Did Lysa take her moon tea after she was married?

[Megaera]

Nope, I'm still not buying Lysa being at least 6 months pregnant at the time of her wedding, and no one noticing.

Lysa got fat as she got older, but she is described as being 'slender, shy and sweet' as a young girl.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Cat commented on the Arryns being proud and concerned with honor... a young woman proven to be fertile, but not in public... That would also explain why Hoster did not go to the maester for the moon tea...

So then, according to you, Jons honor would not allow him to marry someone else's widow, but it did allow him to marry a visibly pregnant girl?

[Megaera]

So then, according to you, Jons honor would not allow him to marry someone else's widow, but it did allow him to marry a visibly pregnant girl?

I can buy Jon knowing Lysa had been pregnant previously, but I can't see him being OK with marrying her when she was 6 months along with no chance of being able to get pregnant with his heir before he left to fight in a war a couple of weeks later.

[stateofdissipation]

So then, according to you, Jons honor would not allow him to marry someone else's widow, but it did allow him to marry a visibly pregnant girl?

Visibly pregnant... would be the key there.

A girl Hoster could view to verify her fertitlity. So yes visibly pregnant.

I am relatively sure you are using

A girl that anyone could view and verify she was fertile. Also visibly pregnant.

The difference is between public knowledge and private knowledge. The assertion would be then that "pride" and "honor" deal with appearance in public rather than private codes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I can buy Jon knowing Lysa had been pregnant previously, but I can't see him being OK with marrying her when she was 6 months along with no chance of being able to get pregnant with his heir before he left to fight in a war a couple of weeks later.

Agreed.

Visibly pregnant... would be the key there.

A girl Hoster could view to verify her fertitlity. So yes visibly pregnant.

I am relatively sure you are using

A girl that anyone could view and verify she was fertile. Also visibly pregnant.

The difference is between public knowledge and private knowledge. The assertion would be then that "pride" and "honor" deal with appearance in public rather than private codes.

I don't think you get my point...

- there is no sense in Hoster allowing his daughter to birth a bastard, as it would make it so very much more difficult to find her a respectable match

- there is no way Hoster could have predicted that Jon Arryn would need a new bride, half a year later. While he might not have had children of his own, he had accepted other relatives as his heir. The fact he had not previously remarried, would then also suggest he had made his peace with the situation. Especially since he only agreed to marry Lysa after his last heir had died..

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked. Jon Arryns men would have seen his new bride naked. Had she been visibly pregnant, they would have noticed. Hence, she was not visibly pregnant.

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before. It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

Also

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood.. yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

- Jon Arryns men saw her naked, yet there was nothing that alarmed them

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No.

Also, your theory seems to suggest Hoster actually waited until Lysa had been married for a month before he gave her anything...? Correct me if I'm wrong. But that sounds quite illogical as well.

[stateofdissipation]

I can buy Jon knowing Lysa had been pregnant previously, but I can't see him being OK with marrying her when she was 6 months along with no chance of being able to get pregnant with his heir before he left to fight in a war a couple of weeks later.

Neither can I.

However according to Cat's timeline of Hoster comforting Lysa that is what happened. That alone can be dismissed or labeled as a mistake.

Timing of when Lysa was given moon tea should prove Cat wrong and should be well before Lysa's wedding.

Lysa became pregnant following Brandon's duel. According to her Littlefinger was not sent back to the fingers because of the "silly duel." That leaves Littlefinger getting Lysa pregnant as the why for his banishment and when Hoster knew Lysa to be pregnant.

This leaves plenty of time for Hoster to have given Lysa moon tea before her wedding. Cat was confusing the abortion with the false pregnancy.

Now on to the abortion, Hoster called it "dead." Lysa called it Little finger's son that they "murdered."

If Hoster had given Lysa moon tea immediately after learning she was pregnant, Littlefinger must have been recovering from his duel at Riverrun for at least three months for fetal development (past the first trimester) to match the description of the abortion. We know that was not the case.

Hoster did not give Lysa moon tea as soon as he learned she was pregnant. Rather the event was some time later at least two and a half months later by the length of Littlefinger's recovery and fetal development past the first trimester.

This puts Cat's timeline back into play.

