Could Littlefinger be the son of...(book spoilers)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You are right, they were kings. I was thinking that b/c Lann tricked the Casterlys out of the Rock they weren't real kings. But you are right, they did become kings.

It was still a big step up to aim for the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, though. And Aerys seemed to take it poorly.

I still don't think Tyrion is grasping. Cercei, Tywin, and Lann all seem to want more, more, more. More than their "fair share." More than what they were born into. They try to take down the competition, and almost everyone is the competition. Where did the Casterlys go? Where did the Reynes go? Tyrion wanting the Rock, Tyrion wanting to travel like his uncles, Tyrion wanting parental acknowledgment - he is being excluded from things that arguably should have been his by birth. He gave Joffery a book, not a weapon encrusted with jewels. His values were different. Tyrion gets very upset with people, but he doesn't send them to Qyburn to get them out of the way. He doesn't exterminate whole families. He doesn't murder babies to curry favor. Killing Shae and Tywin was a crime of passion, not a cold political move.

Just because Petyr mocks lords, I don't see that disproving my theory. Cercei, Jaime, Tyrion -when you get inside their heads, they are all very cynical, critical, and mocking.

I think it natural that Tywin and his siblings would resent their widowed father's new love interest. Tytos seemed prone to manipulation even before he was an old widower. I think they feared embarrassment, but I think they also feared losing part of their inheritance to Candy and any children she might have-legitimate or otherwise. Tytos seems like the sort of Lord who could be persuaded into marrying a beautiful, lowborn woman in his old age.

But why shouldn't a widower seek his own happiness? Why is Candy worse than any noblewoman given as a political bargaining pawn? Why shouldn't Tyrion marry Tysha? I don't really expect Tywin to like these matches, but it is own financial self interest, social status, and snobby political system he is fighting for - not some noble cause.

I agree there were political reasons for marrying Tyrion to Sansa, but one of those political considerations was preventing Littlefinger from getting too high. A marriage to Tyrion Lannister provoked the North, and it caused Robb to put something in writing naming another heir. Not that his document has been revealed, yet. But, yes, Tywin was grasping for the North, too. Notice the degree to which Tyrion was the opposite of grasping in his relationship to Sansa.

I still beleive Littlefinger is like the Lannisters and Lann the Clever. I don't think my theory diminishes him. He is either a secret bastard who was hidden "nowhere" in the Fingers, or a secret legit child of an embarrassing late-in-life marriage to a lowborn woman who hid herself in the middle of nowhere in the Fingers. He still needs to climb a very long way to get where he is.

Aerys didn't take it poorly. He just used it as an opportunity to shoot Tywin down.

We don't know where the Casterlys ended up but Tywin killed all the Reynes by sealing them into their own goldmines and then flooding the mines.

Agreed about Tyrion to a point, but you have to keep in mind that in the culture he belongs to all of the things that should have been his "by rights" are considered things he has no right to just because he's a misshapen dwarf (and a demon monkey). We see these as things he should have had, but that doesn't mean anyone in Westeros does. And I still say he's grasping, because heck he's a Lannister. They're all grasping. He's just grasping in a different, more subtle way. He was fine being a rich boy with no responsibilities at first, but once he got a taste of power he wanted to stay in power.

No, Petyr mocking does not disprove your theory. But it does rather explain the mockingbird as his sigil, as do other facts about the mockingbird, such as taking down larger birds when threatened. Petyr does that all the time. People underestimate the little mockingbird, and then are surprised when he takes them down.

Yes it's natural to resent the new love interest, but as far as we know Tywin is the only one who did. And I doubt inheritance was an issue. Candy had been with Tytos long enough that if he was going to marry her he would have done so before he died. Any illegitimate children would have no claim legally. Bastards have no rights. I could see Tywin maybe being worried about having to grudgingly support a known half-sibling though. And the stain on the family name. He probably wasn't too thrilled about Gerion's bastard daughter either.

In Tywin's mind? Candy is worse precisely because she was NOT a noblewoman. You know what a snob he is. Tysha had the same crime. She wasn't noble born and thus not good enough for a Lannister. I agree there was nothing noble about what Tywin was doing in these cases.

Tyrion doesn't grasp in the Sansa situation because he's not interested in gaining the North, or a wife who hates him. He still wants Casterly Rock, and to be named Tywin's heir. He has a great deal more empathy than Tywin does because of growing up as the monster of House Lannister. Part of Tywin's disgust with Tyrion is that he makes no attempt to gain anyone's respect, just like Tytos. Tytos' weakness led to mockery from the Reynes and the Tarbecks and Tywin couldn't stand being the son of such a weak man. Tytos didn't even have the decency to marry his mistress, but he let her parade around in Lady Lannister's jewels. I don't like Tywin at all, but I can see where he was coming from on that one at least.

