Controversial opinions on characters

[TallTyrion]

I like how Ned gets judged for Crowning Stannis since it will cause death, ok well how about Theon guaranteeing the death of all his country men by selfishly keeping them at Winterfell when they have no hope of holding it?

[INCBlackbird]

More like not willing to judge. (unless it's Ned of course)

oh I knew this one was coming but let's indulge you :

I never called Ned a bad person, in fact, I specifically stated that I think he's a good person, I simply don't agree with his morality. not agreeing with someone's principles =/= judging them as a person.

[INCBlackbird]

I like how Ned gets judged for Crowning Stannis since it will cause death, ok well how about Theon guaranteeing the death of all his country men by selfishly keeping them at Winterfell when they have no hope of holding it?

it's funny but I remember a certain scene where Theon gives his men a choice to leave or fight with him. yeah... I don't see any of the "morally superior" characters giving their men that choice...

[TallTyrion]

oh my god, have you even read what I said? it litarly goes like this me "separate this from the situation" you: "but the situation is this"

IT. IS. NOT. ABOUT. THE. SITUATION. IT'S. ABOUT. THE. PRINCIPLE

get back to me when you've bothered to read what I said.

Yeah Ned believes in the principal that a legitimate heir should inherit. Weird that he would believe in a principal that serves as pretty much the foundation for the entire society in which he lives.

Theon gets a pass on child murder because he wanted to be "loved" but Ned doesn't get a pass on holding to a principal that everyone in Westeros believes in...makes sense.

but... I've been over this with you? why do I need to repeat myself? so you can just ignore it again and continue saying the same thing? I'm doing this one more time: it wasn't about Theon's reputation. under Theon's watch, while he was trying to win respect that was supposed to lead to a place to belong and some appreciation, a cripple and a 4 year old escaped -> Theon loses any respect he ever had for this, obviously. so if he can't undo it somehow (for example by proving to everyone that he caught the boys) he will be shunned for his entire life, not just by his men but by his family. he will have no place to belong, no love, no appreciation, no value. he will be the laughing stock for the rest of his life. and what is it that Theon wants: love, respect, a place to belong. something most people have unconditionally, Theon's one of the few people who actually has to fight for it. so until you are in a situation where you are unloved/disrepected and laughed at, you have no buisness judging him for wanting those things.

Right so as I said all Theon loses is his reputation.

All he cares about is his reputation. People who will kill children to protect their reputation are bad. Therefore...I'll see if you can work that out on your own.

I've been in lots of situations where I've been laughed at and disrespected. Never killed any kids though

[TallTyrion]

it's funny but I remember a certain scene where Theon gives his men a choice to leave or fight with him. yeah... I don't see any of the "morally superior" characters giving their men that choice...

None of them lead their men into certain death to satisfy their own childish selfishness.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh God I must be an idiot for getting into this.

Sansa: Just as self-reliant and intelligent as Arya, just in a different way.

Stannis: Is delusional if he thinks the northerners won't turn on him when they get the chance.

Tyrion: Is a whiny, self-pitying git who uses his dwarfism as an excuse to not self-reflect and wonder if there are any other reasons why people don't like him. Oh and I think his humor is overly defensive and I find Jaime funnier.

Jaime: Will always be the guy who pushed a child off a tower, no matter what else he does.

Dany: Is still responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, not all of whom were evil slavers, and still cannot govern her way through a middle-school student council meeting.

Theon: Absolutely does not deserve what happened to him but is still a murderer.

Varys: Just as personally motivated as Littlefinger; too many gullible people take "for the good of the realm" at face value.

Tommen: Would actually make a decent king, pity.

Catelyn: Was a good mother who had no responsibility to raise and mother Jon.

Jon: GRRM is not going to subvert every damn trope for the sake of subversion. Deal with it.

Renly: Got what was coming to him.

:leaving:

[EatCrow]

how are people still misunderstanding this? I think i've explained this about a million times over and really, I didn't understand the first time WHY I even had to explain it cause GRRM makes it pretty damn clear. so yeah hereby I'm just gonna copy and paste one of my previous explanations on this :

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoys feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.

This is the first time we meet Theon and its a very defining moment. Bran remarks that he finds everything amusing and throughout the rest of the book we find that Theon smiles A LOT. But if, with the background information we now have on a reread, we look back at this moment, its already been made clear why Theon smiles so much. Theon is a hostage under threat of death, a position he has been in since he was 9. And at this particular moment he has just witnessed an execution knowing that any day it could be him on the block being decapitated with the same sword, by the same man, and he is helpless to do anything to stop it, his own fate is beyond his control.

