Did Lysa take her moon tea after she was married?

[stateofdissipation]

You've still not explained the benefit to Jon of marrying a woman who was pregnant.

Marrying a woman who had been pregnant in the past is understandable - the benefit of knowing she can bear children outweighs the fact that she is 'spoiled' to a man that is desperate for an heir.

Marrying a woman who is unable to get pregnant with your child before you have to leave, and taking the gamble that you would survive the war, and she the abortion process intact to then start on making an heir is nonsensical.

There is not a benefit of marrying a woman who was pregnant... which is why i did not explain it.

Jon was not desperate for an heir until his nephew died along with Brandon. That was not until after Littlefinger's duel and Lysa's conception. We do not have an indication of a rush to marry following the death of his second wife.

Hoster was desperate to marry his daughters to great lords or their heirs.... Brandon then Ned for Catelyn--- Jamie then Jon for Lysa. He banished his brother for refusing to marry a Redwyne...

Jon Arryn was in the driver's seat. Definitely in a position to make the demands in a brokered marriage with Hoster. It was a buyer's market.

The Arryns were proud and prickly about their honor--- as per Cat. This clashes with the need for a bride proven to be fertile.

If a young woman could be proven to be fertile, privately and wed as a maid.... there is no clash...

Jon requiring it or Hoster offering it makes no real difference...

Jon Arryn agreed to wed the maid Lysa if she was privately proven to be fertile. Lysa's pregnancy was that proof and Jon honored the agreement. When Jon left, Hoster privately disposed of the child.

this makes

Cat's conclusion of when Hoster comforted correct.

Hoster calling Lysa's abortion "dead" make sense.

Lysa's claim that "they" had "murdered" Littlefinger's son accurate

Lysa's claim that the duel with Brandon is not why Littlefinger was banished correct.

Hoster's excessive guilt over the incident make sense.

Hoster making his own moon tea make sense.

----- there is more but that seems enough for the moment.

[BitsOfBrains]

Is the argument being put forth that Lysa was purposely impregnated to prove to Jon Aryn that she could have children?

I gotta say i think thats ridiculous.

Hoster nor Jon were ever portrayed as villainous and getting your daughter/future wife knocked up by some random kid is stupid.

If Jon were demanding proof of Lysas fertility prior to marrying her and somehow Hoster were amicable to the idea JON WOULD HAVE DONE THE DEED HIMSELF.

Knowing Lysa could conceive was a point in her favor, but nothing more.

[Megaera]

No, the argument is that Lysa was still pregnant with LFs baby when she married Jon, Jon knew she was already pregnant, and the Hoster slipped her the moon tea to cause the abortion after Jon had left with Ned et al to carry on with roberts rebellion.

[Nerevanin]

No, the argument is that Lysa was still pregnant with LFs baby when she married Jon, Jon knew she was already pregnant, and the Hoster slipped her the moon tea to cause the abortion after Jon had left with Ned et al to carry on with roberts rebellion.

I doubt that she was pregnant. Her pregnancy proved that she was fertile which was what Jon needed. But what would the point of marrying a pregnant girl be? If she was pregnant already, she couldn't carry the baby of her husband. How fast was the wedding arranged? My guess is that once it was arranged (or maybe just days before the wedding) Hoster gave Lysa moon tea. It took some time to work, so during the wedding Lysa still believed that she was pregnant. Maybe Hoster would allow her to keep baby but that wasn't possible once Jon agreed to marry her.

The only thing that makes me wonder is time. Petyr slept with Lysa when Brandon was still alive. Then it took some time until Brandon arrived to Riverrun and the infamous duel happened. Then it took 2 weeks til Petyr was banished from Riverrun and Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father. Then it took some time until Brandon got killed in KL and until Ned arrived from Winterfell to RR to marry Catelyn. I'd say it's at least 4-5 months and that's me being very optimistic. that's a long time until Hoster decided to abort the baby. Also Lysa's belly most likely grew a bit during that time. How it is possible that no one noticed?

[stateofdissipation]

Interesting...

Still, shortly below that

“You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.”

Suggests to me that Jon Arryn would have prefered it differently.

Still.. you have yet to explain to me why on earth Hoster would allow his daughter to remain pregnant for a period of roughly half a year, in order to eventually force a man who already had heirs (despite them not being sons), to marry his daughter, in return for aid in the war.

