Half-truths, exaggerations, and lies: Jorah Mormont's assessment of the Dothraki

[Universal Sword Donor]

We don't know what arrows dothraki use, arrows could differ quite a bit among different types of composite bows. Mongol arrows seem to be qutie a bit bigger than turk or tartar ones, for example.

But in principle I think you are probably right. Some of the bigger longbows need very long, very heavy arrows, otherwise they simply break on release, you can't shoot a light arrow from the same bow.

You could in theory shoot the same heavy arrow from a composite bow if it's big enough, but that probably wouldn't be practical for a horse archer, their bows are small. Then again, IIRC dothraki are pretty big people as a race, maybe they use relatively big composite bows, compared to mongols and such.

I think BBE has broken this down before, but pretty much the only people the Dothraki currently fight are other Dothraki (unarmored) and Lhazarheen (also unarmored). That means that heavier arrows, possibly with something like a bodkin point, are unnecessary and really counterproductive since they don't do as much flesh damage and don't go as far, whereas a hunting arrow is going to do more damage and fly farther.

[hodorisfaclessman]

You realize that's a list right? As in:

1) Second Sons

2) Company Oberyn founded

3) 1/2 the windowblown yaddah yaddah

He didn't say second sons, the company oberyn founded, were westerosi or anything to indicate that he thought Oberyn founded them.

You realize that's a list right? As in:

1) Second Sons

2) Company Oberyn founded

3) 1/2 the windowblown yaddah yaddah

He didn't say second sons, the company oberyn founded, were westerosi or anything to indicate that he thought Oberyn founded them.

Ok then if we take it as a list then

Company oberyn founded : literaly nothing to assume this was all westerosi or that even another westerosi person was even in it bar its rich and talented founder

the windblown : founded by a pentoshi and 5 others all dead, nowhere does it say the other founding members are westerosi

2nd sons : few westerosi here (id count brown ben as essosi at this stage)

Overall id say the bulk of the free companies are natives but westerosi knights comming across for work or exile do very well due to their backgrounds

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

I think BBE has broken this down before, but pretty much the only people the Dothraki currently fight are other Dothraki (unarmored) and Lhazarheen (also unarmored). That means that heavier arrows, possibly with something like a bodkin point, are unnecessary and really counterproductive since they don't do as much flesh damage and don't go as far, whereas a hunting arrow is going to do more damage and fly farther.

It's the bow that determines the arrow size and weight. If the bow has certain draw power, you will use arrows of certain weight. Arrowheads might change, but arrow weight for a bow will remain more or less the same. You don't for example take a longbow and then choose heavy or light arrow. You choose a bow according to what you want to do. In real life hunters use smaller, lighter bows.

I wonder if dothraki recurve bow could change so much over a few hundreds years that their bows are now all useless for war. They did fight armored opponents in the past, they probably encounter them still time to time. They are a traditional society, I imagine they probably pass precise bow making traditions generation to generation and they don't change much. Even if they tend to use mainly wider arrowheads now, their bows are probably still more or less the same, and that's all that matters, arrowheads can be changed.

That said, dothraki constantly fighting wars against each other with long range, very precise bows and unarmored is extremely unrealistic, they should all be dead by now simply because they'd be awesome at killing each other. So it's hard to deduce anything about them at some point.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's the bow that determines the arrow size and weight. If the bow has certain draw power, you will use arrows of certain weight. Arrowheads might change, but arrow weight for a bow will remain more or less the same. You don't for example take a longbow and then choose heavy or light arrow. You choose a bow according to what you want to do. In real life hunters use smaller, lighter bows.

Partially. Size as in length yes, but the stiffness (and as such the diameter and total mass) can be varied a bit.

Furthermore, the Dothraki bows can't have the same draw weight as longbows, simply because somebody on foot can pull more weight than somebody using his legs to grip a saddle.

[hodorisfaclessman]

It's the bow that determines the arrow size and weight. If the bow has certain draw power, you will use arrows of certain weight. Arrowheads might change, but arrow weight for a bow will remain more or less the same. You don't for example take a longbow and then choose heavy or light arrow. You choose a bow according to what you want to do. In real life hunters use smaller, lighter bows.

I wonder if dothraki recurve bow could change so much over a few hundreds years that their bows are now all useless for war. They did fight armored opponents in the past, they probably encounter them still time to time. They are a traditional society, I imagine they probably pass precise bow making traditions generation to generation and they don't change much. Even if they tend to use mainly wider arrowheads now, their bows are probably still more or less the same, and that's all that matters, arrowheads can be changed.