Jon being OK with marrying her when she was 6 months along with no chance of being able to get pregnant with his heir before he left to fight in a war a couple of weeks later.

still does not make any sense.

Arryn honoring his agreement to marry Lysa if she was proven to be fertile does.

It also explains the advanced fetal development.

It also explain's Hoster would delay the moon tea.

It explains why Hoster did not use a maester to make the moon tea.

It explains why all the joy went out of Lysa following her marriage.... and perhaps her insanity.

It explains how Cat came up with her timeline.

It explains Hoster's extreme guilt for dealing with his daughter's mistake-- Her mistake, his fault.

All it requires is that Hoster was willing to do anything to marry his daughter to the head of a great house.

Hoster and marriage

Banished his brother for refusing to marry a Redwyne

Attempted to marry Lysa to Jamie-- when he was the heir.

Arranged the marriage between Catelyn and Winterfell--- twice.

If the marriage between Lysa and Jon Arryn was negotiated before the rebellion, Hoster really had nothing to offer, Jon had an heir and no need for Tully swords.... Hoster was in the position to offer a young lady wife privately proven to be fertile, yet to the world a virgin.

[Megaera]

Lysa would have had to go through a labour and birth, and as Rhaenys said, she was gravely ill afterwards. Cat would have known something was going on even if we allow for the fact that she may have been 'banished' from being near Lysa when it was going on.

[stateofdissipation]

Agreed.

I don't think you get my point...

- there is no sense in Hoster allowing his daughter to birth a bastard, as it would make it so very much more difficult to find her a respectable match

- there is no way Hoster could have predicted that Jon Arryn would need a new bride, half a year later. While he might not have had children of his own, he had accepted other relatives as his heir. The fact he had not previously remarried, would then also suggest he had made his peace with the situation. Especially since he only agreed to marry Lysa after his last heir had died..

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked. Jon Arryns men would have seen his new bride naked. Had she been visibly pregnant, they would have noticed. Hence, she was not visibly pregnant.

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before. It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

Also

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood.. yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

- Jon Arryns men saw her naked, yet there was nothing that alarmed them

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No.

Also, your theory seems to suggest Hoster actually waited until Lysa had been married for a month before he gave her anything...? Correct me if I'm wrong. But that sounds quite illogical as well.

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked.

We have also read of weddings where the bedding ceremony was not performed... Tyrion and Sansa and Tommen and Margery...

Did Walder Frey get a bedding ceremony for all his wives? it does not say.... Do we have another example of a bedding ceremony for a third marriage?

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before.

Father told me I should thank the gods that a Lord as great as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled...Lysa aSoS Sansa VII

Not would have did...

It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

absolutely... Unless there was no risk-- Jon Arryn knew before...

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood..

Agreed she called the abortion murdering littlefinger's son. Hoster calls him dead... All in all a traumatic experience.

yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

"

She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father’s care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert’s rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. “Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they’ll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They’ll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.” She was so happy.

But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . ." -ASoS Catelyn I

Agreeing that Lysa did have an abortion that was rather traumatic-- Cat either missed it entirely or misinterpreted it.

Your assertion is that cat missed it entirely... If Cat missed it entirely months earlier she should be equally capable of missing it entirely months later... The argument relies on Cat not knowing about it to prove when it could not have happened.

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

Agreed--- the timeline is somewhere in the above thread... Hoster wanted the Lysa to marry the lord of a great house or his heir months and years before--- Jon Arryn was in position to set his own terms.

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No

Timeline still above... Apparently Cat was blind. Cat did miss that Lysa was not having her period, pregnancy symptoms, and appearance.... based on the description of the abortion given by Hoster and Lysa.... No matter when you place the abortion, Cat was unaware.

[stateofdissipation]

Agreed.

I don't think you get my point...

- there is no sense in Hoster allowing his daughter to birth a bastard, as it would make it so very much more difficult to find her a respectable match

- there is no way Hoster could have predicted that Jon Arryn would need a new bride, half a year later. While he might not have had children of his own, he had accepted other relatives as his heir. The fact he had not previously remarried, would then also suggest he had made his peace with the situation. Especially since he only agreed to marry Lysa after his last heir had died..

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked. Jon Arryns men would have seen his new bride naked. Had she been visibly pregnant, they would have noticed. Hence, she was not visibly pregnant.

