Cersei's less-than-reliable accusation

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yes, they both fucked around, but I don't think there's any question that Robert had the relative moral high ground.

A: We know Cersei is delusional, immediately casting doubt on whether it even happened.

B: She had his only trueborn son killed soon after being born (she claims it was a fever that took him). Correct me if I'm wrong, this could have been show only, it's been awhile since I read GoT.

C: She orchestrated his death.

EDIT: Cersei sleeping around MAY have been a death sentence for her, it most likely would not have been a death sentence for the children, and even saying a death sentence for her is a bit of a leap. Robert was a drunk fool, but he wasn't cruel.

The true-born son was book only, but she did make Jaime take her to a place to get moontea or whatever to terminate a pregnancy from Robert.

Who cheated on who first?

“I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled.”

Given that Jaime has only fucked one woman, definitely only one queen, and this is a Cersei POV, I think it's safe to say that she cheated first. I can't imagine that the betrothal would have stayed intact or the wedding proceeded if that had been made known to Robert.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

so the idea that Robert is not capable of violence is laughable.

No one said that. I've at least have said that he could be violent but he prefers not to. Why he is worse than Cersei who has hit him too?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No one said that. I've at least have said that he could be violent but he prefers not to. Why he is worse than Cersei who has hit him too?

I didn't say he was worse. I have, repeatedly, said that they were both equally shitty to each other.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I didn't say he was worse. I have, repeatedly, said that they were both equally shitty to each other.

Only Cersei cheated first, never tried to make the marriage work, killed his children and killed him. Sure, equally.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

“I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled.”

Given that Jaime has only fucked one woman, definitely only one queen, and this is a Cersei POV, I think it's safe to say that she cheated first. I can't imagine that the betrothal would have stayed intact or the wedding proceeded if that had been made known to Robert.

See, before they were married. Who was the first to cheat? :drool:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Only Cersei cheated first, never tried to make the marriage work, killed his children and killed him. Sure, equally.

1.Cheating before you are married is not cheating first.

2.Gendry was born in 284, the night Joffrey was conceived she was with Jaime and he was sleeping with his plump cousin, they were both cheating on each other very early.

3. You have said this a few times; 'Cersei never tried to make the marriage work.' When did Robert?

4. According to Ned, he would have killed her and her children. Both as bad as each other in that regards.

edit: They are pretty equal in their marriage if you ask me. The beauty of it is they are both usurpers as well. They were made for each other.

[Bright Ancalagon]

'Cause a strong men should not hit a woman.

Well he could if she was holding a knife, or sh't but it's not the case.

[COYStars]

1.Cheating before you are married is not cheating first.

With all due respect, if my wife had slept with someone else on the morning of our wedding I'd call that cheating. I'd struggle to find a sane person who wouldn't.

4. According to Ned, he would have killed her and her children. Both as bad as each other in that regards.

I'm not sure why you are struggling with the point that Robert having Cersei killed would be entirely legal and just and legitimate (and her having him killed was none of those things).

But - in any event - "would have" (aka "might have") is not quite the same as "did".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1.Cheating before you are married is not cheating first.-That is ridiculous and I hope that you understand it.

2.Gendry was born in 284, the night Joffrey was conceived she was with Jaime and he was sleeping with his plump cousin, they were both cheating on each other very early.-She f**ed Jaime the morning of her wedding.

3. You have said this a few times; 'Cersei never tried to make the marriage work.' When did Robert?-From the beginning. Even she said that he tried to take her with him in his trips and she prefered f***ng Jaime.

4. According to Ned, he would have killed her and her children. Both as bad as each other in that regards.-She did it tho. She killed the twins in CR and sold their mother.

edit: They are pretty equal in their marriage if you ask me. The beauty of it is they are both usurpers as well. They were made for each other.-The difference is that one fought in the open and conquered the Throne and the other f**ed her way to usurp the Throne.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

With all due respect, if my wife had slept with someone else on the morning of our wedding I'd call that cheating. I'd struggle to find a sane person who wouldn't.