I don't think your theory diminishes Littlefinger either. I just don't see what it adds to him in terms of the story and where it's headed. He could be the valonqar by virtue of Cat's thinking of him as a little brother. The valonqar may not have to be related to Cersei. If LF had any characteristics of the Lannisters I'd be more inclined to agree with your theory. Just one tiny thing. One hint in the text that ties him to the Lannisters. Just being a greedy, ambitious jerk does not mean he has to be someone other than who he's been presented to us as.

[SummerSphinx]

It's not about loving him. It's about not crossing him. And Hoster Tully had no problem with the idea of marrying his daughter Lysa to Tywin's precious Jaime so chances are there was a bit of respect there. Tywin was apparently ok with the match too, up until Jaime went and got Kingsguarded.

I will rephrase my point. First, I really don't think Hoster knew. My theory does not hinge on it. However, if Hoster Tully knew or suspected that Petyr was the child of Tytos' former lover, would he go racing to Tywin with the information? If he and Tywin were really good friends, perhaps he would. If he were terrified of Tywin, perhaps he would. But Hoster Tully seems to be independent enough of Tywin--even leery enough of Tywin- that he would either 1) file the secret away to be used if it ever suited his political agenda, or 2) let sleeping dogs lie.

Hoster knows what Tywin supposedly did to Aegon, Rhaenys, and the Reynes. He may not want to be complicit in the death of anot her child- unless absolutely necesarry. Having an ace up one's sleeve seems a prudent idea when dealing with Tywin.

Again, I think it more like Hoster did not know. If he did know, I don't think he had a good motive to run to Tywin.

[SummerSphinx]

I am sorry, I made a mistake. He would know about Reynes and Tarbecks. Aegon and Rhaenys hadn't been killed, yet. Sorry.

[SummerSphinx]

Maybe the pinky finger is called the little brother in Valyrian

[SummerSphinx]

I missed this earlier...

Aerys didn't take it poorly. He just used it as an opportunity to shoot Tywin down.

We don't know where the Casterlys ended up but Tywin killed all the Reynes by sealing them into their own goldmines and then flooding the mines.

Agreed about Tyrion to a point, but you have to keep in mind that in the culture he belongs to all of the things that should have been his "by rights" are considered things he has no right to just because he's a misshapen dwarf (and a demon monkey). We see these as things he should have had, but that doesn't mean anyone in Westeros does. And I still say he's grasping, because heck he's a Lannister. They're all grasping. He's just grasping in a different, more subtle way. He was fine being a rich boy with no responsibilities at first, but once he got a taste of power he wanted to stay in power.

No, Petyr mocking does not disprove your theory. But it does rather explain the mockingbird as his sigil, as do other facts about the mockingbird, such as taking down larger birds when threatened. Petyr does that all the time. People underestimate the little mockingbird, and then are surprised when he takes them down.

Yes it's natural to resent the new love interest, but as far as we know Tywin is the only one who did. And I doubt inheritance was an issue. Candy had been with Tytos long enough that if he was going to marry her he would have done so before he died. Any illegitimate children would have no claim legally. Bastards have no rights. I could see Tywin maybe being worried about having to grudgingly support a known half-sibling though. And the stain on the family name. He probably wasn't too thrilled about Gerion's bastard daughter either.

In Tywin's mind? Candy is worse precisely because she was NOT a noblewoman. You know what a snob he is. Tysha had the same crime. She wasn't noble born and thus not good enough for a Lannister. I agree there was nothing noble about what Tywin was doing in these cases.

Tyrion doesn't grasp in the Sansa situation because he's not interested in gaining the North, or a wife who hates him. He still wants Casterly Rock, and to be named Tywin's heir. He has a great deal more empathy than Tywin does because of growing up as the monster of House Lannister. Part of Tywin's disgust with Tyrion is that he makes no attempt to gain anyone's respect, just like Tytos. Tytos' weakness led to mockery from the Reynes and the Tarbecks and Tywin couldn't stand being the son of such a weak man. Tytos didn't even have the decency to marry his mistress, but he let her parade around in Lady Lannister's jewels. I don't like Tywin at all, but I can see where he was coming from on that one at least.