That said, dothraki constantly fighting wars against each other with long range, very precise bows and unarmored is extremely unrealistic, they should all be dead by now simply because they'd be awesome at killing each other. So it's hard to deduce anything about them at some point.

Id say its unlikely they have altered it much since they fought steel and silk armoured sanori , ghiscari , ibbenese or valyrian outposts forces etc etc

Yeah the lack of armour makes no sense ...also the lack of lancers too, spears are one of the most common weapons used for a reason (ie simple and cheap to make) its odd there arent more of these instead of the intricately made arkhs esp given how useful they are for cavalry fighting

[Jak Scaletongue]

To all those talking about the late Romans you need to be corrected. First off marcus aurelias was not a commander he was a ruler who relied on military men. Secondly the Huns fought one of romes greatest generals; a guy called in history "the last of the Romans" and his name was flavius aetius. While he didn't really have the roman armies Caesar had or scipio because they had well trained Italians in their armies; flavius had a army completely of barbarians who were forced to enter the military or get kicked out of rome. This was one of the major reasons rome got taken over after atius was betrayed by his emperor. No other commanders had the respect of the barbarians.

Yeah, I was working from memory, and there's a lot of Roman Emperors - I got a little confused, so sue me! I did note that I knew they weren't good examples. And for a good chunk of Aetius' "reign" he was working *with* the Huns...okay, "with" might not be the best word, but he was definitely using them to help him gain to top spot - it wasn't until later that someone turned on someone and Aetius and the Huns became enemies. Then he kicked their ass. And not all the "barbarians" were forced into the army. Some joined quite on purpose - it's a few hundred years before Aetius, but Arminius was a German who joined the Roman army (during Augustus' reign) specifically to learn how to defeat them. He rose to become quite powerful within the army, and he went with Varus into now-Germany and led the entire army into a trap. Again, working off memory (cause I should be doing what they pay me to do, but :dunno:) I can't think of any other big example, but many a young child would have heard the story and wanted to be him (ala Bran and Old Nan's stories). To assume they *all* were forced to join is disregarding free will. Some were forced, some joined because they really wanted to *be* Roman, some joined because they wanted to take it down from the inside, some joined cause they had nothing better to do, some just wanted power and didn't care where it came from. Who knows. But, again, yes, not very many Roman commanders were able to impress or earn the respect of those fighting for them, and Aetius was one of the last.

Also FWIW, the same source that said Qohorik steel is better than anything in Westeros also says that “the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none." So there is clearly some wiggle room and/or some contradictory stuff. Tobho Mott might also take umbrage at your statement that only Qohorik can reforge Valyrian steel.

No. The whole quote just ends at 2nd to none. That's the *exact* same phrasing as Qohor's entry. And it really doesn't matter where Tobho Mott learned his skills. He's not in Qohor, so the statement that only Qohorik know how to reforge Valyrian steel is false.

It's not a false statement - an American living in Canada is still an American; a Qohorik in Westeros is still Qohorik. And since Westeros doesn't exactly have "citizenship" and "immigration policy" we're just going to ignore the availability of Citizenship for an American living in Canada (though Americans can live and work in Canada without needing to become citizens, and vice versa - there's rules of course, but it's kind of irrelevant since Tobho Mott certainly doesn't have any of those type of options while living in a feudal society, he's just a "foreigner.")

So, saying that "only Qohorik know how to reforge steel" is neither false, nor insulting to Tobho Mott. He's still Qohorik, he just lives in Westeros.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's not a false statement - an American living in Canada is still an American; a Qohorik in Westeros is still Qohorik. And since Westeros doesn't exactly have "citizenship" and "immigration policy" we're just going to ignore the availability of Citizenship for an American living in Canada (though Americans can live and work in Canada without needing to become citizens, and vice versa - there's rules of course, but it's kind of irrelevant since Tobho Mott certainly doesn't have any of those type of options while living in a feudal society, he's just a "foreigner.")

So, saying that "only Qohorik know how to reforge steel" is neither false, nor insulting to Tobho Mott. He's still Qohorik, he just lives in Westeros.