How do you know Robert didn't do the same, or slept with someone the night before. Do you really think from the moment this political marriage was arranged he didnt sleep with another woman up until his wedding night?

While he was betrothed to Lyanna, someone he apparently loved, he was still sleeping around.

I'm not sure why you are struggling with the point that Robert having Cersei killed would be entirely legal and just and legitimate (and her having him killed was none of those things).

I'm not struggling with it, I have already said that the westeros law is on his side.

What I have repeatedly disagreed with is that Robert had the moral high ground in their fucked up relationship. He didn't, morally they were equally repulsive.

But - in any event - "would have" (aka "might have") is not quite the same as "did".

She beat him to the punch. Ned, Roberts best friend, confirms he would have done it and as we saw him ordering the assassination of a teenage pregnant girl its easy to see why Cersei took that threat seriously.

[Queen of dragonstone]

Cersei was just trying to make an excuse in order to ease herself. Sometimes our biggest enemy is our consciousness. Not that I believe that Cersei has any but she wants to ease herself. She killed Melara because she was in love with Jaime, she killed Robert because he was in love with Lyanna and she will kill or threaten to kill Brienne because Jaime is in love with her.

I always thought she killed her more along the lines of "if we never talk about it again it won't happen, I need to get rid of any reminders".

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. How is it ridiculous. They were both cheating on each other from the start.

2. And? Did he not fuck anyone else in the previous 48 hours?

3. Of course she preferred sleeping with Jaime, he wasn't assaulting her to get some.

4. I never said she didnt. I;m making the point that they are equal, not that one is better than the other.

5. Yup, her way was far less violent. She found a nicer way to usurp the throne.

[COYStars]

How do you know Robert didn't do the same, or slept with someone the night before. Do you really think from the moment this political marriage was arranged he didnt sleep with another woman up until his wedding night?

While he was betrothed to Lyanna, someone he apparently loved, he was still sleeping around.

The question was as to who was unfaithful first. It's a pretty meaningless question given that both will have been unfaithful. But we don't know whether Robert was unfaithful immediately before the wedding. We do know that Cersei was.

What I have repeatedly disagreed with is that Robert had the moral high ground in their fucked up relationship. He didn't, morally they were equally repulsive.

I don't understand that POV - like I say, Robert turned out to be a pretty benevolent husband. He let her have her way on pretty much everything. By the end he was almost harmless and beaten, she was poisonous.

She beat him to the punch. Ned, Roberts best friend, confirms he would have done it and as we saw him ordering the assassination of a teenage pregnant girl its easy to see why Cersei took that threat seriously.

We don't know that (and nor does Ned). It's speculative. What we do know is that she engineered his death and then had his illegitimate children killed. If having him killed was a self-protective move (which is denied), having his bastards killed was pure culpable ambition, of that there is no doubt.

There is no defending or excusing Cersei.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The question was as to who was unfaithful first. It's a pretty meaningless question given that both will have been unfaithful. But we don't know whether Robert was unfaithful immediately before the wedding. We do know that Cersei was.

Exactly. We dont know who was unfaithful first. We know both fucked around before the marriage and during the marriage.

I don't understand that POV - like I say, Robert turned out to be a pretty benevolent husband. He let her have her way on pretty much everything. By the end he was almost harmless and beaten, she was poisonous.

Nope, pretty much bullshit.

The fact that he hit her does not mean he was harmless.

We don't know that (and nor does Ned). It's speculative. What we do know is that she engineered his death and then had his illegitimate children killed. If having him killed was a self-protective move (which is denied), having his bastards killed was pure culpable ambition, of that there is no doubt.

Its not speculative. We know he ordered a pregnant 13/14 year old murdered.

Had she told him the truth her life, Joffrey life, Myrcella life and Tommens life would have been forfeit.