So Theon developed a defense mechanism, this particular defense mechanism is called reaction formation (Reaction formation is a defensive process in which emotions and impulses that are anxiety-producing or perceived to be unacceptable are mastered by displaying an exaggeration of the directly opposing tendency.) Theon smiles to hide his fear, sadness and feelings of helplessness. And it goes beyond hiding them from others, more so its about denying the very existence of them to himself.

Id like to skip ahead a little to Catelyns first chapter in a clash of kings:

When Robb pretty much spells out Theons hostage situation, Catelyn notices him smiling again. We cant know what Theon is thinking but its not so difficult to guess.

I shall release my own captives taken in the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps, save Jaime Lannister alone, who will remain my hostage for his fathers good behavior. She studied Theon Greyjoys sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.

notice how again, when something painfull connected to Theon's situation is mentioned and Theon is smiling. yeah... Theon was clearly the person there who found that execution the least fun of all of them.

[Ser Greenseer]

Oh God I must be an idiot for getting into this.

Sansa: Just as self-reliant and intelligent as Arya, just in a different way.

Stannis: Is delusional if he thinks the northerners won't turn on him when they get the chance.

Tyrion: Is a whiny, self-pitying git who uses his dwarfism as an excuse to self-reflect and wonder if there are any other reasons why people don't like him. Oh and I think his humor is overly defensive and I find Jaime funnier.

Jaime: Will always be the guy who pushed a child off a tower, no matter what else he does.

Dany: Is still responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, not all of whom were evil slavers, and still cannot govern her way through a middle-school student council meeting.

Theon: Absolutely does not deserve what happened to him but is still a murderer.

Varys: Just as personally motivated as Littlefinger; too many gullible people take "for the good of the realm" at face value.

Tommen: Would actually make a decent king, pity.

Catelyn: Was a good mother who had no responsibility to raise and mother Jon.

Jon: GRRM is not going to subvert every damn trope for the sake of subversion. Deal with it.

Renly: Got what was coming to him.

:leaving:

I agree with pretty much all of these.

[TallTyrion]

Oh God I must be an idiot for getting into this.

Sansa: Just as self-reliant and intelligent as Arya, just in a different way.

Stannis: Is delusional if he thinks the northerners won't turn on him when they get the chance.

Tyrion: Is a whiny, self-pitying git who uses his dwarfism as an excuse to self-reflect and wonder if there are any other reasons why people don't like him. Oh and I think his humor is overly defensive and I find Jaime funnier.

Jaime: Will always be the guy who pushed a child off a tower, no matter what else he does.

Dany: Is still responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, not all of whom were evil slavers, and still cannot govern her way through a middle-school student council meeting.

Theon: Absolutely does not deserve what happened to him but is still a murderer.

Varys: Just as personally motivated as Littlefinger; too many gullible people take "for the good of the realm" at face value.

Tommen: Would actually make a decent king, pity.

Catelyn: Was a good mother who had no responsibility to raise and mother Jon.

Jon: GRRM is not going to subvert every damn trope for the sake of subversion. Deal with it.

Renly: Got what was coming to him.

:leaving:

I agree with pretty much all of that. I would go a bit softer on Danny but in general I think you're correct.

[INCBlackbird]

None of them lead their men into certain death to satisfy their own childish selfishness.

That wasn't the argument, you accused Theon of something, I proved you objectively wrong (if you need textual evidence, I can provide it). do you admit that you were wrong?

[Ser Greenseer]

That wasn't the argument, you accused Theon of something, I proved you objectively wrong (if you need textual evidence, I can provide it). do you admit that you were wrong?

What exactly did you prove?

[TallTyrion]

That wasn't the argument, you accused Theon of something, I proved you objectively wrong (if you need textual evidence, I can provide it). do you admit that you were wrong?

I said Theon lead his men into certain death, which is what happened.

I didn't remember him giving them the option to leave. So fine if you want to take some sort of victory from that go ahead. It's inconsequential to the larger discussion.

Also when did he give them option to leave?

[INCBlackbird]

What exactly did you prove?

I said Theon lead his men into certain death, which is what happened.

