Controversial opinions on characters

[imaginepageant]

I believe Jaime was justified in pushing Bran out of the window, and I would do the same thing to protect the lives of the person I love and our children.

I strongly dislike Ned, and I think he is one of the most idiotic characters in the series. Even though he was "honorable" in the typical sense, I think it was dishonorable to put his own children in a highly dangerous situation for the sake of saving someone else's children.

I hold no love for Robb, either, and think he's almost as much of an idiot as his father was.

I believe Joffrey was more a product of Robert's nurture than Cersei and Jaime's nature.

I find Davos to be the most boring character in the series.

I don't think Viserys was all that bad of a guy, and I feel a lot of sympathy for him.

I think Tywin was brilliant for orchestrating the Red Wedding. Actually, I just think Tywin was brilliant, period.

[Fisch]

I've been over this as well bad action =/= bad person. a good person can still do a bad thing.

nope, I understand Theon's character and I understand where his actions came from, still don't agree with them, I just don't think he's a bad person. is that so difficult to grasp?

Frankly, yes.

Your first sentence in this quote is the difference between empathy and excuses IMO. Because you haven't excused Theon's actions, that's true enough. But how many bad actions does it take before you take them as saying something about a person's character? As I said before, there comes a point where the reasons behind don't matter; what matters is what you make of yourself.

But at this point, I'd rather read the back-and-forth than contribute to it further. You're clearly sold on Theon being a good man, and at the end of the day, he's a fictional character and you're more than welcome to see him how you wish. Theon is someone I enjoy myself, as an interesting and varied character, though I find him pathetically despicable before his fall and pitiable afterwards. Enjoy him and the story your way, and I'll enjoy it in mine.

[Orbulas B. Harding]

Note: to me being heroic is a mater of their outer action and not their internal motives