I don't think your theory diminishes Littlefinger either. I just don't see what it adds to him in terms of the story and where it's headed. He could be the valonqar by virtue of Cat's thinking of him as a little brother. The valonqar may not have to be related to Cersei. If LF had any characteristics of the Lannisters I'd be more inclined to agree with your theory. Just one tiny thing. One hint in the text that ties him to the Lannisters. Just being a greedy, ambitious jerk does not mean he has to be someone other than who he's been presented to us as.

I think Aerys and Tywin had gotten into a tense relationship, but Aerys specifically said something about not marrying your child to your servant. Aerys chose to phrase it in a way that basically stated that Tywin was overreaching his status. He specifically accused him of it.

My point about the Casterlys/Reynes (what happened to them?) was that both families completely disappeared after an encounter with a Lannister. We know Tywin was ruthless, but Lann didn't leave any surviving Casterlys. So far, Tyrion hasn't been attempting to drive any family lines extinct. Cercei and Littlefinger are far more hazardous.

I don't think your comment that Tytos "would have married her by now" is strongly supported. According to what? Especially if she suddenly got pregnant, or if she really was a gold digger and was waiting to get him vulnerable enough.

I think that because they are all Lannisters, you generally have to assume they do care about money and the inheritance. Kevan specifically mentioned that he was included in a generous inheritance from his father. As a younger son, that may have been unusual, (Tytos was kind and generous, and he may have left less to Tywin to provide for his other children.)

Kevan resented her, too. Cercei didn't remember it specifically, but she seemed to resent her based on what she'd heard.

I think you are not giving my list of Lannister characteristics fair credit. If GRRM had introduced Littlefinger as being golden haired and green eyed in book 1, it would have made lots of people think "Lannister!" Making him have grey-green eyes leaves open the possibility, but the dark hair throws us off the scent.

The entire series seems to be based on the notion that certain characteristics run in families. Not every member has all the characteristics, but certain characteristics are associated with certain houses. Cleverness, wit, a mocking personality, manipulation, skill managing money, wealth, and outwitting people seem to be very heavily associated with Lannisters (not Tullys, Starks, or Baratheons).

As for a specific line in the text. GRRM could have told us on the first page who Jon's parents are, but it is more interesting the way he is doing it. :) If my crackpot theory is true, it isn't something he wants revealed, yet.

I think Littlefinger has set in motion massive events that make him significant enough to be the Volanqar. If he were Tywin's little brother, or if Candy was gang raped by Tywin and others, and Littlefinger is Cercei's little brother, it fits better than "somebody's little brother somewhere." And she is clueless.

[SummerSphinx]

A bit of a problem with having everybody related to another is that it shrinks the story so much. It fits with the spirit of the series that there are some "nobodies" out there, or people with unclear - and irrelevant - backgrounds. When Character X is revealed to be the lost half-brother of Character Y, and Character W turns out to be Character Z in disguise, it feels like the story goes from having a grand, continent-spanning setting with intricate character relations, to being about a comparatively small group of people influencing everything that happens. Sort of like how Star Wars turned out to have all the hijinx of the story revolve around a small Jedi family and a handful of their friends and acquantances.

As for Baelish, I'm afraid I'll lean more towards the theory of ThePosterThatWasPromised, although I wouldn't rule out the "official" story either - that Baelish's father really did have no connection to anybody else in the series. That he, essentially, is an outsider who rose to greatness and became one of the key players of the Game. It's not that fun if all the players are born into the Game, you know?

I agree with you up to a point. Most of the characters do have "noble blood," and it is refreshing to have a talented nobody from Hicksville who climbed the ladder.

First off, people "without the right blood" can be very clever. I wasn't searching around for a way to make him "more noble" to explain his success.

What is unique about him is the very high stakes game he plays. He takes risks you would't expect a recently risen, self made man to make. If Lysa had blabbed too much, if Dontos had too many drinks... It isn't that he is clever, it's that he actually cares so much about bringing certain people down. He takes risks he doesn't have to, and brings down people in ways he doesn't have to. He enjoys it so much.

In the end, the time and effort he has put into planning strategic murders of very high level people makes it seem like there must be something personal going on.

Jon Arryn helped him get his first job, and he gets Lysa to help snuff him out. He wasn't a stranger. Lysa didn't like being married to him, but he seemed a decent enough guy.

He isn't murdering strangers.

Lysa was nutty, but she helped him and cared about him. They had grown up together as kids.

I think my theory gives a better explanation for his casual murdering, not for his cleverness.

