The_lost_arryn19 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Something I hve never noticed any one talk about is yorens complete breaking of his nights watch oath to she Arya. Even tho arya is a little girl an should have been saved taking her and bing her north was not only aiding the Starks and hindering te lannisters but she was a huge political proponent in westeros. He was also seeking glory technically because afterward it would have been a tale along the lines of ser barristan rescuing te mad king from duskendal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I don't think he was seeking glory, doesn't strike me as the type and he did it for Benjen, same reason he told Ned about Cat arresting Tyrion. "His blood is black like mine, makes him my brother as much as yours" - Yoren to Ned re Benjen. I do see what you're saying about his helping Arya, that could be construed as taking a part. But being as his actions re Arya didn't lead to him fathering a child, owning lands or taking a wife, I don't think he technically broke any oaths. ETA: Welcome to the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Welcome to the boards! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_lost_arryn19 Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 I've been on these forums for years on various names and I've been using this one for at least half a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonking Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come Technically, staying neutral isn't part of the oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 The Starks have always helped the NW. Nobody goes anywhere in society without aid, and that includes institutions. If the NW refused every instance of aid, then they can expect little aid from the realm. It is a matter of what is asked. This is a relatively minor decision that does not hurt the NW. Also consider this. If Yoren arrived in Winterfell with Ayra, there is a good chance the Starks would have rewarded the NW with men, food, money or all of the above. This was a case where Yoren was already heading to the north. He was not forsaking his duties to the NW, and the NW typically passes through Winterfell. It would be one thing if Yoren completely abandoned his duties, but he did not. If we are going to start claiming members of the NW abandoned their vows, then the entire organization is doomed. How many travel to Mole Town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_lost_arryn19 Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 I mean he wasn't actively seeking glory or taking part in the politics of westeros but even if it was indirect he still was on at least the same level jon was oath breaking probably more. The act in general if he succeeded in getting her to winterfell or to Robb and cat sooner than later would have been a glorious story that people would celebrate and talk about. He took part in the politics by taking Arya, cutting her hair, and getting her out of the city so quickly and so quietly that varys couldn't even find her. Arys was of HUGE political value. She was also worth a ton of gold. I couldn't imagine how much the Starks would give to the person or people who rescued and returned arya safely. I bet the reward would have been big and the Lannisters would have paid; probably even more. Not only that but if the Lannisters have her then they have another hostage and the Starks are fighting battles to get her back. But if she's returned to the Starks than they're using her for marriages and to have their blood back. So in many ways he is breaking the oaths he swore for the nights watch. Even though it was the right thins to do he was still breaking his nw oaths. I get he wasn't intentionally breaking his oathes an he was doing the right thing but he's ill as breaking his nw oathes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Technically, staying neutral isn't part of the oath. Yes I agree. I think that idea has been pushed but is terribly misleading. Protect the Realm seems to be the foundation and core of the NW. If that is the case, any threat to the realm should be "fair" game. Or at least tentatively. If the NW sits at the wall and some army of zombies attacks from Essos and destroys the realm, they have failed. If a Westerosi Lord concocts some WMD and threatens to destroy Westeros, technically they should intervene. I think our attention has been forced to see the NW as defenders of the northern border and nothing else, but in reality the idea of protecting the realm is more than a single boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Yes I agree. I think that idea has been pushed but is terribly misleading. Protect the Realm seems to be the foundation and core of the NW. If that is the case, any threat to the realm should be "fair" game. Or at least tentatively. If the NW sits at the wall and some army of zombies attacks from Essos and destroys the realm, they have failed. If a Westerosi Lord concocts some WMD and threatens to destroy Westeros, technically they should intervene. I think our attention has been forced to see the NW as defenders of the northern border and nothing else, but in reality the idea of protecting the realm is more than a single boundary. I agree. The NW has to protect themselves in order to be around to protect the realm. Since the Starks are their biggest ally they do have a slight allegiance to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I mean he wasn't actively seeking glory or taking part in the politics of westeros but even if it was indirect he still was on at least the same level jon was oath breaking probably more. The act in general if he succeeded in getting her to winterfell or to Robb and cat sooner than later would have been a glorious story that people would celebrate and talk about.He took part in the politics by taking Arya, cutting her hair, and getting her out of the city so quickly and so quietly that varys couldn't even find her. Arys was of HUGE political value. She was also worth a ton of