Petyr: A tragic figure with a heartbreaking "origin" and an ultimately tremendous and powerfully heroic turn to take in the major conflicts to come.
Theon: A wonderfully complex and, again, tragic character with a lot more ground to cover before Martin lets the poor guy die,
Jaime: Again, another troubled/misunderstood tragic hero with a lot more story... he will be a great leader of men. Likely to save Tyrion from himself.
Tyrion: I see Martin setting him up to take a more "villainous" role in the story, I think he's Martin's Walter White. There is something great and sinister that we'll find has been guiding him down his path for a long time and he will find himself seduced by what it promises, both he and Euron are part of a tall and twisted thing with 10 long arms and 'one black eye' sailing on a tide of blood. He will come to wield and master great power in Essos and he will be consumed with hate and reap a mighty vengeance on Westeros before he rights his ship... he might commit a heresy for a lost love that causes the long night... he'd be the lion of night.
Cersie: There is still hope for her to have a heroic role
Ser Robert Strong: Might not be all bad
Benjen: I think he's been part of a sinister master plan from the start and he is actually the author of the letter to Jon
The Dusky Woman: I think she'll be quite important and may be carrying a Vic Shadow baby that could blow the Dragon Horn. I think she'll factor in to Tyrion's story, maybe even mothering a shadow demon for the half man.
Arya: Will be like the Stranger made flesh, riding a pale mare, human features always partially obscured. She will be a decisive weapon in the final conflict as the only person that can bring the gift of death to some great force or single being that must pass in to death so that Planetos fire/ice curse of unbalance can end (this probably means the end of all magic on planetos. It might be her bringing death to the entire eternal consciousness of planetos by killing Bran whose death would spread throughout the singers spirit network)
Rickon: on his way to being sacrificed to the Others
Manderly: Not on the side he says he is
Dark Star: Really meant to come off that gothy and dramatic and will prove to be tremendously fun. Have theories about him I wont bother sharing.
Daeny: Half Dayne. Part of a lemon tree conspiracy. will be a fire that burns away half the world. Was possibly experiencing morning sickness in her last chapter... might be a Rosemary's baby scenario
Blood Raven: One of the most awesome characters in the entire series... when I hear BR smack talk I role my eyes, that dude is totally fucking awesome
Bran: Has some of the very best written chapters. Haunting and beautiful, his whole arc is exemplary of a lot of the series major appeal to me... it's got a lot of very creepy horror elements to it and is slowly ramping up the mythical epic ragnoroking that will come
Aegon/Young Griff: His authenticity does not matter. He might be the PtwP, but the PtwP isn't meant to rule until the war between ice and fire has ended (and killed pretty much everybody else, leaving the earth scorched/frozen/flooded and pretty much every bit of the past order in ruins.
Sansa: The "bound to double cross LF and kill him plot" is the most obvious thing ever (I mean, everybody here is already so sure it will happen... and you guys aren't really the most inventive story tellers, you still assume that Martin is going for so many old tropes. She'll be a cunning player of the game, but not at the expense of LF, rather, to his credit.
Asha: I don't know what people think of her... I think she is an incredible bad ass... who might be knocked up
Roose: Has a few more tricks up his sleeve and schemes to reveal.
Lady Dustin: is in the same "schemes" boat with Roose and will prove very interesting.
Ramsey: Might be put to the chopping block by his own pops... Lady Dustin and Roose know some shit about the crypts and want a Lord of Winterfell to sacrifice
Varys: On the side of the realm
Illyrio: he is too, and we'll learn some secrets about him.
Euron: Has an incredible Heath Ledger Joker vibe to him and is being set up as one of the more powerful forces of magic in the story, his mix of possible power and cackling chaotic evil "last storm" super sadist makes me pretty sure he will be one of the series defining villains in the next two books and he will have a very major presence in things (also, he's one of the coolest looking characters, maybe one of the stories signature players)
Marwyn: Crazy heathen maniac... but one with great intentions. He'll be pivotal in the further expansion of magical elements in the Essos stories and will probably take to teaching Tyrion to cast his great shadow.
Perhaps Both Ice and Fire have been manipulated in to this world ending confrontation by a third party that is human in nature or human and cotf. I think this is "the shadow" Dany must pass
Jon: "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."
Hightowers: There arrival will be part of a major conspiracy to be revealed, they might have their hands in a great many things.
Stoneheart: will be a catalyst for great dark powers rising... but her final act might be one of heroic sacrifice that recalls the late Caitlin before madness and death
Mel: probably the spirit of a long dead slave girl whose radical crusade is ultimately a very sad story of somebody totally misguided by belief. She has a good heart.
Davos: will ultimately turn against Stannis but for a righteous cause.
Drogo: His Spirit will be bound to Drogon so that Dany can finally tame him (and maybe resist the Dragon Horns power)
Visarys: his love of gold and the irony of being the begger prince makes me think he might have actually been Tywin's bastard,
Rhealla: mounted once for blood and once for gold and once for love Aerys, Tywin, Arthur

[LordStoneheart]

Sansa: The "bound to double cross LF and kill him plot" is the most obvious thing ever (I mean, everybody here is already so sure it will happen... and you guys aren't really the most inventive story tellers, you still assume that Martin is going for so many old tropes. She'll be a cunning player of the game, but not at the expense of LF, rather, to his credit.

Here's a pretty controversial opinion: Martin is definitely going for so many old tropes. He's playing some of them straight up to the point where many might call him a typical writer. He tweaks enough of them to get some praise for it, but he's not the 100% original twist mastermind many hold him to be. And this is coming from someone who loved Feast and Dance, and his other stories and novels; he is not a master trope breaker. :P

[Orbulas B. Harding]

Here's a pretty controversial opinion: Martin is definitely going for so many old tropes. He's playing some of them straight up to the point where many might call him a typical writer. He tweaks enough of them to get some praise for it, but he's not the 100% original twist mastermind many hold him to be. And this is coming from someone who loved Feast and Dance, and his other stories and novels; he is not a master trope breaker. :P

He's a master story teller and Sansa turning the tables and sending the series most cunning strategist to an inglorious end as the moron that didn't see THAT coming... not only is it obvious but it's boring. It doesn't have any of the surprising character turns George is so fond of. I see her swayed towards Baelish's way of seeing things and becoming the ruthless agent of chaos or queen of her own.