Neither have you given a good explanation as to why no one, including Cat, Lysa's maids, and Jons lords, noticed Lysa's pregnant belly...

Doesn't it sound way more logical to you that Hoster simply discussed the matter with Jon, and had his maester add his voice to his as proof of Lysa's fertility?

We made a baby together, a precious little baby.” Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. “When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again.

“I gave you my maiden’s gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of permyroyal. It wasn’t me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me...”

“That’s past and done, Lysa. Lord Hoster’s dead, and his old maester as well.”

As they also seem to blame the maester, Hoster had a witness of sorts to Lysa's situation.. There was no need to keep her pregnant for six months, hoping that Jon Arryn would be in need of a new heir.

In addition, the app gives us this:

She grows to love her father's ward, Petyr Baelish, and on a night when Petyr had becomes drunk after learning that Brandon Stark is betrothed to Lysa's sister Catelyn, Lysa gives Petyr her maidenhead. Later, when Petyr is gravely injured in his duel with Brandon Stark, Lysa tends to his hurts and again sleeps with him. This time, she conceives a child. She reveals the pregnancy to her father in the belief that he will have to let her marry the banished Petyr, but instead Lord Tully forces her to drink moon tea to purge herself of the pregnancy. Lysa nearly dies from this.

Still.. you have yet to explain to me why on earth Hoster would allow his daughter to remain pregnant for a period of roughly half a year, in order to eventually force a man who already had heirs (despite them not being sons), to marry his daughter, in return for aid in the war.

Go back to before Lysa got pregnant...

Jon Arryn did not need a new wife or seem to want one.

Hoster was arranging marriages for his daughters to great lords. He secured Brandon for Cat and attempted to secure Jamie for Lysa. Jon Arryn was the only great lord left for Lysa....

--Long story short as all if it is already in this thread.

Hoster and Jon made a marriage contract for Lysa contingent on her being proven fertile privately while remaining a maid in public....

Hoster was honoring his old agreement rather than entering into a new one...

The Jon wed Lysa for to bind the Tullys to the rebellion is implicitly based on Aerys would spare the Tullys if one daughter married a traitor but it two did they were doomed.

The Stark wedding bound the Tullys to the rebellion... given the opposition, getting in any deeper really was not a possibility...

Had Jon Arryn been Hosters plan all along, wouldn't Lysa have been betrothed to Jon before the Battle of the Bells already?

The marriage contingent on Lysa's proven fertility would have had to happen pre-rebellion.

Neither have you given a good explanation as to why no one, including Cat, Lysa's maids, and Jons lords, noticed Lysa's pregnant belly...

Nor will I. There is not a scene where Cat saw Lysa naked or one of the bedding ceremony... I would only be adding my speculation on top of yours.... there is no end to it...

I will however share a link i got by googling "hiding pregnancy" the link is to a reliable news source containing a story and photos of model that is 8 months pregnant.. hard to believe..

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/can-you-believe-this-woman-is-8-months-pregnant/story-fnet08ck-1227250892030

Doesn't it sound way more logical to you that Hoster simply discussed the matter with Jon, and had his maester add his voice to his as proof of Lysa's fertility?

As they also seem to blame the maester, Hoster had a witness of sorts to Lysa's situation..

Would you take the word of a man willing agree to or offering to get his daughter pregnant, then abort the fetus as proof that he actually did it?

That would be kind of like buying a stolen car alarm.

The same hold's true of Hoster's Maester.

I always appreciate quotes thank you

There was no need to keep her pregnant for six months, hoping that Jon Arryn would be in need of a new heir.

The six months keeps coming up but I have still haven't seen a timeline that backs it up-

The scenario has the marriage to Lysa brokered pre-rebellion contingent on her being proven fertile. Hoster's marriage some months later is simply honoring the agreement. It is not contingent on later events

I do appreciate quotes.

I personally do not use the app. If it is a reliable search tool for finding information in the text, it is probably a useful tool. I do not recognize it as an authority. -- I tend to concentrate on what has happened rather than what will happen. Given the author's age and work pace.... it seems to me the best way to go.

The author has had thousands and thousands of pages to express his intent... they are the novels. If he was unable to get down what he meant to write there, there is no reason to believe he could do so in interviews, quotes, or articles.

