Controversial opinions on characters

[239JMFL34109]

Jaime pushing Bran out of the window is (although a dick move) justifiable.

yeah i get why he does what he does and i feel for him but he is alway and ever more is he a dick.

[Woofless]

Oh this reminds me. I don't care how many certified assholes (including but not limited to the people on her list) she kills, how, when, in what manner and I couldn't care less whether she follows some stupid official procedure. I still won't consider her damaged goods, psychopath, a budding serial killer, lacking a moral compass or anything but awesome and a fucking hero.

Was beginning to think I was alone in this.

YES!!! I will always consider her the most awesome and bravest character in the series and I think that after "the big three", she'll have most important role in the last book.

Yes!!! Indeed. Totally agree.

[Anythingatall]

My unpopular/controversial opinions:

- I sympathized a lot with Theon even before he was tortured by Ramsay.

Me too, I mean the guy is a giant tool but his toolery is so naive it's tragic.

I would have liked to have hated him, just to see how it felt to read him as Reek.

[239JMFL34109]

Personally, my controversial opinion is this: Varys IS a good guy, and he IS serving the realm. How's that?

i could actually believe that it is always why i thought he might have worked against rhaegar because he (and i) found a VERY able magic prophecy obsessed prince who think he is out to save the world a worry.

[Anythingatall]

Tyrion killing Tywin - YAY!, also I don't hold him in any way responsible for Tysha's rape.

Catelyn being cold with Jon is not okay.

Until ADWD Jon checks all the boxes of a Mary Sue, however I still liked him which is why I don't consider him one.

Dany killing the Masters - Hurray!

[Dragon in the North]

ok first of all, I'm not saying Theon had no way to develop a moral compass, I'm saying he didn't yet because of the circemstances. he could possibly have but he didn't. second I have to disagree that Ned and Catelyn have a moral compass. I don't consider what they have a moral compass honor =/= morality. or well maybe I should say it's A moral compass but it's a flawed one. I'm sorry but Ned thinks Jaime should have let the mad king burn all of kings landing down just because he swore an oath to him and Ned thinks it's ok to start a war and have all those thousends of citizens die for it, just so he can put the what he considers "rightfull king" (because he's the rightfull king by law mind you) on the throne. I don't call that morality in any way shape or form. don't get me wrong, there are things about Ned's "moral" compass that I like, like the whole "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword"

and yes his children emulate this. like when Arya kills the night watch deserter because according to her father he deserves to die...

there is no direct text evidense of Ned punishing Theon for "doing something wrong" there is direct text evidense for Ned abusing Theon for being a child. http://thrumbolt.tumblr.com/post/66959501076/so-in-the-reek-ii-chapter-in-adwd-there-is-this

about that last part I do kind of agree actually. because there is this line where his men are stealing from the corpses and Theon can't do it because he feels wrong. so yeah, I guess he had some kind of moral compass but it was based on what ned "taught" him and I consider a lot of that wrong. and I do think you need to feel guilt yourself to really understand what is right/wrong. because I mean there's a difference between Ned's "rational" moral compass that's not based on feelings but based on what he was taught and the inner moral compass people have because they have empathy and they do something that they know hurts others and they can feel how wrong it is. I find the latter superior to the first, mostly because the first one (in Ned's case) is based on honor and what is right/wrong according to the law and I simply don't agree that that has anything to do with morality, it's just another way to control people. that law is there to protect the rich (even when they're corrupt.) and ultimately morality comes from empathy, not from the law. but yes, he was screwed over because he couldn't get rid of what Ned taught him...

Ned didn't know about the wildfire. The only one who knew about it was Jaime, and then later, Brienne. Also, the war had already started before Ned attempted the coup. If his plan succeeded, Tywin would have been forced to yield and the war would have been won without bloodshed. Unfortunately, he was unknowingly being manipulated by Littlefinger.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

certain things are left ambiguous yes, but not this. it's the most obvious thing ever... we also get to read Theon's pov's and it's clear that he was scared. his reaction is very obvious and it doesn't just happen with this. every time he's smiling he's hiding another emotion, it's an extremely common defense mechanism...

Having a defense mechanism because he's insecure does make theon not a jerk - it just makes him an insecure jerk. I would say that 99% of the frat boy douchebags getting girls drunk out there so they can have sex are in fact insecure and full of false bravado. They are still jerks.