I see LF giving his life to save Sansa as something far more likely

[LordStoneheart]

He's a master story teller and Sansa turning the tables and sending the series most cunning strategist to an inglorious end as the moron that didn't see THAT coming... not only is it obvious but it's boring. It doesn't have any of the surprising character turns George is so fond of. I see her swayed towards Baelish's way of seeing things and becoming the ruthless agent of chaos or queen of her own.

I see LF giving his life to save Sansa as something far more likely

I don't necessarily think Sansa will take him down either. I just think rejecting theories based on "it's too obvious" is very flawed. It's not like he's an unpredictable writer all the time. Sometimes he's very predictable.

[Colonel Green]

I see LF giving his life to save Sansa as something far more likely

That will never happen, because Littlefinger does not care about anyone other than himself.

As far as "predictability" goes, if you play fair with the audience, any story that builds naturally becomes at least somewhat predictable. GRRM doesn't have characters do hairpin turns, etc., so if people are predicting many of these things, it's because we have five books of material to assess where the characters are headed.

[INCBlackbird]

Ok I'll try to walk you through this as best I can.

Theon leads his men in a campaign to take Winterfell. The only way he can keep the castle is with his sister's support. When his sister denies him that support the game is over. Any idiot knows that staying in the Castle with no support means the death of his men. Yet he stays. His choice to keep his men at Winterfell at that point means he lead them to certain death. Lorren councils him to abandon the castle at that point and he says he won't give up his seat.

He selfishly stays there, the men under his command are his responsibility. Him giving them the option to bail at the last minute doesn't negate his responsibility. Their hope for holding the castle was gone long before his "line in the dirt" speech.

Theon was an idiot for not going with Asha sure but selfish? how is that selfish? can't Theon deside for himself what he wants? As he says in his speech, he won't force anyone to stay with him, he gives them a choice to leave. that's hardly keeping them there. unless we are speaking in some other language and in which keeping someone somewhere = giving them a choice to leave. how can you argue against the text like this?

[The Wolves]

The Lannisters are all evil they are not tragic or misunderstood they are a bunch of incestuous monsters.

Theon is a horrible person

The Hound is monstrous for killing Mycah and deserves a horrible death.

Ned is still the best character in ASOIAF

Robert should have died on the Trident he had no business on the throne and his family killing each other is just deserved.

Joffery deserved to choke to death he was evil just like his evil parents.

Viserys is the only character who has a justifiable excuse for the way they turned out he actually does have the tragic background and horrible hard life that can explain why he was the way he was. No one else in this series has the tragic backstory for why they turned into horrible, power hungry, murdering people.

Catelyn is the most sympathetic character

Lysa was a mad idiot

Brienne is useless

Renly did not deserve to be murdered especially by his brother or for a ugly chair

[INCBlackbird]

Frankly, yes.

Your first sentence in this quote is the difference between empathy and excuses IMO. Because you haven't excused Theon's actions, that's true enough. But how many bad actions does it take before you take them as saying something about a person's character? As I said before, there comes a point where the reasons behind don't matter; what matters is what you make of yourself.

But at this point, I'd rather read the back-and-forth than contribute to it further. You're clearly sold on Theon being a good man, and at the end of the day, he's a fictional character and you're more than welcome to see him how you wish. Theon is someone I enjoy myself, as an interesting and varied character, though I find him pathetically despicable before his fall and pitiable afterwards. Enjoy him and the story your way, and I'll enjoy it in mine.