gold. I couldn't imagine how much the Starks would give to the person or people who rescued and returned arya safely. I bet the reward would have been big and the Lannisters would have paid; probably even more. Not only that but if the Lannisters have her then they have another hostage and the Starks are fighting battles to get her back. But if she's returned to the Starks than they're using her for marriages and to have their blood back.So in many ways he is breaking the oaths he swore for the nights watch. Even though it was the right thins to do he was still breaking his nw oaths. I get he wasn't intentionally breaking his oathes an he was doing the right thing but he's ill as breaking his nw oathes.I doubt he saw money in the instance. If anything, he might have hoped the Starks would have given the NW additional help. Ever heard the term "beggars can't be choosers?" Even then I doubt that was Yorens plan. The Starks have given significant aid to the NW, and it seems Yoren is returning the favor of many years. Two things that I think have been taken too literally in this series: vows and prophesies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Even Mormont shrugs off the "broken oaths" of the members that dig for buried treasure in Mole's Town. The men aren't perfect, especially the guys they've been inducting these days (rapers, thieves, poachers, etc.) and asking these guys to be perfect is setting them up for failure. Now if Yoren had held Arya for ransom or if any of the NWs fathered a child on a MT whore and tried to leave to raise a family, it would be a different story. But as long as their actions don't interfere with the NWs purpose then there's some wiggle room. Not all black and white. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 You could look at it that way, but you could also consider the fact that if the Starks are grateful to the NW they are going to give them a lot of support. If they are pissed off at them they could prevent them from getting anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 You could look at it that way, but you could also consider the fact that if the Starks are grateful to the NW they are going to give them a lot of support. If they are pissed off at them they could prevent them from getting anything. This and the fact that Winterfell is one of the closest keeps to the Wall, so it is in Winterfell's best interest to supply the Wall; and with the lack of men it is in the NW's best interest to support Winterfell. This I think ties into deeper questions regarding the Starks, Winterfell, the CotF, and the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Moat Cailin Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 While I can see an argument for the part about "taking part" I disagree with the one for glory because NW have done things before that have brought them glory but as long as that's not the reason they're doing it, which I think is true for Yoren, it's fine, like Jon's the defense of Castle Black was pretty glorious, but that's not oathbreaking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 While I can see an argument for the part about "taking part" I disagree with the one for glory because NW have done things before that have brought them glory but as long as that's not the reason they're doing it, which I think is true for Yoren, it's fine, like Jon's the defense of Castle Black was pretty glorious, but that's not oathbreaking His defense was glorious but it wasn't done for glory. If they happen to be awesome when doing their job it's just icing on the cake. It comes down to intentions. If Yoren's intention was to help Arya for the sake of being honored by the Starks then it would change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Moat Cailin Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 His defense was glorious but it wasn't done for glory. If they happen to be awesome when doing their job it's just icing on the cake. It comes down to intentions. If Yoren's intention was to help Arya for the sake of being honored by the Starks then it would change things. That's what I'm saying, Yoren wasn't doing it with glory in mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 That's what I'm saying, Yoren wasn't doing it with glory in mind Sorry, I got confused with what/who you were disagreeing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden-Mackenzie Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Yoren was at Baelor's expecting to take Ned to the Wall, then things went sideways and there's Arya, about to witness it all. Yes, the Night's Watch has more of a tie to the Starks than any other family in the realm, both historically and to the current generation, but ultimately Yoren was protecting an innocent child, which he continued to do until he died. Sometimes protecting the realm entails protecting it from itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronnBlackwater Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I agree with Lemonking that the oath does not preclude the Night's Watch from taking part in matters of the realm. I think this part of the Watch's modus operandi is to preclude angry rulers from wiping them out as it is stated very clearly that the castles are indefensible from the south. With this in mind, the only rulers who could actually destroy the Watch are the Starks since no southern army has ever been able to get past Moat Cailin. So, in many ways, it actually makes sense for Yoren to help Arya. Now, some of the other actions that Yoren takes by refusing Amory Lorch entry into the holdfast and attacking an army that represents the king could be considered as being against the oath (which is what I thought this thread was going to be able before I read the OP). From the wiki-"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince Of Tatters Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Not all black and white. :) No, just all black! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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