[Megaera]

It was you that put forward the 5 months between the start of Roberts Rebellion and the Battle of the bells. I was just following your timeframe which would make Lysa 6 months pregnant.

Where are you getting 'a man willing to get his daughter pregnant' from? Hoster didn't have to get his daughter pregnant to prove to Jon that she was fertile - his word that she had been pregnant in the past would have been enough.

No lord would tell such a damaging thing about his own daughter to the man he wanted to marry her unless it was true and something that the man she was marrying was interested in.

You have yet to offer up a single piece of solid evidence that Lysa was pregnant at the time of her wedding and as this seems to be going round in circles I will now withdraw from this thread.

[stateofdissipation]

I doubt that she was pregnant. Her pregnancy proved that she was fertile which was what Jon needed. But what would the point of marrying a pregnant girl be? If she was pregnant already, she couldn't carry the baby of her husband. How fast was the wedding arranged? My guess is that once it was arranged (or maybe just days before the wedding) Hoster gave Lysa moon tea. It took some time to work, so during the wedding Lysa still believed that she was pregnant. Maybe Hoster would allow her to keep baby but that wasn't possible once Jon agreed to marry her.

The only thing that makes me wonder is time. Petyr slept with Lysa when Brandon was still alive. Then it took some time until Brandon arrived to Riverrun and the infamous duel happened. Then it took 2 weeks til Petyr was banished from Riverrun and Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father. Then it took some time until Brandon got killed in KL and until Ned arrived from Winterfell to RR to marry Catelyn. I'd say it's at least 4-5 months and that's me being very optimistic. that's a long time until Hoster decided to abort the baby. Also Lysa's belly most likely grew a bit during that time. How it is possible that no one noticed?

But what would the point of marrying a pregnant girl be?

No benefit in marrying a pregnant girl.

Jon married Lysa honoring the agreement to marry her if she was proven to be fertile. The agreement was made before Lysa became pregnant.

Proving her fertile could hardly be accomplished on the word of a man willing to have his daughter get pregnant and abort it to secure a marriage pact.

That would be like expecting a bank robber to declare the proceeds as income for the IRS.

If she was pregnant already, she couldn't carry the baby of her husband. How fast was the wedding arranged?

Not long after pregnant Lysa could be shown to Jon. and not long after either.

The only thing that makes me wonder is time. Petyr slept with Lysa when Brandon was still alive. Then it took some time until Brandon arrived to Riverrun and the infamous duel happened. Then it took 2 weeks til Petyr was banished from Riverrun and Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father.

According to Lysa, Petyr was not banished because of the duel. The only other thing we know Petyr did was get Lysa pregnant. That would mean Hoster knew Lysa was pregnant before Petyr was sent away.

Then it took some time until Brandon got killed in KL and until Ned arrived from Winterfell to RR to marry Catelyn. I'd say it's at least 4-5 months and that's me being very optimistic. that's a long time until Hoster decided to abort the baby.

If Petyr was banished for getting Lysa pregnant, Hoster knew Lysa was pregnant very early in her pregnancy. Had Hoster acted immediately, the moon tea would not induce something "dead" or "murdered"... and described as Petyr's son.--- That sounds 4-5 months at least.

Also Lysa's belly most likely grew a bit during that time. How it is possible that no one noticed?

Given the description of the abortion, that question could be asked whenever the abortion occurred.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But what would the point of marrying a pregnant girl be?

No benefit in marrying a pregnant girl.

Jon married Lysa honoring the agreement to marry her if she was proven to be fertile. The agreement was made before Lysa became pregnant.

Proving her fertile could hardly be accomplished on the word of a man willing to have his daughter get pregnant and abort it to secure a marriage pact.

That would be like expecting a bank robber to declare the proceeds as income for the IRS.

[snp]

Then it took some time until Brandon got killed in KL and until Ned arrived from Winterfell to RR to marry Catelyn. I'd say it's at least 4-5 months and that's me being very optimistic. that's a long time until Hoster decided to abort the baby.

If Petyr was banished for getting Lysa pregnant, Hoster knew Lysa was pregnant very early in her pregnancy. Had Hoster acted immediately, the moon tea would not induce something "dead" or "murdered"... and described as Petyr's son.--- That sounds 4-5 months at least.

