Heresy 170

[Black Crow]

OH!!! lol But what does Theon know about Lyanna other then her being "kidnapped" and "raped" so how reliable are his dreams when it comes to us trying to piece together what happened to her?

Not a lot, at first sight, but GRRM chose to write it that way and its worth going back to basics on this, ie; strip away everything we think we know or speculate about and we're actually given very little in the text.

Apart from Lord Eddard's fever dream we are presented with two competing images. There's the love story which very largely comes from Danaerys and Baristan, but there are problems here in that Danaerys wasn't around and nor, really was Baristan. I can't recall exactly where it was in order to quote it but Trouserless Bob does complain about the ballad singers and how their romantic version will be remembered when he and the truth are forgotten, and that I suspect may be a warning that the love story which Danaerys "knows" comes from those songs.

Conversely Theon is interesting in that he's older than Danaerys and that until the Greyjoy Rebellion was brought up on Pyke and may therefore have been exposed to another telling of the tale of the Lord Stark's daughter that involved neither Robert's ranting nor the sad songs of star-crossed lovers. It may be the old joke about paranoia; just because Trouserless Bob continually complains that Lyanna was raped it doesn't mean that she wasn't.

At the end of the day the dream was written by GRRM so why was she included?

[Black Crow]

Hello Heretics, long time no log on..... :)

Also, some here may recall that I'm a huge fan of the "Lyanna died violently" theory and might remember my post about Theon's dream and the Role Call of the Slain. This, plus all of GRRM's very Catholicky Christ-on-the-Cross imagery surrounding Lyanna (sad eyes, weeping blood, crown of roses with hidden thorns, white gown spattered with gore, etc), leads me to believe that Lyanna's fate wasn't nearly so neat or romantic as some make it out to be.

Good to see you back. The statue weeping tears of blood is indeed a very Catholic image and whether you look to that for GRRM's inspiration [and he isn't shy of invoking his Catholic upbringing] or the folklore/mediaeval justice imagery, something isn't right.

[Black Crow]

I can't quite recall the wording of the passage but doesn't Lord Eddard at one point reflect on promises made but not kept?

Got it:

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

Blood and broken promises doesn't quite fit with the usual version.

[addicted to snow]

Got it:

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

Blood and broken promises doesn't quite fit with the usual version.

This is correct... Hardcore RLJ'ers get defensive when you bring this up... If Ned's Promise was to take care of Jon, then how is it that now considers this promise as being broken???

More likely the story is more complex than we know & the death of Dany (Ned thought that Dany was dead) is what leads Ned to consider his promise broken...

Ned gets incredibly angry every time Dany is brought up...

[Siro314]

So, Lyanna pleads with Ned: "Promise me...etc", after a possible/likely traumatic event that ends with her dying, splattered with blood and gore (if we buy into Theon's dream, which I do). This may have happened at the ToJ (possible, but unlikely) or perhaps in Starfall (eh, more likely). Maybe a baby was present? No mention, at all, but also probable considering all the nonsense involving Rhaegar and prophecy and RLJ, blah blah blah.

So my question is: What was the promise Lyanna asked for? And this has most likely already been discussed I believe. What are the realistic options?

1) Raise baby Jon as a Stark, even though he is the devil spawn of that asshole Rhaegar and I. Oh, and don't tell anyone. Even Catelyn, your wife. This way she can resent you forever believing he is YOUR bastard.

2) Baby Jon is actually the child of Ser Arthur Dayne and I. But still lie to Catelyn/Winterfell/7Kingdoms forever claiming he's your bastard. (Uh, why?)

3) Don't tell anyone he is Our child, Ned. Cuz that shit is just Targaryen weird. (maybe my favorite, twisted theory)

4) Don't tell anyone an Other had his way with me. (Nope, not buying it)

5) Promise to bury me in the crypts. (What? Why? Who gives a shit? You're dead.)

6) This baby is actually a switcheroo of Ashara Dayne and Your seed, and not actually mine at all. But keep it a secret for above stated reasons..? (Ouch, my head hurts)

There may be plenty more suspected promises than the simple ones listed above, no doubt. But the important thing is that Ned specifically recalls breaking a promise to Lyanna. But which one did he break? None of the above really fit, no?

[Gomagoti]

îs it possible the promise had nothing to do with babies?are there any alternatives?

[TheSmallOther]

îs it possible the promise had nothing to do with babies?are there any alternatives?

Of course it's possible. But there no clear hints in the text regarding these promises. Including babies, too.

And a small but important fix: Ned made not a single promise, but more.

He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

[Black Crow]

So, Lyanna pleads with Ned: "Promise me...etc", after a possible/likely traumatic event that ends with her dying, splattered with blood and gore (if we buy into Theon's dream, which I do). This may have happened at the ToJ (possible, but unlikely) or perhaps in Starfall (eh, more likely). Maybe a baby was present? No mention, at all, but also probable considering all the nonsense involving Rhaegar and prophecy and RLJ, blah blah blah.

So my question is: What was the promise Lyanna asked for? And this has most likely already been discussed I believe. What are the realistic options?

1) Raise baby Jon as a Stark, even though he is the devil spawn of that asshole Rhaegar and I. Oh, and don't tell anyone. Even Catelyn, your wife. This way she can resent you forever believing he is YOUR bastard.

2) Baby Jon is actually the child of Ser Arthur Dayne and I. But still lie to Catelyn/Winterfell/7Kingdoms forever claiming he's your bastard. (Uh, why?)