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before. It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

Also

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood.. yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

- Jon Arryns men saw her naked, yet there was nothing that alarmed them

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No.

Also, your theory seems to suggest Hoster actually waited until Lysa had been married for a month before he gave her anything...? Correct me if I'm wrong. But that sounds quite illogical as well.

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked.

We have also read of weddings where the bedding ceremony was not performed... Tyrion and Sansa and Tommen and Margery...

Did Walder Frey get a bedding ceremony for all his wives? it does not say.... Do we have another example of a bedding ceremony for a third marriage?

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before.

Father told me I should thank the gods that a Lord as great as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled...Lysa aSoS Sansa VII

Not would have did...

It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

absolutely... Unless there was no risk-- Jon Arryn knew before...

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood..

Agreed she called the abortion murdering littlefinger's son. Hoster calls him dead... All in all a traumatic experience.

yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

"

She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father’s care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert’s rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. “Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they’ll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They’ll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.” She was so happy.

But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . ." -ASoS Catelyn I

Agreeing that Lysa did have an abortion that was rather traumatic-- Cat either missed it entirely or misinterpreted it.

Your assertion is that cat missed it entirely... If Cat missed it entirely months earlier she should be equally capable of missing it entirely months later... The argument relies on Cat not knowing about it to prove when it could not have happened.

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

Agreed--- the timeline is somewhere in the above thread... Hoster wanted the Lysa to marry the lord of a great house or his heir months and years before--- Jon Arryn was in position to set his own terms.

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No

Timeline still above... Apparently Cat was blind. Cat did miss that Lysa was not having her period, pregnancy symptoms, and appearance.... based on the description of the abortion given by Hoster and Lysa.... No matter when you place the abortion, Cat was unaware.

Also, your theory seems to suggest Hoster actually waited until Lysa had been married for a month before he gave her anything...?

The closest we get to a date is soon after---from Lysa's blood came-- Afterwards-- from when Jon Arryn Left

Catelyn does not specify when their mood blood did not come at the accustomed time fell in relation to the husbands leaving...

If Cat conceived on her wedding night, her first missed period would be two weeks later.... the day after they rode off to war. The later Cat conceived, the later her first missed period would be.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But that sounds quite illogical as well.

That does sound illogical... However the minimum time frame is soon after Jon Arryn left. The maximum time frame is soon after two weeks after Jon Arryn left.

[stateofdissipation]

Lysa would have had to go through a labour and birth, and as Rhaenys said, she was gravely ill afterwards. Cat would have known something was going on even if we allow for the fact that she may have been 'banished' from being near Lysa when it was going on.

No time frame we apply can have Cat knowing about the abortion... because Cat did not know of the abortion. If it was the day Littlefinger left---- Cat did not know. If it was soon after her wedding--Cat did not know.

The text has Cat missing the event regardless of its timing. If you can assert it about the days after her wedding, you can assert it about the days after Littlefinger left....

[Megaera]

No time frame we apply can have Cat knowing about the abortion... because Cat did not know of the abortion. If it was the day Littlefinger left---- Cat did not know. If it was soon after her wedding--Cat did not know.

The text has Cat missing the event regardless of its timing. If you can assert it about the days after her wedding, you can assert it about the days after Littlefinger left....

If it was a few days after LF left, then Lysa would have been a few weeks pregnant, and any miscarriage/abortion would be no more than a heavy period.

If it was after marrying Jon, then she would have been at least 6 months pregnant and would have had to go through a labour and birth.

As you say, cat did not know about the abortion. But for your theory to be correct she would have had to miss the fact that Lysa was, as you say, visibly pregnant.

Cat not knowing Lysa was in the early stages of pregnancy, and taken ill is plausible. Cat not knowing Lysa was 6 months pregnant and then taken ill is stretching credulity.

[stateofdissipation]

If it was after marrying Jon, then she would have been at least 6 months pregnant and would have had to go through a labour and birth.

If it was a few days after LF left, then Lysa would have been a few weeks pregnant, and any miscarriage/abortion would be no more than a heavy period.

If it was after marrying Jon, then she would have been at least 6 months pregnant and would have had to go through a labour and birth.

As you say, cat did not know about the abortion. But for your theory to be correct she would have had to miss the fact that Lysa was, as you say, visibly pregnant.