There is nothing that proofs any agreement was made before Lysa got pregnant...

There are also no textual hints for Hoster wanting Lysa to get pregnant, just to marry her off to Jon Arryn, months and months before the actual betrothal.

If Hoster had had an agreement with Jon Arryn to get Lysa pregnant to proof her fertility, a marriage would have occured much and much sooner. Why wait? He's a sixty-something year old man..

As to Lysa's child... She was pregnant, and someone else made certain she was pregnant no more. Lysa sees that as murder, and it is understandable that she does.

[sciteacher]

The quotes below summarizes the events up the pregnancy and Lysa's marriage.

The first one is to show when in the timeline Littlefinger would definitely have known that Cat was betrothed to Brandon.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII
... the memory of another duel in another time came back to Catelyn Stark, as vivid as if it had been yesterday.
They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

If Lysa was not already pregnant by Littlefinger, there is clearly a two week window for that to happen after he is wounded in the duel. Well, as soon as the wound in his ribs healed a bit anyway.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII
That was the last time she had seen his face … until the day she was brought before him in King's Landing.
A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he'd been born.

And lastly, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was hastily arranged. And why would Jon Arryn want to marry Lysa after her abortion? Cat figures it out. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Hoster didn't need to "keep" Lysa pregnant, she just needed to known to be fertile. Anyone would have known the earlier a pregnancy was terminated the safer it would be for the mother. You wouldn't want to risk making her unable to carry a child or infertile with a late term abortion (unless her life were at risk).

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn I
If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides . . . Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue . . . a young wife known to be fertile.
Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth

.

Cat's final thought makes it seem so much more melancholy--No wonder Lysa pined after Littlefinger all those years.

[stateofdissipation]

There is nothing that proofs any agreement was made before Lysa got pregnant...

There are also no textual hints for Hoster wanting Lysa to get pregnant, just to marry her off to Jon Arryn, months and months before the actual betrothal.

If Hoster had had an agreement with Jon Arryn to get Lysa pregnant to proof her fertility, a marriage would have occured much and much sooner. Why wait? He's a sixty-something year old man..

As to Lysa's child... She was pregnant, and someone else made certain she was pregnant no more. Lysa sees that as murder, and it is understandable that she does.

There are also no textual hints for Hoster wanting Lysa to get pregnant, just to marry her off to Jon Arryn, months and months before the actual betrothal.

Hoster banished his brother for refusing to marry a Redwyne . His ambitions for his daughters were loftier. Hoster attempted to broker Lysa's marriage to the warden of the west. After Jamie became kingsguard in 281.... the remaining wardens or heir to the wardens for Lysa were Brandon, Jon, the 5 year old Garlan Tyrell, and the 10 year old imp.

After brokering Cat's marriage to Brandon. Hoster's remaining option for a eligible warden for Lysa was Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn's first two marriages had left him childless.

If Jon hoped to produce an heir, he needed a young wife proven to be fertile, Cat mentions the Arryns were proud and prickly about their honor. These were just as true in 282 as it was in 283.

In 282, Hoster had a young bride--Lysa in need suitable husband. Jon Arryn needed a young bride proven to be fertile while preserving his pride and honor.

-- a secret pregnancy and abortion would bridge that gap.... Jon could marry a maid in public... knowing her to be fertile. Hoster could marry Lysa to the only suitable husband available.

Lysa implies that Petyr was sent away because of her pregnancy rather than "that silly duel with Brandon."

That means Hoster knew of the pregnancy very early.

The abortion is called "dead" by Hoster and Petyrs murdered son by Lysa. Hoster tells she will have others... sweetbabes and trueborn too.--- that can be read as she will have other sweetbabes---

If both are correct--- there was a substantial delay between Hoster learning of the pregnancy and the abortion. The delay is substantial enough for the time Cat gives for what we know was the abortion as after Lysa's marriage to be possible.

There are clues... that things were not as they appeared.

If Hoster had had an agreement with Jon Arryn to get Lysa pregnant to proof her fertility, a marriage would have occured much and much sooner. Why wait? He's a sixty-something year old man..

How soon would it be before Jon could see the proof?

Around the time Lysa became pregnant, Brandon rode to King's Landing... setting off the chain of events that led to the rebellion. Jon was not necessarily free to go to Riverrun to see at the earliest possible sign.

