Wmarshal Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Quick question: Did Tywin march before or after the trident fight? Because the only way logical for him to get there before Ned to me was before. There is also the matter he went around the whole battle without issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Quick question: Did Tywin march before or after the trident fight? Because the only way logical for him to be Ned to me was before. There is also the matter he went around the whole battle without issue. After. He was ready to march, but only did after he heard the news (if the battle was inconclusive instead of a curbstomping, he might have waited). You don't have to pass through the battle site to go to KL. And if I'm not mistaken, he only brought his cavalry so he could move faster, and Ned didn't move to KL right away. Still, the difference was only a couple of hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 After. He was ready to march, but only did after he heard the news (if the battle was inconclusive instead of a curbstomping, he might have waited). You don't have to pass through the battle site to go to KL. And if I'm not mistaken, he only brought his cavalry so he could move faster, and Ned didn't move to KL right away. Still, the difference was only a couple of hours. Yes but the way to the battle site seems to be alot quicker to get there, the way to KL is carved with rivers. He could have found gallerys, but that would require time. I am drawing a blank on where Ned went before KL. I know he was catching loyalties, but they themselves were heading to KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 After. And he really hauled ass. 1,000 miles along the Goldroad, that's 50 days with a more normal pace. On the other hand, 500 miles along the Kingsroad is still four weeks. Have Ned reorganize his troops a bit after the battle and Tywin doing a death march and it's doable even from Casterly Rock. But maybe Tywin assembled his troops close to Silverhall or elsewhere on his eastern border, that would shave a couple weeks off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But maybe Tywin assembled his troops close to Silverhall or elsewhere on his eastern border, that would shave a couple weeks off. This is most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 After, naturally. Tywin only joined the war once he knew it was already won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate. Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him." Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought. Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei. He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk." "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands." Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing." "Then why did the Mountain kill her?" "Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him." Tywin sat out at Casterly Rock for the war. He called his banners after the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Tywin sat out at Casterly Rock for the war. He called his banners after the Trident. If he called his banners after the Trident, he would have arrived three months after Ned. If he marched after the Trident, he may have made it in time, with appropriate forced marching. He'd need his banners right there at Casterly Rock though, ready to go at a moment's notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If he called his banners after the Trident, he would have arrived three months after Ned. If he marched after the Trident, he may have made it in time, with appropriate forced marching. He'd need his banners right there at Casterly Rock though, ready to go at a moment's notice. He arrived at KL 12,000 men. That's not all of his forces. Everything says he sat out in Casterly Rock during the war. So what he did, IMO, was gather enough forces around him to hold Casterly Rock in case Robert marched on him (hence the "hiding" under Casterly Rock - he'd prepared to defend the Rock). Then when he heard Robert won the Trident, he called his banners and marched for KL, and picked up whatever forces he could on his way. Hence why he arrived without all of his forces. He took what he'd already gathered to defend Casterly Rock, and gathered whatever his lords could gather before he got to them and marched with that. Remember, he wasn't planning to fight for KL. He didn't need all of his forces. Just enough to be able to look like he could defend KL and be let in. IMO, it's just a logistical mistake that GRRM made for how Tywin possibly beat Ned to KL when they had to travel the same distance, but Ned had a head start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 12,000 men is a goodsized army. He had it available. Calling additional banners afterwards would have taken too long. He can beat Ned to KL: Ned needs to reorganize after the battle. And Tywin can forcemarch his troops. It is possible. By the way, Tywin had to travel twice the distance - but he'd be the one to have the head start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpati Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So Tywin did march after the battle, so that means he called his banners well before the battle was won by Robert. So what would Tywin have done if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident and Robert lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 12,000 men is a goodsized army. He had it available. Calling additional banners afterwards would have taken too long. He can beat Ned to KL: Ned needs to reorganize after the battle. And Tywin can forcemarch his troops. It is possible. By the way, Tywin had to travel twice the distance - but he'd be the one to have the head start. Yeah, but if he was prepared to defend Casterly Rock, which he was, then he'd probably have like 6,000 men at least. For instance the Cleganes, Crakehalls, and Westerlings fought at KL. Yet they're not on the way to KL. So they must have already been at Casterly Rock. They're nearby bannermen and Tywin probably had already at least gathered these men to defend Casterly Rock as he most assuredly did not call these bannermen and gather them on the way to KL. So yes he had forces with him, but he definitely did not keep 12,000 men sitting outside Casterly Rock for an entire year before he declared for Robert. There's no way he could feed that many men for that length of time and still be preparing for a siege. So he definitely had less than 12,000 men when he marched, and gathered the rest on the way. He can easily gather another 6,000 men on the way. All he needs to do is send out ravens and tell his men that he's declared for Robert and is marching for KL and will be taking whatever forces they have available. 