Cat not knowing Lysa was in the early stages of pregnancy, and taken ill is plausible. Cat not knowing Lysa was 6 months pregnant and then taken ill is stretching credulity.

almost a year to the Sack of King's Landing--from Ned

after King's Landing was the time it takes to:

1. march an army from King's Landing to Storm's End.

2. travel with a small party from Storm's End to the Tower of Joy on horseback

3 travel from the Tower of Joy to Starfall--size of party unknown method of travel horseback

4. travel from Starfall to Winterfell--size of party and method of travel unknown..

the entire war last almost a year plus Ned's journey-

1 year of that time was after Ned's wedding.

He had a man's needs after all and they had spent that first year apart, Ned off to war in the south... aGoT page 60

(Almost a year plus Ned's journey) - (1 year after the battle of the bells)= (Ned's journey)

The time it took for Ned to make is Journey is the same as the time the battle of the bells happened after the start of the rebellion. Technically it is that minus the difference between almost a year and a year.

1. march an army from King's Landing to Storm's End.

2. travel with a small party from Storm's End to the Tower of Joy on horseback

3 travel from the Tower of Joy to Starfall--size of party unknown method of travel horseback

4. travel from Starfall to Winterfell--size of party and method of travel unknown..

I really can't say your six months falls is impossible... I also can't verify it.

That being said... the birth and abortion does fit with Hoster's "dead" and Lysa's "they murdered" Littlefinger's son

As you say, cat did not know about the abortion. But for your theory to be correct she would have had to miss the fact that Lysa was, as you say, visibly pregnant.

Visibly pregnant--- visible does not necessarily include public display. Can be seen does not equal is on display. Wearing clothes in public does not render the nude body invisible... it simply conceals it.

[Megaera]

For your theory to be correct:

Only a few months have elapsed since the start of Rob Rebellion and the Battle of Bells. Enough time to be visibly pregnant but not so much that her own sister or maids or anyone at the weddings would notice a bump.

Jon Arryn, who wanted an heir, agreeing to marry a woman who was in no position to give him an heir.

Lysa, when finding out Cat was pregnant, playing along and saying she is newly pregnant too.

Cat remembering that Lysa was upset when she started her period.

If Cat thinks that was when the miscarriage took place then surely she would also recall that Lysa was seriously ill and nearly died.

Consider all that against:

Lysa telling her father she is a few weeks pregnant hoping that Hoster will make LF marry her.

Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking moon tea causing a miscarriage which nearly killed her. Cat not knowing about the pregnancy would have no reason to link her illness to a pregnancy.

Jon's wife dying an unspecified period of time later. Hoster approaching Jon offering Lysa to cement an alliance. Jon agrees to the match as Hoster has told him that she was 'spoiled' but definitely fertile.

Jon and Lysa consummating their marriage with the hope of Lysa falling pregnant before Jon goes to war and risking his death.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Neither can I.

However according to Cat's timeline of Hoster comforting Lysa that is what happened. That alone can be dismissed or labeled as a mistake.

Catelyn believes whatever child Lysa lost, was Jon's.., That means that Cat can only conclude that Lysa got pregnant after her marriage, and lost the child after her marriage, but before moving to the Eyrie, and later KL, because Hoster wouldn't have been there otherwise..

Catelyn has no idea that Lysa was no longer a virgin upon her marriage, so she can't conclude that it might have happened before.. Not without learning about Lysa and LF..

- there is no way that Lysa was visibly pregnant at her wedding. We've read about Westerosi wedding customs.. they strip the bride naked.

We have also read of weddings where the bedding ceremony was not performed... Tyrion and Sansa and Tommen and Margery...

Did Walder Frey get a bedding ceremony for all his wives? it does not say.... Do we have another example of a bedding ceremony for a third marriage?

Tyrion and Sansa were supposed to have the bedding ceremony, but Tyrion refused harshly. Their wedding shows that, if it is possible for the bride and groom to have a bedding ceremony, it is supposed to happen.

For Tommen and Margaery, it was also discussed, and agreed upon that Tommen was too young, which is why the bedding ceremony did not take place.

Whether Walder Frey got one every single time, I don't know, but it doesn't matter.. We get the explanation of a regular Westerosi wedding. And in the eyes of all present, there would have been no reason for Lysa not to have a bedding ceremony, especially considering Catelyn did get one.