Jerk-ness is about how your actions affect other people. Theon is a jerk because his actions are harmful to others. The fact that they are a product of his insecurity or some other reason entirely ("inherent evilness" is a myth) doesn't matter too much.

[Caesar Targaryen]

Tywin: He was/is the king that the realm needs, but not necessarily the one it deserves.

[HexMachina]

Jaime pushing Bran out of the window is (although a dick move) justifiable.

Committing one crime to hide another crime is not justifiable.

[Sweetgirl205]

Ned was too good for his own good. His nobleness made him forget good, old fashioned common sense. A lot of the war is all dear old Ned's fault. Why on Earth did he even hint to Cersie he knew her secret? Idiot.

Jamie is misunderstood. However, why does everyone blame Cersie for the incest? It takes two to tango.

[Maid So Fair]

ok first of all, I'm not saying Theon had no way to develop a moral compass, I'm saying he didn't yet because of the circemstances. he could possibly have but he didn't. second I have to disagree that Ned and Catelyn have a moral compass. I don't consider what they have a moral compass honor =/= morality. or well maybe I should say it's A moral compass but it's a flawed one. I'm sorry but Ned thinks Jaime should have let the mad king burn all of kings landing down just because he swore an oath to him and Ned thinks it's ok to start a war and have all those thousends of citizens die for it, just so he can put the what he considers "rightfull king" (because he's the rightfull king by law mind you) on the throne. I don't call that morality in any way shape or form. don't get me wrong, there are things about Ned's "moral" compass that I like, like the whole "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword"

and yes his children emulate this. like when Arya kills the night watch deserter because according to her father he deserves to die...

there is no direct text evidense of Ned punishing Theon for "doing something wrong" there is direct text evidense for Ned abusing Theon for being a child. http://thrumbolt.tumblr.com/post/66959501076/so-in-the-reek-ii-chapter-in-adwd-there-is-this

about that last part I do kind of agree actually. because there is this line where his men are stealing from the corpses and Theon can't do it because he feels wrong. so yeah, I guess he had some kind of moral compass but it was based on what ned "taught" him and I consider a lot of that wrong. and I do think you need to feel guilt yourself to really understand what is right/wrong. because I mean there's a difference between Ned's "rational" moral compass that's not based on feelings but based on what he was taught and the inner moral compass people have because they have empathy and they do something that they know hurts others and they can feel how wrong it is. I find the latter superior to the first, mostly because the first one (in Ned's case) is based on honor and what is right/wrong according to the law and I simply don't agree that that has anything to do with morality, it's just another way to control people. that law is there to protect the rich (even when they're corrupt.) and ultimately morality comes from empathy, not from the law. but yes, he was screwed over because he couldn't get rid of what Ned taught him...

Indeed. And a flawed moral compass (I disagree in Ned and Cat's case, but that's immaterial to the argument) is still a moral compass. It't not like Theon is trying to transcend Ned's morality or doing what is right instead of what is honourable. On the contrary, the things he does are against the moral principles that Ned and Cat most definitely got right like not murdering innocent children. And yes, Theon knows it was wrong and not just after he's done it and he started to feel guilty - he knew it was wrong all along and he did it anyway. Nor did he stop there. Just like he did quite a few other things he knew were wrong but justified doing to himself.

Would you not call knocking over a very old woman doing something wrong? She could have fallen down the stairs and severely injured herself. Hell, she could have died. My grandmother slipped on some ice while walking on a flat surface, broke her hip, and never truly recovered. So, yes, he's disciplining Theon. I'm also not willing to extend the (quite controversial) very modern principle that any physical punishment is always automatically wrong to a medieval setting or believe that website's frankly ridiculous claims that 'trashing' means being whipped. You're confusing Ned with Ramsay.

Are you honestly claiming that Ned lacks empathy?

As for Jaime, Ned (nor anybody else apart from some random alchemists) doesn't know about the wildfire plot and Jaime doesn't deign to inform him. So that one's on Jaime. As for starting war, what war? The war in the Riverlands, that was already in full progress (because Tywin started it) when Ned proclaimed Stannis? Or the assault on KL that Stannis and Renly would have tried to go for anyway, quoting legal right and self-preservation respectively? The rebellion to oppose a madman who was planning to burn an entire city as you just mentioned? Or the defensive war against Ironborn aggression?