They both would have killed each other, the only difference is that Cersei beat him to it.

There is no defending or excusing Cersei.

No one is trying to. I have called her awful more than once in this thread.

In regards to their marriage they were both equally as bad as each other.

[Universal Sword Donor]

See, before they were married. Who was the first to cheat? :drool:

She was. She was the first to cheat. Why do you think I posted that?

Exactly. We dont know who was unfaithful first. We know both fucked around before the marriage and during the marriage.

Yes we do. And imo Lyanna and Rickard would have been well within their rights to deny the marriage if he fucked someone on the morning of the wedding.

Surely we can agree that whoring around months before the wedding and during a war for a good chunk, even if not moral or smart, is completely different than fucking someone on your wedding day?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

She was. She was the first to cheat. Why do you think I posted that?

Yes we do. And imo Lyanna and Rickard would have been well within their rights to deny the marriage if he fucked someone on the morning of the wedding.

Surely we can agree that whoring around months before the wedding and during a war for a good chunk, even if not moral or smart, is completely different than fucking someone on your wedding day?

Cersei was never willing to try to make the marriage work and not only with Robert. No matter who she was going to marry she would had been the same. She sexmanipulated Jaime to become a KG in order to have a lover.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

She was. She was the first to cheat. Why do you think I posted that?

How is sleeping with someone before the marriage being the first one to cheat?

And how do you know Robert also hadn't slept with another person before the marriage?

[Universal Sword Donor]

How is sleeping with someone before the marriage being the first one to cheat?

And how do you know Robert also hadn't slept with another person before the marriage?

immediate proximity and timing would be the obvious explanation.

Robert did sleep with many women before the marriage. We know nothing about the immediate proximity before the wedding regarding his behavior. We likely never will which makes it a moot point.

Frankly who was worse in marriage isn't even a debate in my point. Robert would have had legal and moral justification to have Cersei killed. The only reason she had to kill Robert (that wasn't tit-for-tat with each other) was her children, which she *didn't* have to have. Ask her about when Robert got her pregnant. The Queen sleeping around is high treason because she can get pregnant with babies assumed to be the kings. Robert's byblows have no chance of becoming king, even if legitimized, before any trueborn heirs. It's hard to argue against biology, and frankly Cersei gets the upperhand in that particular point because anything coming out of her is, once again, assumed trueborn.

And while I think that Cersei and Jaime would definitely have died and he would be willing to kill Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, it would have been a coinflip if he actually did. Using Dany and her son as evidence is flimsy. The reason he'd have them killed is because they have a claim to the throne AND nobles there willing to support them. The Stormlords certainly wouldn't be behind Joffrey. They joined Renly's army for a reason. If Jaime and Cersei are executed for incest/treason/whatever, then those three are going to be attainted, with no claim to the throne, and no support to make a non-existent claim. They simply are not the threat from a dynastic position that Dany and her son are. Joff and Tommen might get sent to the Wall or back to CL to idk clean the drains with Tyrion. Myrcella would likely become a silent sister. They might die but there's not as much need for them to be dead as Dany and her son.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

snip

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

There is little doubt in my mind that Robert would have had those children killed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

There is little doubt in my mind that Robert would have had those children killed.

It's a very distinct possibility. We also see Robert threaten to cut off Ned's head when he resigns the Handship and come around. I think it's very much a coinflip if Ned and others are around to temper the initial fury.

The primary reason for him to have them killed in a medieval and Westerosi setting is their existence as a threat to the throne. With Cersei and Jaime attainted as traitors, bastards born of incest aren't going to have the right to the throne by blood and the only support they'd receive from any LP is Tywin. Everyone else is either allied already, hates the Lannisters (Dorne, IB), or is in a prime position to have their daughter marry the king (Tyrells).

So while Robert's wroth would be fairly impressive, per Ned himself, we've seen several times where he's threatened death and worse only to be talked out of it.