- Hoster would have taken quite a big risk by revealing that Lysa had slept with another before.

Father told me I should thank the gods that a Lord as great as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled...Lysa aSoS Sansa VII

Not would have did...

I don't understand what you are trying to say here? "soiled" meant Lysa was no longer a maiden.

It wad even a bigger risk to reveal she had gotten pregnant from that encounter. Allowing her to remain pregnant all that time, would be a fool's decision..

absolutely... Unless there was no risk-- Jon Arryn knew before...

And now Jon Arryn suddenly learns of Lysa´s pregnancy withot anyone telling him?

- Lysa almost died from the moon tea.. she lost quite a lot of blood..

Agreed she called the abortion murdering littlefinger's son. Hoster calls him dead... All in all a traumatic experience.

yet Cat believes that Lysa simply had been a few days late a month after her marriage. That doesn't sound any bit similar..

"

Agreeing that Lysa did have an abortion that was rather traumatic-- Cat either missed it entirely or misinterpreted it.

Your assertion is that cat missed it entirely... If Cat missed it entirely months earlier she should be equally capable of missing it entirely months later... The argument relies on Cat not knowing about it to prove when it could not have happened.

Missing the signs of a pregnancy for a month or two is not the same as missing the signs of a pregnancy for 6 months or so.. And especially after Lysa declared to Catelyn that they might both be pregnant, it would be logical for Catelyn to become more alert to stuff concerning pregnancy... Including any illness Lysa might have had.

Hoster could have declared Lysa's abortion to Cat as "your sister is ill"... That would be the end of that. If Lysa fell ill so soon after declaring she might be pregnant by Jon, Catelyn would have had more reason to believe Lysa had been pregnant with Jon's child during that first month or so of the marriage after all.

- Jon A. only wanted a new wife after his last heir died, not in the months (years?) before.

Agreed--- the timeline is somewhere in the above thread... Hoster wanted the Lysa to marry the lord of a great house or his heir months and years before--- Jon Arryn was in position to set his own terms.

Hoster had been trying to get Lysa married to Jaime Lannister. No description of his ideas after Jaime joined the KG has been given. Do take note that it happened some year and a half before Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn..

- Catelyn would have been blind to the fact that Lysa was not having her period, had pregnancy symptoms, and had a growing belly.. you can hide such stuff for a short period... Half a year? No

Timeline still above... Apparently Cat was blind. Cat did miss that Lysa was not having her period, pregnancy symptoms, and appearance.... based on the description of the abortion given by Hoster and Lysa.... No matter when you place the abortion, Cat was unaware.

The statements in red are mine.

Also, your theory seems to suggest Hoster actually waited until Lysa had been married for a month before he gave her anything...?

The closest we get to a date is soon after---from Lysa's blood came-- Afterwards-- from when Jon Arryn Left

Catelyn does not specify when their mood blood did not come at the accustomed time fell in relation to the husbands leaving...

If Cat conceived on her wedding night, her first missed period would be two weeks later.... the day after they rode off to war. The later Cat conceived, the later her first missed period would be.

The exact timing of Lysa's moon blood coming, was not my point.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But that sounds quite illogical as well.

That does sound illogical... However the minimum time frame is soon after Jon Arryn left. The maximum time frame is soon after two weeks after Jon Arryn left.

What's the use of Jon Arryn marrying a woman to get himself an heir, while that woman cannot get pregnant at that time, only to ride back into months and months of war which might very well lead to his own death?

[stateofdissipation]

For your theory to be correct:

Only a few months have elapsed since the start of Rob Rebellion and the Battle of Bells. Enough time to be visibly pregnant but not so much that her own sister or maids or anyone at the weddings would notice a bump.

Jon Arryn, who wanted an heir, agreeing to marry a woman who was in no position to give him an heir.

Lysa, when finding out Cat was pregnant, playing along and saying she is newly pregnant too.

Cat remembering that Lysa was upset when she started her period.

If Cat thinks that was when the miscarriage took place then surely she would also recall that Lysa was seriously ill and nearly died.

Consider all that against:

Lysa telling her father she is a few weeks pregnant hoping that Hoster will make LF marry her.

Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking moon tea causing a miscarriage which nearly killed her. Cat not knowing about the pregnancy would have no reason to link her illness to a pregnancy.

Jon's wife dying an unspecified period of time later. Hoster approaching Jon offering Lysa to cement an alliance. Jon agrees to the match as Hoster has told him that she was 'spoiled' but definitely fertile.

Jon and Lysa consummating their marriage with the hope of Lysa falling pregnant before Jon goes to war and risking his death.

Jon Arryn, who wanted an heir, agreeing to marry a woman who was in no position to give him an heir.

It requires Jon Arryn having agreed to marry Lysa if she was proven to be fertile-- that would have to have been before the rebellion when Hoster wanted Lysa married to a lord, more than Jon Arryn wanted to get married.

If Cat thinks that was when the miscarriage took place then surely she would also recall that Lysa was seriously ill and nearly died.

Cat has no recollection of Lysa being seriously ill and nearly dying at any time--- It requires Cat to have been mistaken rather than completely oblivious.....

Lysa telling her father she is a few weeks pregnant hoping that Hoster will make LF marry her.

Lysa claimed that the real reason Littlefinger was sent away was not the silly duel with Brandon. As far as we are aware the only thing other than the duel was Lysa's pregnancy.

Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking moon tea causing a miscarriage which nearly killed her. Cat not knowing about the pregnancy would have no reason to link her illness to a pregnancy.

Without any mention of Lysa's serious illness or near before her marriage, we have no reason to consider it.

Rhaella's delicate health is linked with her difficulty in having children. A serious illness should be linked somewhere in Cat's mind with Lysa's five miscarriages.

Jon's wife dying an unspecified period of time later. Hoster approaching Jon offering Lysa to cement an alliance. Jon agrees to the match as Hoster has told him that she was 'spoiled' but definitely fertile.

Jon's wife did die... and we do not know when.

Implies Jon wanted a wife....

Accepted...

Hoster was actively shopping his daughters.

Implies the alliance is for the rebellion....

Jon Arryn was already in rebellion. Hoster had already brokered a marriage into the rebellion with Stark.

The Tullys and Arryns were already in a cemented alliance.... Aerys would die or Stark, Tully, and Arryn would...

Which is a stronger cement-- imminent threat of death or a wedding vows?

Alternatively, Hoster believed Aerys would let him live if he only married one daughter to a man he named traitor.

Hoster really had nothing to offer-- other than a soiled daughter... fertile by his word alone...

Jon had nothing to gain--other than a soiled daughter--- fertile by Hoster's word.

Jon and Lysa consummating their marriage with the hope of Lysa falling pregnant before Jon goes to war and risking his death.

makes sense...

[stateofdissipation]

Catelyn believes whatever child Lysa lost, was Jon's.., That means that Cat can only conclude that Lysa got pregnant after her marriage, and lost the child after her marriage, but before moving to the Eyrie, and later KL, because Hoster wouldn't have been there otherwise..

Catelyn has no idea that Lysa was no longer a virgin upon her marriage, so she can't conclude that it might have happened before.. Not without learning about Lysa and LF..

Catelyn believes whatever child Lysa lost, was Jon's.., That means that Cat can only conclude that Lysa got pregnant after her marriage, and lost the child after her marriage, but before moving to the Eyrie, and later KL, because Hoster wouldn't have been there otherwise..

Catelyn has no idea that Lysa was no longer a virgin upon her marriage, so she can't conclude that it might have happened before.. Not without learning about Lysa and LF..

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud and prickly about their honor. Lord Jon might have wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion and in the hopes of a son, but it would be hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling.--Catelyn

aSoS ss page 37

Riddle me that batman....

[Megaera]

You've still not explained the benefit to Jon of marrying a woman who was pregnant.

Marrying a woman who had been pregnant in the past is understandable - the benefit of knowing she can bear children outweighs the fact that she is 'spoiled' to a man that is desperate for an heir.

Marrying a woman who is unable to get pregnant with your child before you have to leave, and taking the gamble that you would survive the war, and she the abortion process intact to then start on making an heir is nonsensical.

[Nerevanin]

I believe in either of this two options:

1) Lysa was forced to take moon tea and her still developping and evolving body was unfortunately damaged so much by it that she had problems to carry a child ever since then.