ETA: It's strange that you sympathise so strongly with Theon yet not with a shy man whose father and brother were brutally murdered, whose sister died and other brother joined the NW not long after, who was raised away from family and never prepared for the leadership role he was trust into, forced to fight a war that would determine the future of his family at a younger age than ACOK Theon. Whose crush commited suicide after he was forced to marry for duty. Who is still clearly haunted by these experiences. And that's not even going into the whole Jon thing.

[INCBlackbird]

He's to blame for his action, those kids didn't kill themselfs. Compared to other great houses and Greyjoys Starks were perfect family...He was threated with all respects and like a true highborn whats so wrong with that? Half of characters were outsiders ,everyone was at some point an outsider, he felt like an outsider so he kills children? Again compared to other characters he did have it easy...Theon haters? ROFL, there is a difference between a hater and someone who dislikes Theon "oh poor Theon, he was a saint ,its everyone else foult not him, blablabla".

Yes,that is my point, if he staied with Balon he would probably be treated worse than Stark treated him...

I never said he wasn't to blame for his actions. I never said he wasn't. but his behavior came from somewhere and it came from: his personality, his early childhood with his messed up family and his hostage situation. it all plays a role into who Theon became. and he did suffer a lot because of things that weren't his fault.

Theon wasn't treated with respect though, he was treated like a high born hostage yes, but still a hostage. and he was mistrusted by pretty much everyone but Robb, simply for being called Greyjoy. you'd think that maybe if they hadn't mistrusted him he wouldn't have these issues with divided loyalties. Maybe if they'd given him some love and respect he wouldn't have these confidense issues that cause him to lie to himself all the time...

the point is that Theon was an outsider for half his life (including his formative years).

tell me, which characters had it worse than Theon?

someone who dislikes Theon and refuses to see the situation from his perspective because of their dislike is a Theon hater.

I never said he was a saint and I never said he wasn't at fault. I'm only looking at the situation from another perspective than the Starks'

He wouldn't have a great life no, but there's a difference between having an asshole of a father and not having a father at all but instead a man who's holding you captive under threat of death. not to mention that on the iron islands he'd have alannys, asha, dagmer... in winterfell he only had Robb, who's younger than him. plus, if he had stayed on the iron islands Balon wouldn't have any reason to shun him, he still wouldn't be a great father but with his brothers dead he might have just focussed his hopes on Theon and given him the chance to prove himself and if we can believe Dagmer, he would have. bye bye confidense issues, bye bye defense mechanisms. so sorry, but I think Theon would have been much better off not living as a captive under threat of death...

[INCBlackbird]

Ned didn't know about the wildfire. The only one who knew about it was Jaime, and then later, Brienne. Also, the war had already started before Ned attempted the coup. If his plan succeeded, Tywin would have been forced to yield and the war would have been won without bloodshed. Unfortunately, he was unknowingly being manipulated by Littlefinger.

than maybe Ned should have inquired as to what happened before desiding that all Lannisters are monsters by default.

and I'm well aware the war would have started either way, but Ned didn't know that. i'm talking about this conversation:

"'The throne by rights passes to Lord Stannis, the elder of Robert’s two brothers.' Lord Petyr stroked his pointed beard as he considered the matter. 'So it would seem. Unless...' 'Unless, my lord? There is no seeming to this. Stannis is the heir. Nothing can change that.'" [...] "'So it will be Stannis, and war?' 'It is not a choice. Stannis is the heir.'” and this is my opinion on it: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/08/02/eddard-starks-ethics-of-honor

[INCBlackbird]

Having a defense mechanism because he's insecure does make theon not a jerk - it just makes him an insecure jerk. I would say that 99% of the frat boy douchebags getting girls drunk out there so they can have sex are in fact insecure and full of false bravado. They are still jerks.

Jerk-ness is about how your actions affect other people. Theon is a jerk because his actions are harmful to others. The fact that they are a product of his insecurity or some other reason entirely ("inherent evilness" is a myth) doesn't matter too much.

I'm not argueing that he's a jerk. he is. the argument was about Theon kicking the head of the deserter and smiling. which was clearly a manifestation of him being scared that next time it would be him on the block. and it's not an ambiguous thing, it's made pretty clear throughout the books on several occasions.

[Maid So Fair]

tell me, which characters had it worse than Theon?

Let's see. Viserys. Dany. Gendry and most of the young NW recruits Arya travels with. Hell, Arya. Sansa. All the children that Brienne finds in that inn. Arguably Tyrion. Tysha. That girl that Gregor demands some change for. Unsullied. Missandei. There's probably a lot more.