1) We don't know if Tobho Mott is westerosi or qohorik

2) He didn't say Qohorik (I did). He said "we are specificaly told the finest castle forged steel weapons in westeros arent as good as what qohor can produce and they alone can reforge Valyrian steel"

If Tobho Mott isn't in Qohor -- and he's not -- then clearly Qohor can clearly be matched in terms of quality and skill.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Partially. Size as in length yes, but the stiffness (and as such the diameter and total mass) can be varied a bit.

Furthermore, the Dothraki bows can't have the same draw weight as longbows, simply because somebody on foot can pull more weight than somebody using his legs to grip a saddle.

I don't think I understood your first sentence so I'm not sure if we are talking about the same things, but to give an example of what I was saying, if you put a light arrow from a 50 pound draw weight longbow into a 100 pound draw weight longbow, the arrow will most likely shatter. So the bow design determines the arrow.

I agree (at least I would guess) that a horse archer will use less strength to draw a bow, he can't put his whole body into it. On the other hand, a recurve bow also takes less strength to achieve the same result. A 50 pound recurve bow will shoot farther than the same weight longbow. Plus dothraki are supposed to be big people as a race, so maybe they use pretty big recurve bows and can pull a lot of weight, compared to average horse archers in real life. It's also less tiring to hold and aim after you draw with it. There are just lots of factors both ways.

By the way, don't dothraki have stirrups?

[Universal Sword Donor]

I don't think I understood your first sentence so I'm not sure if we are talking about the same things, but to give an example of what I was saying, if you put a light arrow from a 50 pound draw weight longbow into a 100 pound draw weight longbow, the arrow will most likely shatter. So the bow design determines the arrow.

I agree (at least I would guess) that a horse archer will use less strength to draw a bow, he can't put his whole body into it. On the other hand, a recurve bow also takes less strength to achieve the same result. A 50 pound recurve bow will shoot farther than the same weight longbow. Plus dothraki are supposed to be big people as a race, so maybe they use pretty big recurve bows and can pull a lot of weight, compared to average horse archers in real life. It's also less tiring to hold and aim after you draw with it. There are just lots of factors both ways.

By the way, don't dothraki have stirrups?

Yes. The horse than Drogo gives Dany has a Dothraki saddle and short stirrups. The horse that viserys is riding later has stirrups as well. We see the stirrups again when her "Khalasar" is in the dead city.

[TerrorVoid]

US Army Basic Training is 10 weeks plus whatever you get for your specialty. IIRC infantry tacks on another month.

Marines are 12.

So the soldiers sent to Iraq and Afghanistan (or hell anywhere) were untrained by your standards. And those were professional soldiers. Hell I'm pretty sure OCS is only 3 months. Not only are the grunts untrained, so are the men leading them!

In RF ppl train for year. This is just in case training, they do not participate in anything but total war. Then those people can enter professional army, where specialised training takes from 4 months to 3 years.

I can hardly compare it to US, since RF doesn't fight in offensive wars, but back in 20th century our military was considered pretty strong.

And we are speaking about Westeross military, not modern. Sword and bow are magnitude harder to handle.

By westerossian standart trained man had like 15 years of training prior to fighting in wars.

[Universal Sword Donor]

In RF ppl train for year. This is just in case training, they do not participate in anything but total war. Then those people can enter professional army, where specialised training takes from 4 months to 3 years.

I can hardly compare it to US, since RF doesn't fight in offensive wars, but back in 20th century our military was considered pretty strong.

And we are speaking about Westeross military, not modern. Sword and bow are magnitude harder to handle.

By westerossian standart trained man had like 15 years of training prior to fighting in wars.

There are a ton of specialties that take a while to train for in the US army. I was just giving the equivalent to what BBE was saying -- 3 months to basic competency with a pike.

Most of soldiers we see are infantrymen armed with a polearm or spear. We see them execute complex battle maneuvers under arrow fire. Those guys are trained. They couldn't move in unison, stand against charging cavalry, or hold under arrow fire were they not.

On an unrelated note: RF = Russian Federation?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't think I understood your first sentence so I'm not sure if we are talking about the same things, but to give an example of what I was saying, if you put a light arrow from a 50 pound draw weight longbow into a 100 pound draw weight longbow, the arrow will most likely shatter. So the bow design determines the arrow.

I agree (at least I would guess) that a horse archer will use less strength to draw a bow, he can't put his whole body into it. On the other hand, a recurve bow also takes less strength to achieve the same result. A 50 pound recurve bow will shoot farther than the same weight longbow. Plus dothraki are supposed to be big people as a race, so maybe they use pretty big recurve bows and can pull a lot of weight, compared to average horse archers in real life. It's also less tiring to hold and aim after you draw with it. There are just lots of factors both ways.