I simply don’t like to judge people when I am not sure I’d have done any better than them. I don’t like to call people bad people because they’ve made a mistake, lots of people would have made. I hate it when people judge others all the time, usually there’s circumstances, a past… that all has to be taken into account. There’s also the fact that you often hear the story from just one side. In fact when my mom or any of my friends is telling me about someone telling them about someone else doing something to them, I always go “well, you’ve only heard it from one side, got to take that into account” I try to not judge anyone until I know the full situation, except when they’re an actual psychopath and kill/torture people for fun but that’s another story. Same thing with people in prison, I abhor the fact that so many people judge people because they’ve gone to prison. Most of them got there because of the way they grew up or a stupid mistake that lead to more stupid mistakes. That doesn’t make them bad people (not innocent though, that’s a different thing, I don’t think Theon is innocent either, just not a bad person) and imagine that you get out of prison, already thoroughly humiliated and ashamed for what got you there in the first place, than you get out into the world and everyone judges you, you don’t get a job because people think that when you’ve done one thing wrong you’re completely bad… that’s horrible! so there's not a lot of characters I DO call a bad person in these books only ones I can think off are Ramsay, Cersei, Roose and the Mountain at the moment. I'm sure there's more but not gonna go through a character list right now, you get the idea.

what makes a bad person to me is not how many bad actions it's about the intent, the circemstances, the past of said character, and mostly how they feel about said actions. to give a simplistic example

person x has had a troubled past, ends up from one bad situation into the other through making stupid mistakes caused by issues because of said troubled past and it all gets worse, eventually they end up killing someone in a fit of rage and they are overcome with guilt.

person Y has had some hardships in their life but they don't really care what people think. or what is right/wrong. in fact, they lack empathy and hurt people for fun, and they do not feel any guilt over it no matter the consequences to those people they hurt.

I consider person X a good person and person Y a bad person, even though the act of hurting someone is way less severe than the act of killing someone. do I have the right to make these moral distictions?

[TallTyrion]

Theon was an idiot for not going with Asha sure but selfish? how is that selfish? can't Theon deside for himself what he wants? As he says in his speech, he won't force anyone to stay with him, he gives them a choice to leave. that's hardly keeping them there. unless we are speaking in some other language and in which keeping someone somewhere = giving them a choice to leave. how can you argue against the text like this?

I'm not going to explain this any further since you've decided not to understand. Just read my earlier post again until the idea of responsibility sinks in, you seem not to be able to grasp it. Theon knowingly lead those men to their deaths, he's responsible for that.

I simply don’t like to judge people when I am not sure I’d have done any better than them. I don’t like to call people bad people because they’ve made a mistake, lots of people would have made. I hate it when people judge others all the time, usually there’s circumstances, a past… that all has to be taken into account. There’s also the fact that you often hear the story from just one side. In fact when my mom or any of my friends is telling me about someone telling them about someone else doing something to them, I always go “well, you’ve only heard it from one side, got to take that into account” I try to not judge anyone until I know the full situation

Here's the problem, we know the full situation and the guilty party's back story so it's perfectly acceptable to make a judgement in this instance. We have Theon's side that's the only one we need. And guess what? Nothing in his upbringing or motivations excuses what he did.

I try to not judge anyone until I know the full situation, except when they’re an actual psychopath and kill/torture people for fun but that’s another story.

So you're only a bad person if you get a kick out of it?...got it. And once again we have the full situation so what's stopping us from judging Theon?

Most of them got there because of the way they grew up or a stupid mistake that lead to more stupid mistakes. That doesn’t make them bad people (not innocent though, that’s a different thing, I don’t think Theon is innocent either, just not a bad person) and imagine that you get out of prison, already thoroughly humiliated and ashamed for what got you there in the first place, than you get out into the world and everyone judges you, you don’t get a job because people think that when you’ve done one thing wrong you’re completely bad… that’s horrible!

