Darkostar Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 when you put it that way...it really makes her sound bad. So can she gain redemption? What if she protects the brat and sees him grown and to his Lordship as an adult? We know LF's plans involve little Robert being out of the way. Bad's the wrong word to use. After all, she was raised into naivete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Possibly if she attempts to restore her house to it former glory and devotes her life to helping others. She owes alot to the peasents of Westeros. If she helps the brat is will go a long way, she needs to learn to put others ahead of herself. But is she capable of placing others first? Even when she's helping little Robert, she thinks of herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkostar Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 But is she capable of placing others first? Even when she's helping little Robert, she thinks of herself Much like Cersei, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Yes this is true she put her Fantasies above her Family. She threw away her father and potentially her sister and her best friend for her Fantasy. True, but Sansa did not understand that she was throwing away her father, sister and best friend, (not to mention her Septa and all her household). If Sansa had understood the consequenses she never would have take those actions. She was twelve. Twelve year-olds make mistakes- and I'm not going to place the blame on Sansa. Ned put it best, when Arya wanted to blame Sansa (understandably because Sansa lied), Ned told Arya that she should not blame her sister who had merely shown weakness of character, but rather the blame should be placed on Queen Cersei (and Jamie)- Cersei was the one who was cruel and bloodthirsty. Cersei was the one who ordered the deaths of the Stark houshold- Cersei was the one who commited treason, incest, and adultry (three capital crimes with one act!), and Littlefinger was the one who had Ned killed. Those are the people who should be bear the blame. Not a lovesick twelve yearold girl who disobeys her father with out any understanding that this will place the lives of her family and friends into the power of their enemies. Sansa didn't even understand that the Lannisters were enemies. (Maybe Ned should explained things a little better to her, but I understand why he didn't. Sansa should have obeyed her father even if he didn't explain.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 But is she capable of placing others first? Even when she's helping little Robert, she thinks of herself I don't know she is such a self serving little high born girl. It will take a true shift for her too change but she is still young enough that she might be able to manage it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkostar Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I don't know she is such a self serving little high born girl. It will take a true shift for her too change but she is still young enough that she might be able to manage it. I don't think so. I think she's going to get progressively darker and more self centered, which could either ruin LF or play into his fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronzolo Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 As to the "most good" character in the books. I would have to say that according to the classical definition of "good", Stannis comes close, because justice is usually considered the foundational element of goodness. (Can anyone imagine describing an unjust man as "good?) However, the classical secondary element of goodness is mercy. This suggests that Ned (and maybe Jon) are the closest to finding the proper balance between justice and mercy that is "good". According to my own personal definitions of "good" I would probaly rank Ned the highest. Where does Ser Davos fit in the scale of 'good and evil'? The worst thing he's done, that I can think of, is take Melisandre to Storm's End under cover of darkness, and at the time he had no idea what was going to happen, and expressed his disgust and dislike of the tactic at the earliest opportunity. Davos has consistently ignored his *own* interests to try and protect his family, and influence his sworn lord. In fact, he's made significant sacrifices in pursuing an agenda of 'doing the right thing', willingly putting himself in harms way to try and save innocent lives and persuade Stannis into doing the 'right thing'. Without Ser Davos, Stannis sense of Justice through the series would have come across as selfish because it has been seduced by Mel . . . . as Stannis noted. I just thought it was odd that we hear about Brienne, and even Stannis but the Onion Kinght gets no kudos for sticking to his beliefs. Edited for spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 True, but Sansa did not understand that she was throwing away her father, sister and best friend, (not to mention her Septa and all her household). If Sansa had understood the consequenses she never would have take those actions. She was twelve. Twelve year-olds make mistakes- and I'm not going to place the blame on Sansa. Ned put it best, when Arya wanted to blame Sansa (understandably because Sansa lied), Ned told Arya that she should not blame her sister who had merely shown weakness of character, but rather the blame should be placed on Queen Cersei (and Jamie)- Cersei was the one who was cruel and bloodthirsty. Cersei was the one who ordered the deaths of the Stark houshold- Cersei was the one who commited treason, incest, and adultry (three capital crimes with one act!), and Littlefinger was the one who had Ned killed. Those are the people who should be bear the blame. Not a lovesick twelve yearold girl who disobeys her father with out any understanding that this will place the lives of her family and friends into the power of their enemies. Sansa didn't even understand that the Lannisters were enemies. (Maybe Ned should explained things a little better to her, but I understand why he didn't. Sansa should have obeyed her father even if he didn't explain.) So what is the start of being bad for a child? Disobediance. Not that she didn't have a good start in that direction already...her father told her to tell the truth, she disobeyed and lied and it cost her lady and resulted in Micha's death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Where does Ser Davos fit in the scale of 'good and evil'? The worst thing he's done, that I can think of, is take Melisandre to Storm's End under cover of darkness, and at the time he had no idea what was going to happen. Davos has consistently ignored his *own* interests to try and protect his family, and influence his sworn lord. In fact, he's made significant sacrifices in pursuing and agenda of 'doing the right thing', willingly putting himself in harms way to try and save innocent lives and persuade Stannis into doing the 'right thing'. Without Ser Davos, Stannis sense of Justice through the series would have come across as selfish because it has been seduced by Mel . . . . as Stannis noted. I just thought it was odd that we hear about Brienne, and even Stannis but the Onion Kinght gets no kudos for sticking to his beliefs. Davos is kick ass to the max! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Davos is kick ass to the max! can we stay on topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 can we stay on topic? Davos is one of my favorite characters, even though he is the onion knights and I hate onions. I mean really your breaking the siege and you bring onions. the most foul vegtable known to man. How about some carrots or some green beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghosts Companion Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 So why would anyone like sansa more than arya. Sansa is selfish and will not stand up for what is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Davos is one of my favorite characters, even though he is the onion knights and I hate onions. I mean really your breaking the siege and you bring onions. the most foul vegtable known to man. How about some carrots or some green beans. again, he's another example of a good grey character...as in does what is good, but still outside the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkostar Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 can we stay on topic? In a situation like this? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 So why would anyone like sansa more than arya. Sansa is selfish and will not stand up for what is right. Why would anyone like onions over carrots. Who knows the world is full of mysteries.- can we stay on topic? Stay on target. Stay on Target. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 So why would anyone like sansa more than arya. Sansa is selfish and will not stand up for what is right. I think Sansa has lived in such a fantasy world that she doesn't know what is right sometimes. She lacks moral clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I think Sansa has lived in such a fantasy world that she doesn't know what is right sometimes. She lacks moral clarity I think that Sansa lives for her own fantasies and can't because she can't handle the real world. She is weak end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 In a situation like this? I doubt it. no kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghosts Companion Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Well she has personal ethics of what is righ and wrong but not what is right in wrong in honor and society terms. The term Blood is thicker than water means nothing to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I want these Mother Fuckin Onions off this Mother Fuckin Ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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