By the way, don't dothraki have stirrups?

That's correct, but there is a variance of suitable measures.

If you release the string, the force bends the arrow, a bit like a spring. It literally bends around the bowstave when it starts to fly. That's the point when a shitty arrow shatters. But if it doesn't, the spring of course bends backwards and to the opposite site. The entire arrow flexes/wobbles all the way to the target. And that entire flexing wastes energy that could have gone into punching through whatever.

By using stiffer materials (not available to Planetos) or by using thicker arrow shafts, you can reduce the wasted energy. Of course that increases the mass further, limiting the range, but the impact is worse.

There are a lot of different factors at work. Draw weight, draw length, how the form of the bow translates the draw weight to acceleration on each part of the draw length, the stiffness of the arrow, the mass of the arrow, all that has to work together to achieve a combination of speed, range and kinetic impact. And the sweet spot for shooting bare skin is far from the one for shooting armored targets.

Yes, Dothraki use stirrups. That was just a tongue-in-cheek reference to riding.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Id say its unlikely they have altered it much since they fought steel and silk armoured sanori , ghiscari , ibbenese or valyrian outposts forces etc etc

Yeah the lack of armour makes no sense ...also the lack of lancers too, spears are one of the most common weapons used for a reason (ie simple and cheap to make) its odd there arent more of these instead of the intricately made arkhs esp given how useful they are for cavalry fighting

In terms of war the Dothraki seem a lot like Plains Native Americans without the fireams.

Which doesn't make sense for fighting medieval esque enemies*, but this is probably were GRRM got most of his inspiration from.

*If your enemies use muskets or rifles like the Cowboys and other Native tribes did there is little point in bothering with armour, but not so if bows and crossbows are the main missile weapons since armour can actually protect a lot against those. Likewise if the enemies aren't wearing armour or wielding spears then the need for long and powerful weapons like lances isn't quite as great.

[lomiller]

We don't know what arrows dothraki use, arrows could differ quite a bit among different types of composite bows. Mongol arrows seem to be qutie a bit bigger than turk or tartar ones, for example.

Mongol's carried an assortment of different arrows for different purposes. They used composite, recurved bows that would be much more powerful than a simple bow of similar size and could easily be made to match the draw weight of a longbow. Not only that, the composite bow would be more efficient and faster at the same draw weight so it could actually shoot farther. Another factor to consider is that firing on the move, which the Mongols could and did do adds to the power and range of the arrows. AFAIK there are no authentic examples of the bows the Mongols used but typically a an archer firing from a standing potion could draw a heavier bow than one firing from horseback but this is somewhat dependent on the archer themselves.

Note that Japanese bows could be even longer and heavier draw weights than English longbow, and they found themselves outraged by Mongol archers using their much smaller bows.

I agree but range is clearly something he's considering. It's the only thing he calls out explicitly. And from the world book be know that goldenheart bows outrange pretty much any other non dragonbone bow. So it's kind of natural to look at that list as crossbow < essosi < longbow < goldenheart in terms of range AND quality.

Range is so dependent on draw weight that the archer can handle it almost makes no sense to compare bows this way. If you can make the limbs of the bow lighter you can get more speed and range for a particular bow but that really came into play with a longbow because the limbs were so heavy there was an upper limit on speed and range. A composite recurved bow is already pretty light.

[lomiller]

In terms of war the Dothraki seem a lot like Plains Native Americans without the fireams.

Which doesn't make sense for fighting medieval esque enemies*, but this is probably were GRRM got most of his inspiration from.

The Dothraki are described much like the Mongols who basically handed European Knights their ****, demolishing larger armies with relatively few losses on their own side. Their biggest advantage was tactics, and depending on how Dothraki actually fight they could easily enjoy a similar tactical advantage over the Westerosi armies we have seen thus far. See this account of the Mongol invasion of Europe in 1241.

http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Mongol's carried an assortment of different arrows for different purposes. They used composite, recurved bows that would be much more powerful than a simple bow of similar size and could easily be made to match the draw weight of a longbow. Not only that, the composite bow would be more efficient and faster at the same draw weight so it could actually shoot farther. Another factor to consider is that firing on the move, which the Mongols could and did do adds to the power and range of the arrows. AFAIK there are no authentic examples of the bows the Mongols used but typically a an archer firing from a standing potion could draw a heavier bow than one firing from horseback but this is somewhat dependent on the archer themselves.