6,000 men is easy for him to grab on the way and makes far more sense than for him to have already had 12,000 men available. And no, Ned would have the headstart. Tywin marched when he heard Robert won the Trident. He had to wait for news to reach him of this. Ned did not. Not only that, but Ned didn't even have to reorganize his troops. We're told he leads the van, and Tywin says that Ned was marching on KL with his van. So all Ned did was ride off with the troops already under his command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Yep as Jaime always said, Tywin was never one to risk picking a losing side. After Mace Tyrells only victory ever as well, when he chose to go put the siege on Stannis and Storms End........if Tywin would have jumped in the war right there, the crown would have probably for sure won. With fresh forces they would have been able to cut off the regroup and the rebels would have been in a real crap spot. But yep once the trident was over it was an easy choice for him. That said Mace Tyrell could have went after the rebels after his little 1 victory (As Stannis said he probably didnt want to risk his perfect record lol) and went to Storms End, but to be fair he was at least contributing to the cause. If Tywin jumped in after the Tyrell victory it would have been really grim for the rebels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So Tywin did march after the battle, so that means he called his banners well before the battle was won by Robert. So what would Tywin have done if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident and Robert lost? Probably still sat out and done nothing. It would still be 4 Lords Paramount against Aerys, with Mace basically sitting out the war like he was, and Dorne being basically reluctant combatants for the royalists. The royalists are still the less experienced troops. Now if key figures like Robert, Ned, Jon, and Hoster all died at the Trident, he might very well reconsider. Robert and Ned's heirs were far away in their castles so their troops couldn't rally around them. Edmure was somewhere between 6-16 at the time and possibly the riverlands could have rallied around him, but that depends how old he is, with the older he was the more likely the riverlands would rally around him. Jon had no heir. So if all 4 died, Tywin might reconsider and join up with the royalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So Tywin did march after the battle, so that means he called his banners well before the battle was won by Robert. So what would Tywin have done if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident and Robert lost? He would have fought for the crown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Methinks markg171 is taking the "hiding under Casterly Rock" comment WAY too literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So what would Tywin have done if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident and Robert lost? Waited. The Battle of the Trident could only be decisive in one direction. Yeah, but if he was prepared to defend Casterly Rock, which he was, then he'd probably have like 6,000 men at least. For instance the Cleganes, Crakehalls, and Westerlings fought at KL. Yet they're not on the way to KL. So they must have already been at Casterly Rock. They're nearby bannermen and Tywin probably had already at least gathered these men to defend Casterly Rock as he most assuredly did not call these bannermen and gather them on the way to KL. So yes he had forces with him, but he definitely did not keep 12,000 men sitting outside Casterly Rock for an entire year before he declared for Robert. There's no way he could feed that many men for that length of time and still be preparing for a siege. So he definitely had less than 12,000 men when he marched, and gathered the rest on the way. He can easily gather another 6,000 men on the way. All he needs to do is send out ravens and tell his men that he's declared for Robert and is marching for KL and will be taking whatever forces they have available. 6,000 men is easy for him to grab on the way and makes far more sense than for him to have already had 12,000 men available. And no, Ned would have the headstart. Tywin marched when he heard Robert won the Trident. He had to wait for news to reach him of this. Ned did not. Not only that, but Ned didn't even have to reorganize his troops. We're told he leads the van, and Tywin says that Ned was marching on KL with his van. So all Ned did was ride off with the troops already under his command. No way he can pick up 6,000 men along the Goldroad. A couple hundred, maybe. But not 6,000. He has to have them at Casterly Rock. Feeding them there is not a problem: Lannisport has spare food enough Ned would need to reorganize. Swap injured guys out, promote replacement, stuff like that. After Mace Tyrells only victory ever as well, when he chose to go put the siege on Stannis and Storms End........if Tywin would have jumped in the war right there, the crown would have probably for sure won. With fresh forces they would have been able to cut off the regroup and the rebels would have been in a real crap spot. Meh, Robert provided lile 10% of the rebel forces at best. Ashford was utterly unimportant in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The impression that I was under is that all of Tywins army was mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Waited. The Battle of the Trident could only be decisive in one direction. :agree: The crown had a lot more to lose at the Trident than the rebels did. Even if Rhaegar won the battle, Tywin would be making enemies of 4 Great Houses by joining him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Methinks markg171 is taking the "hiding under Casterly Rock" comment WAY too literally. Instead of just making up the story with no textual evidence? - Ned says Tywin sat out the war in Casterly rock ignoring calls to arms from both sides - Joffrey says he hid under Casterly Rock while Robert was winning the war. Neither Cersei, Tyrion, or Tywin deny his comments and are surprised that he's so bold as to call him out for it - Joffrey's comment upsets Tywin So yes, Tywin did hide in Casterly Rock. I'm taking it literally, because that's what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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