Finally, I wasn't searching for Littlefinger's back story when I thought of this. I was thinking about what happened to Tysha. Did she live? If Tysha got pregnant, nobody would ever know who the dad was. Tyrion might be a dad. I was thinking, what would it be like to grow up as THAT child? What would you do if you found out what happened to your mom? What kind of person would you become? How would you cope. I think you could turn out like Littlefinger. The time line is wrong for Tysha, but it works perfectly for Tytos' mistress.

[Jana B.]

Hell no!

[falcotron]

Hell no!

Well, that's the kind of intelligent commentary it's worth necroing a 4-months-dead thread for.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Petyr is Bae

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

This makes no sense at all, this is just fanfic.

[TheDrunkenDornishman]

 
I really feel that you are over-thinking the word play in this instance.  Petyr's parallel to Bael the Bard (if there is one) is that he essentially stole Sansa out of King's Landing.  But he's no Bael the Bard. As someone said on another thread, he's only Bael-ish. ;)
 

Is this referring to a post of mine in the moments of foreshadowing thread? :p

[SevasTra82]

The main character in PB's plot line is Sansa.  He is used to show and build depth of the Tullys, to guide Sansa along, and be a catalyst for her main story arc.  

 

Unless I'm missing something, everything involving LF in ASOIAF has been directly connected to Sansa and the Tullys.

 

For this reason, I don't think there is any "secret connections" with LF, or major plot lines involving him.  He's simply a vessel in the books to help build up the "true" major plot line in ASOIAF, and that's Sansa Stark.

[Hoppy Hour]

A bit of a problem with having everybody related to another is that it shrinks the story so much. It fits with the spirit of the series that there are some "nobodies" out there, or people with unclear - and irrelevant - backgrounds. When Character X is revealed to be the lost half-brother of Character Y, and Character W turns out to be Character Z in disguise, it feels like the story goes from having a grand, continent-spanning setting with intricate character relations, to being about a comparatively small group of people influencing everything that happens. Sort of like how Star Wars turned out to have all the hijinx of the story revolve around a small Jedi family and a handful of their friends and acquantances.

 

:agree:

[King of the West]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2015 at 8:53 PM, SummerSphinx said:

I missed this earlier...

 

I think Aerys and Tywin had gotten into a tense relationship, but Aerys specifically said something about not marrying your child to your servant. Aerys chose to phrase it in a way that basically stated that Tywin was overreaching his status. He specifically accused him of it.

 

My point about the Casterlys/Reynes (what happened to them?) was that both families completely disappeared after an encounter with a Lannister. We know Tywin was ruthless, but Lann didn't leave any surviving Casterlys. So far, Tyrion hasn't been attempting to drive any family lines extinct. Cercei and Littlefinger are far more hazardous.

 

I don't think your comment that Tytos "would have married her by now" is strongly supported. According to what? Especially if she suddenly got pregnant, or if she really was a gold digger and was waiting to get him vulnerable enough.

 

I think that because they are all Lannisters, you generally have to assume they do care about money and the inheritance. Kevan specifically mentioned that he was included in a generous inheritance from his father. As a younger son, that may have been unusual, (Tytos was kind and generous, and he may have left less to Tywin to provide for his other children.)

 

Kevan resented her, too. Cercei didn't remember it specifically, but she seemed to resent her based on what she'd heard.

 

I think you are not giving my list of Lannister characteristics fair credit. If GRRM had introduced Littlefinger as being golden haired and green eyed in book 1, it would have made lots of people think "Lannister!" Making him have grey-green eyes leaves open the possibility, but the dark hair throws us off the scent.

 

The entire series seems to be based on the notion that certain characteristics run in families. Not every member has all the characteristics, but certain characteristics are associated with certain houses. Cleverness, wit, a mocking personality, manipulation, skill managing money, wealth, and outwitting people seem to be very heavily associated with Lannisters (not Tullys, Starks, or Baratheons).

 

As for a specific line in the text. GRRM could have told us on the first page who Jon's parents are, but it is more interesting the way he is doing it. If my crackpot theory is true, it isn't something he wants revealed, yet.

 

I think Littlefinger has set in motion massive events that make him significant enough to be the Volanqar. If he were Tywin's little brother, or if Candy was gang raped by Tywin and others, and Littlefinger is Cercei's little brother, it fits better than "somebody's little brother somewhere." And she is clueless.

Littlefinger would be older than Cersei. I truly have believed for awhile that he was a Reyne.