Hoster's assurances that Lysa had been pregnant would be the assurances of a man that would do such a thing to his own daughter to secure a marriage.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And lastly, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was hastily arranged. And why would Jon Arryn want to marry Lysa after her abortion? Cat figures it out. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Hoster didn't need to "keep" Lysa pregnant, she just needed to known to be fertile.

That is crazy. Lysa was not some old maid, she was a teenager. It would have been accepted that she could have kids, she would not need to have a practice run at 15 to prove this.

Jon Arryn was old enough to be her grandfather. If there was a problem, it was more likely to be with him.

[A Bastard Snow]

You guys do realize that a girl not a maiden is considered damaged goods.....Hoster would never ever ever ever ever ever ever let someone know his daughter was shamed by someone especially by someone of low birth like LF.

You people really have not noticed anything from the books.

Even Cersei freaking Lannister is paraded naked through the streets for being wanton.She was only being punished for sleeping with men AFTER Robert died.

Just no.

Why do you think Gatehouse Ami had to marry a knight with no land or titles?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why do you think Gatehouse Ami had to marry a knight with no land or titles?

I agree with your point but Ami was about to marry Lancel despite her reputation.

You may be thinking of the Florent girl who was made to marry one of her fathers Household knights after she had Roberts bastard.

[stateofdissipation]

The quotes below summarizes the events up the pregnancy and Lysa's marriage.

The first one is to show when in the timeline Littlefinger would definitely have known that Cat was betrothed to Brandon.

If Lysa was not already pregnant by Littlefinger, there is clearly a two week window for that to happen after he is wounded in the duel. Well, as soon as the wound in his ribs healed a bit anyway.

And lastly, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was hastily arranged. And why would Jon Arryn want to marry Lysa after her abortion? Cat figures it out. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Hoster didn't need to "keep" Lysa pregnant, she just needed to known to be fertile. Anyone would have known the earlier a pregnancy was terminated the safer it would be for the mother. You wouldn't want to risk making her unable to carry a child or infertile with a late term abortion (unless her life were at risk).

.

Cat's final thought makes it seem so much more melancholy--No wonder Lysa pined after Littlefinger all those years.

I always appreciate quotes...

And lastly, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was hastily arranged.

Lysa was pregnant, that was not common knowledge, if it continued much longer it would be. That is also reason for a hastily arranged marriage

And why would Jon Arryn want to marry Lysa after her abortion?

--- from the quotes it was soiled... not virginal... not necessarily pregnant. Cat places what we would term the abortion as after the marriage.

Cat figures it out. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

That one I cannot make heads or tails of...

Cat was betrothed to Brandon and then to Ned-- after the rebellion.

Does Cat not believe that the "swords and spears of House Tully" are not already tied to the rebellion?

Does Cat believe that Jon Arryn's cause and Ned*s cause are not one and the same?

Does Cat believe that the House Tully would survive if Aerys put down the rebellion and she was the only one that had married a traitor?

Can you figure any way that Cat's conclusion makes sense?

Hoster didn't need to "keep" Lysa pregnant, she just needed to known to be fertile.

In 282 or 283?

If the marriage was brokered In 283 known to be fertile was sufficient... a lucky coincidence.

In 282 before her pregnancy-- she would need to be kept pregnant to prove she was fertile. If proven fertility is a requirement for the marriage to a virgin.... the father's word that it was done and aborted would not quite cut it. In that case seeing is believing...

Anyone would have known the earlier a pregnancy was terminated the safer it would be for the mother.

You wouldn't want to risk making her unable to carry a child or infertile with a late term abortion (unless her life were at risk).

The abortion described, does not appear to be an early term abortion.

Lysa's tale is rather melancholy

[stateofdissipation]

You guys do realize that a girl not a maiden is considered damaged goods.....Hoster would never ever ever ever ever ever ever let someone know his daughter was shamed by someone especially by someone of low birth like LF.

You people really have not noticed anything from the books.

Even Cersei freaking Lannister is paraded naked through the streets for being wanton.She was only being punished for sleeping with men AFTER Robert died.

Just no.

Why do you think Gatehouse Ami had to marry a knight with no land or titles?

You guys do realize that a girl not a maiden is considered damaged goods.....Hoster would never ever ever ever ever ever ever let someone know his daughter was shamed by someone especially by someone of low birth like LF.