2) Lysa was forced to take moon tea and abort a child of a man she loved. Later she was forced to marry an old man she despised. Whenever she got pregnant by him, she aborted the child with moon tea, refusing to carry a baby of a hated man while she had to give up on a baby of a man she truly loved. Why Sweetrobin lives then? Because he isn't Jon Arryn's but he is the son of Petyr Baelish. How? To me it's clear that Lysa and Littlefinger had an affair in King's Landing, I can't imagine how Littlefinger could possibly avoid it. Then there is the line in ASOS "after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me." which in my opinion proves it - all the years in KL they had to be careful not to be caught in flagranti, so she was going to fully enjoy it at her wedding. Lysa apparently knew the recipe of the moon tea, so it shouldn't be that hard for her to make it. After all, Asha mentions in ADWD that she makes it herself.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Catelyn believes whatever child Lysa lost, was Jon's.., That means that Cat can only conclude that Lysa got pregnant after her marriage, and lost the child after her marriage, but before moving to the Eyrie, and later KL, because Hoster wouldn't have been there otherwise..

Catelyn has no idea that Lysa was no longer a virgin upon her marriage, so she can't conclude that it might have happened before.. Not without learning about Lysa and LF..

Riddle me that batman....

Interesting...

Still, shortly below that

“You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.”

Suggests to me that Jon Arryn would have prefered it differently.

Still.. you have yet to explain to me why on earth Hoster would allow his daughter to remain pregnant for a period of roughly half a year, in order to eventually force a man who already had heirs (despite them not being sons), to marry his daughter, in return for aid in the war.

Had Jon Arryn been Hosters plan all along, wouldn't Lysa have been betrothed to Jon before the Battle of the Bells already?

Neither have you given a good explanation as to why no one, including Cat, Lysa's maids, and Jons lords, noticed Lysa's pregnant belly...

Doesn't it sound way more logical to you that Hoster simply discussed the matter with Jon, and had his maester add his voice to his as proof of Lysa's fertility?

We made a baby together, a precious little baby.” Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. “When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again.

“I gave you my maiden’s gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of permyroyal. It wasn’t me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me...”

“That’s past and done, Lysa. Lord Hoster’s dead, and his old maester as well.”

As they also seem to blame the maester, Hoster had a witness of sorts to Lysa's situation.. There was no need to keep her pregnant for six months, hoping that Jon Arryn would be in need of a new heir.

In addition, the app gives us this:

She grows to love her father's ward, Petyr Baelish, and on a night when Petyr had becomes drunk after learning that Brandon Stark is betrothed to Lysa's sister Catelyn, Lysa gives Petyr her maidenhead. Later, when Petyr is gravely injured in his duel with Brandon Stark, Lysa tends to his hurts and again sleeps with him. This time, she conceives a child. She reveals the pregnancy to her father in the belief that he will have to let her marry the banished Petyr, but instead Lord Tully forces her to drink moon tea to purge herself of the pregnancy. Lysa nearly dies from this.

[Megaera]

I believe in either of this two options:

1) Lysa was forced to take moon tea and her still developping and evolving body was unfortunately damaged so much by it that she had problems to carry a child ever since then.

2) Lysa was forced to take moon tea and abort a child of a man she loved. Later she was forced to marry an old man she despised. Whenever she got pregnant by him, she aborted the child with moon tea, refusing to carry a baby of a hated man while she had to give up on a baby of a man she truly loved. Why Sweetrobin lives then? Because he isn't Jon Arryn's but he is the son of Petyr Baelish. How? To me it's clear that Lysa and Littlefinger had an affair in King's Landing, I can't imagine how Littlefinger could possibly avoid it. Then there is the line in ASOS "after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me." which in my opinion proves it - all the years in KL they had to be careful not to be caught in flagranti, so she was going to fully enjoy it at her wedding. Lysa apparently knew the recipe of the moon tea, so it shouldn't be that hard for her to make it. After all, Asha mentions in ADWD that she makes it herself.

Yep, I can accept that Lysa could deliberately have aborted any children by Jon, actually, the fact that tansy can cause brain damage and Lysas descent into madness could potentially back this up. I can accept that LF and Lysa conducted an affair too. Not saying that I believe it, but its not implausible.