[Oafkeeper]

The idea Tywin makes the tough but right choices is bullshit. Everything Tywin does is for Tywin.

[239JMFL34109]

Ned was too good for his own good. His nobleness made him forget good, old fashioned common sense. A lot of the war is all dear old Ned's fault. Why on Earth did he even hint to Cersie he knew her secret? Idiot.

Jamie is misunderstood. However, why does everyone blame Cersie for the incest? It takes two to tango.

again Ned has got to have PTSD or something.

Also Jamie-cersei i always saw it as an abusive relationship were cersei used sex as the carrot.

[239JMFL34109]

The idea Tywin makes the tough but right choices is bullshit. Everything Tywin does is for Tywin.

he is in the walter white school of "this is for my family!!"

[Oafkeeper]

Not really. WW started off wanting to do it for his actual living family members although it eventually became about him.

Tywin doesn't seem to care for his actual living family except what they can do for him and his abstraction of The Great House Lannister™ which I suspect he has conflated with himself.

[INCBlackbird]

Indeed. And a flawed moral compass (I disagree in Ned and Cat's case, but that's immaterial to the argument) is still a moral compass. It't not like Theon is trying to transcend Ned's morality or doing what is right instead of what is honourable. On the contrary, the things he does are against the moral principles that Ned and Cat most definitely got right like not murdering innocent children. And yes, Theon knows it was wrong and not just after he's done it and he started to feel guilty - he knew it was wrong all along and he did it anyway. Nor did he stop there. Just like he did quite a few other things he knew were wrong but justified doing to himself.

Would you not call knocking over a very old woman doing something wrong? She could have fallen down the stairs and severely injured herself. Hell, she could have died. My grandmother slipped on some ice while walking on a flat surface, broke her hip, and never truly recovered. So, yes, he's disciplining Theon. I'm also not willing to extend the (quite controversial) very modern principle that any physical punishment is always automatically wrong to a medieval setting or believe that website's frankly ridiculous claims that 'trashing' means being whipped. You're confusing Ned with Ramsay.

Are you honestly claiming that Ned lacks empathy?

As for Jaime, Ned (nor anybody else apart from some random alchemists) doesn't know about the wildfire plot and Jaime doesn't deign to inform him. So that one's on Jaime. As for starting war, what war? The war in the Riverlands, that was already in full progress (because Tywin started it) when Ned proclaimed Stannis? Or the assault on KL that Stannis and Renly would have tried to go for anyway, quoting legal right and self-preservation respectively? The rebellion to oppose a madman who was planning to burn an entire city as you just mentioned? Or the defensive war against Ironborn aggression?

I don't think Theon didn't think it was wrong, I just think he hadn't really thought about it that much. because, as mentioned before, Theon's always in his own head. and I think that he would have probably told himself that they were just miller boys and that he shouldn't care whether they lived or died, and that he had no choice (which in his mind, he really didn't. he was kinda desparate at the time. on the brink of losing everything he cared about) and I think that through that he created a moral compass that wasn't based on the standards of the world he lives in. because the world he lives in does tell him that he shouldn't care about the lives of some peasants. I mean, most high lords would have done what he did without a second thought. but than we have Jeyne Poole, who's worth nothing politically but Theon is beyond politics now. He wants to help her because he cares about her as a person. He wants to give her what he never got, being valued as a person, because Theon was a political tool himself for most of his life, which is what hurt him.

it's not like he knocked her over on purpose. it was an accident. which child doesn't do dangerous things like running up the stairs and jumping down and all that stuff. Theon just happened to cause an accident while he was playing. that's my main problem. that it was an accident and that caused him his "worst thrashing at winterfell" and then there's the thing where despite what arya and Bran do (deliberatly disobeying on multiple occasions) and they didn't get any corporal punishment. I wouldn't call it abuse if it were commonplace, but it seems like it wasn't, it seems like Theon was singled out in this matter. but whatever, I've debated this before, I know you won't believe me because Ned Stark wouldn't be that unfair or something? and sure I can't "prove" it. it's simply what I got from the text. so if you don't agree let's just agree to disagree on the matter, it's been debated toroughly and there's no end to it.

when did I claim that Ned lacks empathy? I don't think Ned lacks empathy, I think he's one of the nicest people in those books despite my personal disliking for him because there are things about his personality that unnerve me. I just don't think he is the epitome of Morality (i'll attribute that to Davos and Doran)

on the last part, see my post above.