A lot of them also got their by spending their lives being scum bags and screwing other people over. You can make all the excuses you want about how people grew up and the mistakes they made but at the end of the day they're responsible for their own actions. You don't get to brush off your moral culpability because you had a tough childhood or you "just made a mistake."

what makes a bad person to me is not how many bad actions it's about the intent, the circemstances, the past of said character, and mostly how they feel about said actions. to give a simplistic example

Are you joking? That's seriously how you judge the morality of actions? What makes someone bad isn't how they feel about the shitty things they do. It's how those actions effect others -- you know like the two kids who don't get to live anymore because of Theon's actions?

Sorry but if your moral criteria doesn't take into account the effects on others then I can't take it seriously

person x has had a troubled past, ends up from one bad situation into the other through making stupid mistakes caused by issues because of said troubled past and it all gets worse, eventually they end up killing someone in a fit of rage and they are overcome with guilt.

person Y has had some hardships in their life but they don't really care what people think. or what is right/wrong. in fact, they lack empathy and hurt people for fun, and they do not feel any guilt over it no matter the consequences to those people they hurt.

I consider person X a good person and person Y a bad person, even though the act of hurting someone is way less severe than the act of killing someone. do I have the right to make these moral distictions?

No they're both bad people. You know why? Because person x having a tough time in life doesn't alleviate them of responsibility. Neither does feeling bad about it.

Person Y is a worse person since they're a sadistic sociopath. But they're both bad people because they're you know...murderers!

[INCBlackbird]

exactly, it seems like I have proven you wrong but you can't take it so at first you tried to focus on something else when that didn't take you started to derail the argument some other way. saying that Theon brougth them to Winterfell and in bringing them there he is responsible for their lives. but this wasn't the Original argument either. what you said was that Theon is KEEPING his men in Winterfell, which is not because there is textual evidence that gave them a choice to leave (and some did leave). so stop avoiding the argument. you made a statement, you were wrong, be a grown up and admit when you make a mistake.

it's become very apparent that you do not understand Theon's character or the effects his childhood had on his life, or what his motivations or intension are so nope, it's not for you to Judge him.

please read a psychology book.

I am not joking. I actually spent time thinking about these things rather than have a simplistic black and white outlook on the matter. but apparently I am not allowed to have an opinion? everyone should look at it the same way as you because your opinion is the only one that counts? got it.

so let me get this straight, a person is a bad person if their actions have a negative effect on others? kinda like you frustrating me right now.

person Y wasn't a murderer in my example, more proof that you're not even reading what I'm saying.

[TallTyrion]

exactly, it seems like I have proven you wrong but you can't take it so at first you tried to focus on something else when that didn't take you started to derail the argument some other way. saying that Theon brougth them to Winterfell and in bringing them there he is responsible for their lives. but this wasn't the Original argument either. what you said was that Theon is KEEPING his men in Winterfell, which is not because there is textual evidence that gave them a choice to leave (and some did leave). so stop avoiding the argument. you made a statement, you were wrong, be a grown up and admit when you make a mistake.

it's become very apparent that you do not understand Theon's character or the effects his childhood had on his life, or what his motivations or intension are so nope, it's not for you to Judge him.

please read a psychology book.

I am not joking. I actually spent time thinking about these things rather than have a simplistic black and white outlook on the matter. but apparently I am not allowed to have an opinion? everyone should look at it the same way as you because your opinion is the only one that counts? got it.

so let me get this straight, a person is a bad person if their actions have a negative effect on others? kinda like you frustrating me right now.

No sorry but it's clear to everyone that all you are focusing on is me using the word "keeping" instead of actually trying to support your positions.

And besides Theon "keeping" them there or not is completely irrelevant to the larger discussion about Theon and his murder of the kids.

If you think "read a psychology book" constitutes an argument then my advice to you would be to look up what an argument is.