Never ever,,, say never ever

Father( Hoster) said I should thank the gods that such a great lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled.--Lysa aSoS bg page 537

[A Bastard Snow]

You guys do realize that a girl not a maiden is considered damaged goods.....Hoster would never ever ever ever ever ever ever let someone know his daughter was shamed by someone especially by someone of low birth like LF.

Never ever,,, say never ever

Father( Hoster) said I should thank the gods that such a great lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled.--Lysa aSoS bg page 537

That quote does not imply he knew....Hoster is saying she should be thankful that the gods saw fit to give her such a match...he was shaming her.

Also the match with Lancel and Ami was for Darry Tywin wanted the lands as the heir to Darry is gone and Ami is related to them as such she claims the lands.

[Winter Rose Crown]

What is the point of asking questions if you're not going to accept that you may be wrong? Lysa had a first trimester abortions with LF's baby. At 6 months (or 24 weeks) it isn't a miscarriage, it is a still birth. At that point, he may as well have let her have the baby and send it off to live somewhere. She's more than halfway through her pregnancy, the damage is done.

[Victor227]

For her to be pregnant that long, no maester would recommend an abortion. Hoster was trying to marry his daughter off, not murder her. Such a plan would be ridiculously chancy as well. All it would take is word to slip out and all of a sudden Lysa would be publicly tainted in the eyes of the general populace. Finally, and this is an important one. When she did get pregnant, Littlefinger was near-comatose. He even -thinks- its Catelyn. Lysa for all intents and purposes raped him.

You really think Hoster would go to the half-dead Littlefnger, tell him to knock up his daughter so she could be proven fertile to Jon Arryn, and then take his exile like a good little boy?

I prefer the simpler explanation, as while Hoster was a jerk, I don't think he'd willingly go through a process where there's a fair chance Lysa would die just to prove to an old man that she could bear children by having her stay pregnant half a year, when the default assumption of a flowered maiden is that she can. The way everyone phrases it is that she's sullied, and Hoster pushed her on Jon Arryn as the price for Tully support. As is, things like Moon Tea are not perfect. It's perfectly plausible that Lysa suffered a bad reaction to it being used to spur an abortion even early-term.

Likewise, assuming Lysa was using Moon Tea for contraceptive purposes during her marriage with Jon Arryn, then why would there be a string of stillbirths? That is, unless she was waiting until she was sure she was pregnant, then using it to self-destructively cause abortions even after her initial experience with the stuff, which was apparently horrific.

[stateofdissipation]

For her to be pregnant that long, no maester would recommend an abortion. Hoster was trying to marry his daughter off, not murder her. Such a plan would be ridiculously chancy as well. All it would take is word to slip out and all of a sudden Lysa would be publicly tainted in the eyes of the general populace. Finally, and this is an important one. When she did get pregnant, Littlefinger was near-comatose. He even -thinks- its Catelyn. Lysa for all intents and purposes raped him.

You really think Hoster would go to the half-dead Littlefnger, tell him to knock up his daughter so she could be proven fertile to Jon Arryn, and then take his exile like a good little boy?

I prefer the simpler explanation, as while Hoster was a jerk, I don't think he'd willingly go through a process where there's a fair chance Lysa would die just to prove to an old man that she could bear children by having her stay pregnant half a year, when the default assumption of a flowered maiden is that she can. The way everyone phrases it is that she's sullied, and Hoster pushed her on Jon Arryn as the price for Tully support. As is, things like Moon Tea are not perfect. It's perfectly plausible that Lysa suffered a bad reaction to it being used to spur an abortion even early-term.

Likewise, assuming Lysa was using Moon Tea for contraceptive purposes during her marriage with Jon Arryn, then why would there be a string of stillbirths? That is, unless she was waiting until she was sure she was pregnant, then using it to self-destructively cause abortions even after her initial experience with the stuff, which was apparently horrific.

For her to be pregnant that long, no maester would recommend an abortion. Hoster was trying to marry his daughter off, not murder her.

-----As is, things like Moon Tea are not perfect. It's perfectly plausible that Lysa suffered a bad reaction to it being used to spur an abortion even early-term.

