have been burned eventually. Rickard and Brandon weren't really a threat to him and he burned them alive. Why wouldn't he do the same to the one guy that was actually a serious threat? Basically, you're asking Aerys to be rational when his insanity was only growing. Rickard and Brandon he had no fear of, and they confronted him in public making demands about wanting him to give up the prince and meet their demands. Tywin he did fear and had respect for, he knew how dangerous he was. Thats why he ripped out Paynes tongue when he was blabbing on how Tywin was the real power in KL. Everyone knew that he was, even the Madd King did deep down. He was not going to take any shit from north men that he didnt fear or know that well. Tywin was his hand for 20 years and he knew what he was capable of Jaime was also a KG so if he did that he would have ended up having to get Jaime as well. Tywin also loaned a crap load of gold out to the crown and was huge for their financial well being. Aerys was an idiot but not that much of one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 And this is exactly why Tywin would have been burned eventually. Rickard and Brandon weren't really a threat to him and he burned them alive. Why wouldn't he do the same to the one guy that was actually a serious threat? Basically, you're asking Aerys to be rational when his insanity was only growing. Brandon threatened the life of the heir of the Kingdom. That is punishable by death. Even the Starks know this as Robb tells the Greatjon that he could have had him executed for brandishing his sword against him. Aerys had been told that Rickard was plotting against him, he was convinced of this and thought that Brandon and the nobles he brought with him(from the North, Riverlands and the Vale) to murder his son was evidence of a plot against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 He had 40k, against the Rebels 35k. Are you telling me an extra 5k-10k would starve? 5,000 probably not. But would 5,000 make such a difference? The crown didnt have to invade the opposing way though, it was the north that needed to invade the south. The crown didnt have to push up and get fully north in any sort of a certain time. They would be fine with defending their half of the side and then only pushing up to end things once it would be close to finished In the end, the North didn't need to do anything. They could abandon the Stormlands, Riverlands and even the Vale and hole up behind Moat Cailin. The Crown needed to put down the rebellion before anybody else got ideas. And I don't even know how that is connected to what you quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Rickard and Brandon he had no fear of, and they confronted him in public making demands about wanting him to give up the prince and meet their demands. Tywin he did fear and had respect for, he knew how dangerous he was. Thats why he ripped out Paynes tongue when he was blabbing on how Tywin was the real power in KL. Everyone knew that he was, even the Madd King did deep down. He was not going to take any shit from north men that he didnt fear or know that well. Tywin was his hand for 20 years and he knew what he was capable of Jaime was also a KG so if he did that he would have ended up having to get Jaime as well. Tywin also loaned a crap load of gold out to the crown and was huge for their financial well being. Aerys was an idiot but not that much of one So he was an idiot enough to burn alive a LP and his son (who's betrothed to the daughter of another LP) and threaten two more with death and war (three if you count Ned) but he wouldn't be an idiot enough to burn Tywin, whom he hates and knows that the feeling is mutual? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. How is burning Tywin more reckless and crazy than anything Aerys already did, specially considering there's a war going on, he's losing, and he exiled a loyal man because he lost a battle? Brandon threatened the life of the heir of the Kingdom. That is punishable by death. Even the Starks know this as Robb tells the Greatjon that he could have had him executed for brandishing his sword against him. Aerys had been told that Rickard was plotting against him, he was convinced of this and thought that Brandon and the nobles he brought with him(from the North, Riverlands and the Vale) to murder his son was evidence of a plot against him. Aerys knew Tywin hated him and that he was plotting against him as well- which is the reason why he didn't recall Tywin in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 5,000 probably not. But would 5,000 make such a difference? 45k vs 35? Of course it would. To be honest we dont know enough about the battle. I imagine a better commander than Rhaegar would have made a bigger difference than numbers. Hightower lead Westeros in the war of the Nine Penny Kings, WTF was he doing babysitting at the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Aerys knew Tywin hated him and that he was plotting against him as well- which is the reason why he didn't recall Tywin in the first place. Well the Crown wasn't losing, they still had numerical advantage. He soon changed his mind at the end, grateful for Tywins return. I'm pretty sure that Tywin saving his bacon would have mended their relationship. For a few years at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 5,000 probably not. But would 5,000 make such a difference? In the end, the North didn't need to do anything. They could abandon the Stormlands, Riverlands and even the Vale and hole up behind Moat Cailin. The Crown needed to put down the rebellion before anybody else got ideas. And I don't even know how that is connected to what you quoted. The crown did not need to go north of moat cailin. It was Rob who wanted his wife back, and Ned and them who wanted his sister and justice for his brothers. They needed to take over KL. The crown didnt have to boost north and go get Winter fell. Also with the Lannisters joining, the Tyrells could have also left a 90% smaller force just to stay and keep Storms End blocked off. Then each of those houses and armies combined would have ended up being able to cover what they needed to and had the huge upper hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 . Hightower lead Westeros in the war of the Nine Penny Kings, WTF was he doing babysitting at the Tower of Joy. Are you implying Rhaegar was an idiot? How dare you sir? Don't you know he can do no wrong? So what if Gerold Hightower is the only man in the history of Westeros that commanded the entire continent, from Dornishmen to Northmen to Ironborn? Acting as glorified sentry for a pregnant teenage girl was much more important! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 45k vs 35? Of course it would. To be honest we dont know enough about the battle. I imagine a better commander than Rhaegar would have made a bigger difference than numbers. Hightower lead Westeros in the war of the Nine Penny Kings, WTF was he doing babysitting at the Tower of Joy. Maybe. It is an advantage, I just doubt that it would be a deciding one. Well the Crown wasn't losing, they still had numerical advantage. He soon changed his mind at the end, grateful for Tywins return. Meh, 150,000 loyalists, of whom about 100,000 are of dubious loyalty against 200,000 rebels, now mostly aligned, with about 70,000 neutrals sitting it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 5,000 probably not. But would 5,000 make such a difference? In the end, the North didn't need to do anything. They could abandon the Stormlands, Riverlands and even the Vale and hole up behind Moat Cailin. The Crown needed to put down the rebellion before anybody else got ideas. And I don't even know how that is connected to what you quoted. Any general worth his pay would put a huge military boost to its worth. Note: The loyaltist had the Reach on its side with its food stores, why couldn't Rhaegar just pull some of the resources Mace obviously was under using in SE for extra hungry men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So he was an idiot enough to burn alive a LP and his son (who's betrothed to the daughter of another LP) and threaten two more with death and war (three if you count Ned) but he wouldn't be an idiot enough to burn Tywin, whom he hates and knows that the feeling is mutual? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. How is burning Tywin more reckless and crazy than anything Aerys already did, specially considering there's a war going on, he's losing, and he exiled a loyal man because he lost a battle? Aerys knew Tywin hated him and that he was plotting against him as well- which is the reason why he didn't recall Tywin in the first place. I dont now what else I can say. Can respect your thoughts but im sorry there really isnt anyone ever that I have seen that thinks Aerys would have burned Tywin alive. Ever. He was the one guy he was legit scared of, he was never scared of any of the north men, he didnt give a shit who was married to who. thats why he did burn them lol. He had a crush on Tywins wife, and didnt even do anything when Tywin resigned, while there was hundreds of people he killed for way smaller reasons, but as said he knew better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Are you implying Rhaegar was an idiot? How dare you sir? Don't you know he can do no wrong? So what if Gerold Hightower is the only man in the history of Westeros that commanded the entire continent, from Dornishmen to Northmen to Ironborn? Acting as glorified sentry for a pregnant teenage girl was much more important! Prophecy trumps all logical planning, it is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Any general worth his pay would put a huge military boost to its worth. Note: The loyaltist had the Reach on its side with its food stores, why couldn't Rhaegar just pull some of the resources Mace obviously was under using in SE for extra hungry men? Because transportation is not feasible. You run into diminishing returns real quickly, when the wagon teams need more fodder than they can transport. I did the numbers a while back, in a discussion with Hear Me Meow. Don't have it at hand, but I believe it was about 100 miles. Ships can resolve that to a certain extent, but only to an extent and you need a free and mostly uncontested route. Even if the loyalists controlled the Trident for it's entire length (which they didn't), it would have tied their army to it and made it useless. You need to get your food locally, and there is only so much available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I dont now what else I can say. Can respect your thoughts but im sorry there really isnt anyone ever that I have seen that thinks Aerys would have burned Tywin alive. Ever. He was the one guy he was legit scared of, he was never scared of any of the north men, he didnt give a shit who was married to who. thats why he did burn them lol. He had a crush on Tywins wife, and didnt even do anything when Tywin resigned, while there was hundreds of people he killed for way smaller reasons, but as said he knew better But what I'm arguing is that Tywin would be the #1 candidate for burning EXACTLY BECAUSE Aerys feared him. If Aerys doesn't burn Tywin, he spends the rest of his days looking over his shoulder; if he does kill Tywin, he has nothing to fear from him anymore. How's that an argument AGAINST Aerys doing it? Aerys didn't burn Tywin earlier because he was at the time content by having his son as hostage. And his paranoia probably hadn't reached it's peak levels yet. But now with a war going on and him knowing that half of the realm is against him is something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Because transportation is not feasible. You run into diminishing returns real quickly, when the wagon teams need more fodder than they can transport. I did the numbers a while back, in a discussion with Hear Me Meow. Don't have it at hand, but I believe it was about 100 miles. Ships can resolve that to a certain extent, but only to an extent and you need a free and mostly uncontested route. Even if the loyalists controlled the Trident for it's entire length (which they didn't), it would have tied their army to it and made it useless. You need to get your food locally, and there is only so much available. The rebels overall though didnt really have any sort of Navy. And as said the Tyrells had the Storms End area on lock. The Lannisters would have had a navy as well to throw in which would have made all kinds of possible tactics wide open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The rebels overall though didnt really have any sort of Navy. And as said the Tyrells had the Storms End area on lock. The Lannisters would have had a navy as well to throw in which would have made all kinds of possible tactics wide open Which did the loyalists no good anywhere in the Riverlands. They could maybe feed the men at Storms End that way, but not in the middle of the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But what I'm arguing is that Tywin would be the #1 candidate for burning EXACTLY BECAUSE Aerys feared him. If Aerys doesn't burn Tywin, he spends the rest of his days looking over his shoulder; if he does kill Tywin, he has nothing to fear from him anymore. How's that an argument AGAINST Aerys doing it? Aerys didn't burn Tywin earlier because he was at the time content by having his son as hostage. And his paranoia probably hadn't reached it's peak levels yet. But now with a war going on and him knowing that half of the realm is against him is something else. Tywin would never let himself get caught in a position where Aerys would have been able to have him burned alive like that. And he would have bitten the hand that feeds, and would also piss off the most important house in his kingdoms especially in the finance part, and there were other Lannisters that would have taken up arms. Tywin was overall smarter than Aerys he wouldnt let himself get caught in a spot like that anyway, and Aerys still knew it was a bad move, he had no reason to look over his shoulder, Tywin went back to the rock and was a pretty mutual thing that they were just going to each live out their days apart from each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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