I understand perfectly why Theon did what he did, and how his upbringing contributed to that. The difference is I'm not willing to use that as an excuse to whitewash his actions. To claim he's still a "a good person" when he's orchestrating the murder of children and his own men is unsupportable. And I have every right to judge him for it.

so let me get this straight, a person is a bad person if their actions have a negative effect on others? kinda like you frustrating me right now.

No I said when judging if someone is a good person, not including how their actions effect others is ridiculous.

person Y wasn't a murderer in my example, more proof that you're not even reading what I'm saying.

OK fine got me there I misread your hypothetical. However that has no bearing on the relevance of this response:

No they're both bad people. You know why? Because person x having a tough time in life doesn't alleviate them of responsibility. Neither does feeling bad about it.

Which is actually the crux of the argument.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

exactly, it seems like I have proven you wrong but you can't take it so at first you tried to focus on something else when that didn't take you started to derail the argument some other way. saying that Theon brougth them to Winterfell and in bringing them there he is responsible for their lives. but this wasn't the Original argument either. what you said was that Theon is KEEPING his men in Winterfell, which is not because there is textual evidence that gave them a choice to leave (and some did leave). so stop avoiding the argument. you made a statement, you were wrong, be a grown up and admit when you make a mistake.

it's become very apparent that you do not understand Theon's character or the effects his childhood had on his life, or what his motivations or intension are so nope, it's not for you to Judge him.

please read a psychology book.

I am not joking. I actually spent time thinking about these things rather than have a simplistic black and white outlook on the matter. but apparently I am not allowed to have an opinion? everyone should look at it the same way as you because your opinion is the only one that counts? got it.

so let me get this straight, a person is a bad person if their actions have a negative effect on others? kinda like you frustrating me right now.

person Y wasn't a murderer in my example, more proof that you're not even reading what I'm saying.

1st highlighted statement childish

2nd highlighted statement .If you take the first as childish, is hypocritical

3rd + 4th highlighted statement infer the op understands Theon and others opinions don`t count. Using sarcasm to get the point over. Is that a defence mechanism? Don`t spend too long in Theon`s head

[Dragon in the North]

it's become very apparent that you do not understand Theon's character or the effects his childhood had on his life, or what his motivations or intension are so nope, it's not for you to Judge him.

I understand Theon's character perfectly well. You even helped me reach an understanding of Theon that I haven't had before. I get that his childhood was rough and how he was torn between Stark and Greyjoy, and couldn't choose. He may even possess one of those personality disorders you've mentioned. But in judging whether Theon is a good person, all we need to do is ask ourselves one question: Did Theon have the right to kill two children in order to retain the respect of his men? For me, the answer is no.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Oh God I must be an idiot for getting into this.

Sansa: Just as self-reliant and intelligent as Arya, just in a different way.

Stannis: Is delusional if he thinks the northerners won't turn on him when they get the chance.

Tyrion: Is a whiny, self-pitying git who uses his dwarfism as an excuse to not self-reflect and wonder if there are any other reasons why people don't like him. Oh and I think his humor is overly defensive and I find Jaime funnier.

Jaime: Will always be the guy who pushed a child off a tower, no matter what else he does.

Dany: Is still responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, not all of whom were evil slavers, and still cannot govern her way through a middle-school student council meeting.

Theon: Absolutely does not deserve what happened to him but is still a murderer.

Varys: Just as personally motivated as Littlefinger; too many gullible people take "for the good of the realm" at face value.

Tommen: Would actually make a decent king, pity.

Catelyn: Was a good mother who had no responsibility to raise and mother Jon.

Jon: GRRM is not going to subvert every damn trope for the sake of subversion. Deal with it.

Renly: Got what was coming to him.