I didn't remember him giving them the option to leave. So fine if you want to take some sort of victory from that go ahead. It's inconsequential to the larger discussion.

this is what you said:

I like how Ned gets judged for Crowning Stannis since it will cause death, ok well how about Theon guaranteeing the death of all his country men by selfishly keeping them at Winterfell when they have no hope of holding it?

whereas this is what happened:

"'The northmen will be on us before nightfall,' he told them. 'Ser Rodrik Cassel and all the lords who have come to his call. I will not run from them. I took this castle and I mean to hold it, to live or die as Prince of Winterfell. But I will not command any man to die with me. If you leave now, before Ser Rodrik’s main force is upon us, there’s still a chance you may win free.' He unsheathed his longsword and drew a line in the dirt. 'Those who would stay and fight, step forward.'” - Theon VI (ACOK)

[Boarsbane]

Oberyn was an ass hole and I didn't find his over confidence or care free nature endearing. I cheered when Gregor turned the tables on him and bashed his face in.

Randyll Tarly is the kind of man the Riverlands needs to restore order and root out the Brotherhood thugs.

[TallTyrion]

this is what you said:

whereas this is what happened:

"'The northmen will be on us before nightfall,' he told them. 'Ser Rodrik Cassel and all the lords who have come to his call. I will not run from them. I took this castle and I mean to hold it, to live or die as Prince of Winterfell. But I will not command any man to die with me. If you leave now, before Ser Rodrik’s main force is upon us, there’s still a chance you may win free.' He unsheathed his longsword and drew a line in the dirt. 'Those who would stay and fight, step forward.'” - Theon VI (ACOK)

So what? Everything they did until that point they did under Theon's command. He's 100% responsible for the situation they are in.

Theon giving them a chance to bail at the last minute doesn't change the fact that he lead his men to their deaths, which was the obvious outcome of not leaving with Asha. He's the commander and the King's son people are obviously going to follow his lead.

ETA

Also the men who abandon Winterfell are still gonna die 9 times out of 10. If the big Northern host coming their way doesn't get them the Iron Islands aren't exactly gonna be welcoming the guys that left the prince to die alone.

[INCBlackbird]

So what? Everything they did until that point they did under Theon's command. He's 100% responsible for the situation they are in.

Theon giving them a chance to bail at the last minute doesn't change the fact that he lead his mean to their deaths, which was the obvious outcome of not leaving with Asha. He's the commander and the King's son people are obviously going to follow his lead.

so you were not wrong than? Theon is forcefully keeping his men in Winterfell = giving them a choice to leave. love how I've got you on the spot and you're still argueing. the text litarly contradicts what you said. it's become clear to me that argueing with you has no point because you're just spewing random bullshit so yeah, good day.

and no people did not obviously follow his, 17 joined him, the others didn't.

[TallTyrion]

so you were not wrong than? Theon is forcefully keeping his men in Winterfell = giving them a choice to leave. love how I've got you on the spot and you're still argueing. the text litarly contradicts what you said. it's become clear to me that argueing with you has no point because you're just spewing random bullshit so yeah, good day.

You chose to interpret "keeping his men at Wintefell" as forcefully keeping them there. He's their commander he lead them into a situation they couldn't win. Then when given an out, leaving with Asha, he doesn't take it i.e. He kept his men there with no hope of holding the castle.

[INCBlackbird]

You chose to interpret "keeping his men at Wintefell" as forcefully keeping them there. He's their commander he lead them into a situation they couldn't win. Then when given an out, leaving with Asha, he doesn't take it i.e. He kept his men there with no hope of holding the castle.

but he didn't keep them ther at all... how is this even an argument there's textual proof?

[rhaenys666]

Fuck theon. Seriously. I think I've said that a million times on this site.

Sansa, you do you girl.

jon is so boring. I usually skip his chapters on my rereads.

Sandor, fuck yeah. On everything. Total anti-hero.

stannis is rightful king, but it ain't gonna happen.

Dany. Thats my giiiiiirrrrrrl.

Tyrion gets a harsh rap. Got love for dude.

Aegon is so obvious he has to die.

bran, kid is going to be so much more involved with the upcoming war against the others than anyone else I think.

I really like the name tywin. Considered it as a middle name for my boy.

And I dont say this enough, but fuck theon. Seriously.

[TallTyrion]

but he didn't keep them ther at all... how is this even an argument there's textual proof?

Ok I'll try to walk you through this as best I can.

Theon leads his men in a campaign to take Winterfell. The only way he can keep the castle is with his sister's support. When his sister denies him that support the game is over. Any idiot knows that staying in the Castle with no support means the death of his men. Yet he stays. His choice to keep his men at Winterfell at that point means he lead them to certain death. Lorren councils him to abandon the castle at that point and he says he won't give up his seat.

He selfishly stays there, the men under his command are his responsibility. Him giving them the option to bail at the last minute doesn't negate his responsibility. Their hope for holding the castle was gone long before his "line in the dirt" speech.