Note that Japanese bows could be even longer and heavier draw weights than English longbow, and they found themselves outraged by Mongol archers using their much smaller bows.

Range is so dependent on draw weight that the archer can handle it almost makes no sense to compare bows this way. If you can make the limbs of the bow lighter you can get more speed and range for a particular bow but that really came into play with a longbow because the limbs were so heavy there was an upper limit on speed and range. A composite recurved bow is already pretty light.

IIRC, mongols carried a couple different draw weight bows too, for different purposes. Generally though, their arrows seem to be long, comparable to similar power longbow arrows, maybe a bit longer. You make a good point, there's always the problem with historical bows that we just can't be fully sure if we can believe some of the stories or not. Wooden parts of historical bows and arrows don't preserve well, bow making traditions themselves disappear and get reinvented.

[Nihlus]

The Dothraki are described much like the Mongols who basically handed European Knights their ****, demolishing larger armies with relatively few losses on their own side. Their biggest advantage was tactics, and depending on how Dothraki actually fight they could easily enjoy a similar tactical advantage over the Westerosi armies we have seen thus far. See this account of the Mongol invasion of Europe in 1241.

http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm

No they're not. Please don't make everyone repeat this. Every single thing that made the Mongols effective is completely absent in the Dothraki. Extremely effective organization and chains of command, efficient communication through a series of flags, genius generals, mastery of siege warfare, advanced armor, heavy lancers, and military intelligence... among other things. The Dothraki have none of that. The Dothraki are just a mob of unarmored, untrained men wielding civilian hunting bows and curved swords.

Not even the comments on the Mongols are accurate. They fought two major battles against eastern European powers in the 1240s- Liegnitz and Mohi. At Liegnitz, they fought a backwater army of Poles, and had a significant number advantage (2,000 - 8,000 for the Poles, 8,000 - 20,000 for the Mongols). There were also no Teutonic Knights there, and a bare handful of other knights (what ones WERE there proved to have highly effective armor and iron discipline). Even the comments on Mongol armor are wrong; the armor used by their heavy cavalry was about as good as the mail used by the European knights of the 13th century. At Mohi, they prevailed via superior tactics (made possible by their command structure) and their extra mobility (the whole Mongol force was mounted, while few of the Hungarians were). Yet, Mohi was still a close battle that they almost lost. When the Mongols returned to a newly westernized Hungary in 1285, they were handily beaten.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

The Dothraki are described much like the Mongols who basically handed European Knights their ****, demolishing larger armies with relatively few losses on their own side. Their biggest advantage was tactics, and depending on how Dothraki actually fight they could easily enjoy a similar tactical advantage over the Westerosi armies we have seen thus far. See this account of the Mongol invasion of Europe in 1241.

http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm

Please do tell what about the description of the Dothraki is much like the Mongols.

That they ride horses, and some of them use bows? That's pretty much it. The same can be said of... countless other peoples throughout history.

The way they dress and fight sounds more like Plains Indians such as the Comanche, without the guns. Which is a bit weird and unrealistic.

[hodorisfaclessman]

In terms of war the Dothraki seem a lot like Plains Native Americans without the fireams.

Which doesn't make sense for fighting medieval esque enemies*, but this is probably were GRRM got most of his inspiration from.

*If your enemies use muskets or rifles like the Cowboys and other Native tribes did there is little point in bothering with armour, but not so if bows and crossbows are the main missile weapons since armour can actually protect a lot against those. Likewise if the enemies aren't wearing armour or wielding spears then the need for long and powerful weapons like lances isn't quite as great.

using even a basic spear on horseback would still be likely to be seen simply as how cheap they are to make and they are better (due to the extra range) for knocking other guys on horses off (dothraki vs dothraki) so its odd we dont see them use any

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

using even a basic spear on horseback would still be likely to be seen simply as how cheap they are to make and they are better (due to the extra range) for knocking other guys on horses off (dothraki vs dothraki) so its odd we dont see them use any

I think it wouldn't work, since they are great shooters and wear no armor. Lances and spears are fine weapons if your troops are compressed. But imagine 10 000 dothraki compressing into a charge, they'd be target practice for their enemy khalasar. That other khalasar just spreads out, moves out of the way and launches arrows at the mass of naked people with spears.