:leaving:

:bowdown:

[Maid So Fair]

see my reply to talltyrion on this matter. plus, i'd like to ask, if characters like Robb, Jon, Sansa, Catelyn, Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Sandor, Arianne, Doran, Stannis, Margaery and so on were in the same situation as Theon (with which I mean either losing everything they cared about vs killing two children) which of these characters do you think would have chosen to do the right thing?

to answer your question: Robb, Stannis, Daenerys, Robert. I'm sure there more I'm not thinking of right now. (and god, I already know the argument that's gonna come from this you "they didn't kill children" me "they didn't kill children themselves but they started a war and are therefor responsible for the children that died in said war, just like Theon is responsible for the children he sacrificed in his "war"" you: "it's not the same" me: "not exactly, but yet both are responsible for the death of children just because Theon made a direct choice doesn't make it any different, except that he felt guilty about it. as if the aforementioned didn't know children were going to die in their war" you: "that's ridiculous" sounds about right?)

It's a flawed comparison from the very beginning as what these characters care most about is completely divorced from what Theon cares most about. You're introducing extremely subjective criteria from the very start. Not all goals are created equal. Just because I want something (even if I want it really really badly) doesn't give me any right to obtain it through means that harm other people because my desires don't supersede their desires. For example, just there's nothing I want more than that georgeous Porsche doesn't mean that I can murder the owner and take the keys. Or if I'm having an affair with a married man who I adore and what I care about the most is being together doesn't mean I get to murder his wife. In fact, one of the characters you mention, Stannis, wants nothing more than the IT and is in a pretty hopeless position, yet he doesn't burn Edric (at least not immediately and maybe never).

So a better question is whether these characters would kill children rather than lose face in front of their men. Again, we have examples of two characters doing just that - Robb executes Karstark for just that even though it means losing a bunch of his army, and Dany opts not to kill her child hostages even though she realises it makes her look weak. Stannis most definitely would not do something unlawful just because it might lose him respect either. In fact, out of the characters you named it's very hard for me to pick a person that would do as Theon does.

one can be tolerant and nice and still chose your own wellbeing over someone else'

That depends on the severity of the actions and the threat to your wellbeing. You can be a nice person and seriously harm/kill someone if they're threatening your life, say. You can't be a nice person and kill someone to escape a minor discomfort.

sure, not everybody does, i've met a few who don't and I was totally fine with them disliking Theon. it's just when I see ridiculous things like "his sadistic streak" or "he betrayed the starks" or people who clearly misunderstand him and refuse to even try that I get annoyed. and there are lots of them out there. i've been a fan of this guy for I think two and a half years now and I've seen it all trust me, and not just once, hundreds of times.

The impression I get is that you believe it's impossible for someone to fully understand Theon and still think he's a bad person/pass judgement on him. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I still think there's some classisism going on, there's rather a lot of classisism in these books, it's a big part of the world we're reading about which is filled with immoral things (which is partly what makes it so interesting to me)

Classism (is this a word?) has nothing to do with Theon's actions except for the fact that he himself acts this way towards his social inferiors.

I'm not gonna have this argument again (I think last time was like two days ago...) just read this and than get back to me if you don't agree : http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/93794692315/dissecting-theons-a-dance-with-dragons-arc-theon

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from that link? I think it's a combination of having more freedom, not being flayed anymore, beign at Winterfell, and, yes, quite possibly seeing Jeyne that helps him regain his identity. I never denied he wanted to help her. But the escape plan is still Mance's idea and execution up to the last moment when Theon jumps off the wall with her.

ok let's try this again shall we. separate this from the current situation, it doesn't matter because i'm not talking about this situation in particular I'm not talking about ANY situation i'm talking about Ned's PRINCIPLES. and there is the conversation between littlefinger and Ned that I am merely using as an example for this:

"Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.” this suggests that if he doesn't put stannis on the throne the realm won't bleed. correct? otherwise the statement is rather redundent. as a reader we know it will either way but that's not what I'm argueing here and it never was. Ned doesn't say that "the realm will bleed regardless" this is what he says : “It is not a choice. Stannis is the heir.”. AKA Ned finds placing the rightful king on the throne more important than the thousandths of innocent lives it would cost him to do so. I as a person, do not agree with this morality. is that strange?