"Forgive me" he said so softly she could scarcely hear the words. "Tansy.... blood... the blood... gods be kind..."

aSoS Catelyn I

Lord Hoster groaned. "Dead," his hand groped for hers. " You'll have others... sweetbabes and trueborn"

aSoS Catelyn I

I would have given you a son too but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal.---Lysa to Littlefinger.

aSoS Sansa VII

Lysa put her hands flat on her belly as if the child were still there.

aSoS Sansa VII

No maester should have recommended the abortion described. Regardless of intent, Hoster nearly killed her.

Dead, sweetbabes, son, murdered, child... hardly sound like a bad reaction to moon tea in the first stages of pregnancy.

When she did get pregnant, Littlefinger was near-comatose. He even -thinks- its Catelyn. Lysa for all intents and purposes raped him.

Accepting that Lysa got pregnant from their first encounter, Lets look at when Hoster learned of it.

If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets. That is what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thinks it It was because of that silly duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I should thank the gods that a lord so great as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother. aSoS Sansa VII

Hoster was aware of Lysa's pregnancy before he was sent to the Fingers two weeks after his duel.

You really think Hoster would go to the half-dead Littlefnger, tell him to knock up his daughter so she could be proven fertile to Jon Arryn, and then take his exile like a good little boy?

I don not think Hoster gave him instructions either... no "faster Petyr !"or the like. I do know Hoster provided an opportunity.

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed, Lysa helped their maester nurse him.

I prefer the simpler explanation, as while Hoster was a jerk, I don't think he'd willingly go through a process where there's a fair chance Lysa would die

Hoster did willingly go through a process where Lysa almost died.

just to prove to an old man that she could bear children

The old man was the only eligible Warden or heir available for Lysa after Jamie joined the KG. The remaining were a 5 year old Tyrell, the imp at 10, and betrothed Brandon.

by having her stay pregnant half a year,

The half a year is an interesting timeline that goes through here... The maximum it could have been is a half a year... The war lasted less than two years... we have 1 year accounted for-- the year Ned spent away from Cat--

The war had lasted almost a year at the sack of King's Landing--- after we have Ned's trip south and back to Winterfell.

Start--- Battle of the Bells-- King's Landing--war in the south and return to Winterfell

I-------------- 1 year as per Cat--------------------------------------I

I--------- 1 year as per Ned----------------------I

From the start to the battle of the bells is the same as the war in the south and return to Winterfell----

at 6 months each the war lasted 2 years---

when the default assumption of a flowered maiden is that she can.

Jon's first two wives had left him childless. The default assumption had failed him twice before. At his age, the third marriage would likely be the last.

The way everyone phrases it is that she's sullied, and Hoster pushed her on Jon Arryn as the price for Tully support.

Everyone thinks it It (banishing Petyr) was because of that silly duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I should thank the gods that a lord so great as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother. aSoS Sansa VII

The Stark marriage bound the Tully house to the rebellion. After the rebellion Stark support equals Arryn support.

Arryn wanted Tully swords.fine.... It would have to be at a time before the Arryns and Tullys were not already bound in the cause for survival.-- Alternatively, Hoster and Jon Arrym believed that Aerys would let house Tully survive after its marriage to one traitor but two would seal their doom.-

Lysa's marriage bound the Tully house to the rebellion if Arryn's marriage had been agreed before Ned's betrothal to Cat.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Nowhere is it stated that Hoster send LF away from Riverrun because Lysa was pregnant. Catelyn believes it was because of the duel, Lysa says it wasn't.. She doesn't say it was because of the pregnancy, though.. we have a semi-canon source confirmed 1) that it was the second time they slept together (LF's fortnight after the duel) where Lysa got pregnant and 2) that it was Lysa who revealed her pregnancy, only after LF had been send away..

For all we know, Lysa believes LF was send away because he was getting too close to Lysa in Hosters eyes... while Hoster might not have suspected a thing..

Further, SOD, within a few lines in post #79 you seem to suggest that Lysa got pregnant during their first enouncter (while we have a semi-canon sources stating the exact opposite), and that Hoster provided the oppertunity.. during the second encounter... It can only be one or the other.. not both.

Nor is it stated or suggested anywhere that Hoster wanted a Warden, or future Warden, and nothing else for his children. If he had wanted that, he would have married Lysa to Elbert Arryn some time ago.. He had been Jon's heir for long years, and there was nothing that was going to change that.