But you can't take a very specific scenario that is a culmination of all the events in the book and not expect people to argue using just as specific information pertaining to that scenario in their arguments. That conversation didn't just come out of nowhere and considering it in isolation means completely ignoring the entire context. It's also silly to believe that the character's decisions and opinions in that conversation are not at all informed by their experiences and relationships up to that point. You can't possibly believe that all Ned knew at that point about Joffrey, Cersei, the Lannisters, Tywin, Stannis, Renly and the politics in KL etc never factored into his decision making. And you're taking LF's words at face value as if he was an unbiased observer when we know he's very much biased since he's got everything to win if he succeeds in his ploy and everything to lose if he doesn't.

But sure, let's ignore all that and just pretend we don't know anything about the other players. There's no rule that proclaiming the rightful king automatically means war. If we take the hypothetical scenario in which it does, we don't know what Ned would do since we never saw him in that position and there are plenty of variables that could and would influence his decision is such a case. He's a stickler for the rules but we know he's also perfectly willing to break them when more important things are at stake. So basically your criticism of Ned is based on what you ASSUME he would do in a hypothetical situation and your assumption is based on what he says in a completely different scenario. Give the guy a break.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Almost none of the characters or at least controversial characters are as some of their loudest fans who you would see arguing in threads in their favor think they are. Some of these fans even take part in reread threads which makes it doubly disappointing. You would expect them to learn things, not double down and use that knowledge in support of their biased viewpoints.

[INCBlackbird]

I understand Theon's character perfectly well. You even helped me reach an understanding of Theon that I haven't had before. I get that his childhood was rough and how he was torn between Stark and Greyjoy, and couldn't choose. He may even possess one of those personality disorders you've mentioned. But in judging whether Theon is a good person, all we need to do is ask ourselves one question: Did Theon have the right to kill two children in order to retain the respect of his men? For me, the answer is no.

this comment wasn't directed at you. of course some people do understand him, others don't, I don't know to which cathegory you belong so I do not judge you on that.

simply put I don't think that is the only question we should ask ourselves I think it's more complicated than that. and I have explained several times why. there is no right or wrong here there, there are no facts there are only opinions and we have a different one, which is fine.

[INCBlackbird]

No sorry but it's clear to everyone that all you are focusing on is me using the word "keeping" instead of actually trying to support your positions.

And besides Theon "keeping" them there or not is completely irrelevant to the larger discussion about Theon and his murder of the kids.

If you think "read a psychology book" constitutes an argument then my advice to you would be to look up what an argument is.

I understand perfectly why Theon did what he did, and how his upbringing contributed to that. The difference is I'm not willing to use that as an excuse to whitewash his actions. To claim he's still a "a good person" when he's orchestrating the murder of children and his own men is unsupportable. And I have every right to judge him for it.

No I said when judging if someone is a good person, not including how their actions effect others is ridiculous.

OK fine got me there I misread your hypothetical. However that has no bearing on the relevance of this response:

Which is actually the crux of the argument.

Ok this is getting nowhere, so let’s quickly review the situation:

I gave my personal opinions on Theon and Ned Stark, and I explained thoroughly why I think about them that way. Why I think Ned’s principles are flawed, how I judge whether I label a person a good or a bad person. All of that is my opinion. And you can all disagree with it, but you can’t argue against it. It’s no use because it’s a personal opinion not a fact. You can try and persuade me to see it your way and I can try and persuade you to see it my way but that is not what is happening here, and it seems like both parties are pretty frustrated at this point.

My sole intent was to explain my stances on these matters, explain my way of thinking and hope that people will understand it, I don’t require anyone to agree with me on it though. But you can understand something with disagreeing with it.

I understand that most people don’t judge people the way I do, that most people will look at a person’s actions rather than their intensions/the way they feel about those actions. I simply have different principles on that and you are not required to share my principles. Equally I am not required to share yours.