3) Don't tell anyone he is Our child, Ned. Cuz that shit is just Targaryen weird. (maybe my favorite, twisted theory)

4) Don't tell anyone an Other had his way with me. (Nope, not buying it)

5) Promise to bury me in the crypts. (What? Why? Who gives a shit? You're dead.)

6) This baby is actually a switcheroo of Ashara Dayne and Your seed, and not actually mine at all. But keep it a secret for above stated reasons..? (Ouch, my head hurts)

There may be plenty more suspected promises than the simple ones listed above, no doubt. But the important thing is that Ned specifically recalls breaking a promise to Lyanna. But which one did he break? None of the above really fit, no?

Welcome to Heresy.

I think that we can safely assume that Lord Eddard was not asked to promise to place Jon on the Iron Throne :devil:

[Knight and Dayne]

Heresy is cool. I'm gonna dive in!

I'm finding the Lyanna-as-Christ imagery strangely compelling. We also have the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer. Both evoke a redemption/destruction of evil theme. I don't think it's so straightforward, but the parallels are worth discussing.

Christ dies and humanity is freed from the shackles of sin - in Catholicism, sin is understood as distance from God, who is the source of light. Azor Ahai (supposedly!) uses Lightbringer to end the long night. What do we get from a sacrificed Lyanna? Baby Jon? Baby Dany? A chain of events that will save Westeros from the undead hordes?

What if the sacrifice failed? Inversion of tropes is a GRRM specialty, and the aftermath of the TOJ is not a united Westeros ready to defend the Wall from the Others. Ned's broken promise might indicate that all the prophetic redemptive tropes that have been circling since ACoK have been compromised, and the players are scrambling to find a way to rearrange the pieces.

It's pretty clear from his behavior that Ned was not a man who believed the apocalypse was nigh. Sure, winter is coming, but he got caught up in the game of thrones for his friend Bob and his family, not to unite the kingdom and defend the wall. Whatever the stakes of the promise were, Ned was either unaware or willfully ignorant.

I guess we just have to wait for a deus ex Crannogman to sort it all out...

[TheSmallOther]

Christ dies and humanity is freed from the shackles of sin - in Catholicism, sin is understood as distance from God, who is the source of light. Azor Ahai (supposedly!) uses Lightbringer to end the long night. What do we get from a sacrificed Lyanna? Baby Jon? Baby Dany? A chain of events that will save Westeros from the undead hordes?

Well, the answer itself is in your question.

<start_of_crackpot>

What have we got from Christ? Ability to enter the heaven :bowdown: :commie: :commie: :commie: :bowdown: . As you may remember, Adam and Eve have been banished from heaven and human souls had to reside in hell. Now, is there any heaven in ASOAIF? I haven't heard of one. But we do know about frozen hell, reserved for Starks, also there are seven hells mentioned by Faith. So simple conclusion here is: heaven is coming into ASOAIF.

<end_of_crackpot>

[Yield.]

Missed this nice catch!! I know of 3 "blood weeping girl/lady" vengeful Ghost stories. One is La Llorona and she actually drowns her children and kills herself after what she did.She was wronged by a lover and decided to spite him she was going to kill his children and herself.

That sounds awfully like Medea.

I sincerly believe the Crown was a mockery of Lyanna as a virgin. Black Crow's little jape about "promise me that Rhaegar died screaming" is not only plausible but i think its part of what happened.Rhaegar was a douche on that day and took things a bit to far.

Yep I think so too. I remember when BC made that joke and it has merit.

[Sly Wren]

Heresy is cool. I'm gonna dive in!

Amen!

I'm finding the Lyanna-as-Christ imagery strangely compelling. We also have the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer. Both evoke a redemption/destruction of evil theme. I don't think it's so straightforward, but the parallels are worth discussing.

Christ dies and humanity is freed from the shackles of sin - in Catholicism, sin is understood as distance from God, who is the source of light. Azor Ahai (supposedly!) uses Lightbringer to end the long night. What do we get from a sacrificed Lyanna? Baby Jon? Baby Dany? A chain of events that will save Westeros from the undead hordes?

What if the sacrifice failed? Inversion of tropes is a GRRM specialty, and the aftermath of the TOJ is not a united Westeros ready to defend the Wall from the Others. Ned's broken promise might indicate that all the prophetic redemptive tropes that have been circling since ACoK have been compromised, and the players are scrambling to find a way to rearrange the pieces.

It's pretty clear from his behavior that Ned was not a man who believed the apocalypse was nigh. Sure, winter is coming, but he got caught up in the game of thrones for his friend Bob and his family, not to unite the kingdom and defend the wall. Whatever the stakes of the promise were, Ned was either unaware or willfully ignorant.

Agree on the potential sacrifice imagery--though Wolfmaid's ideas of revenge and BC's on cruentation are also definitely very workable.

But if going with Catholic imagery--thinking Lyanna is much more Mary--right down to the blue (tie into Catholic imagery of Mary--Mary's almost always in blue in medieval and renaissance art) and potential arguments that Rhaegar was mocking her.

This might mean that the sacrifice is either impending (Jon) or two-fold (Lyanna then Jon). The idea that this was a twisted version of finding a savior--"Mary" as unwilling vs. New Testament Mary--creeps me out. But it works.

<start_of_crackpot>

What have we got from Christ? Ability to enter the heaven :bowdown: :commie: :commie: :commie: :bowdown: . As you may remember, Adam and Eve have been banished from heaven and human souls had to reside in hell. Now, is there any heaven in ASOAIF? I haven't heard of one. But we do know about frozen hell, reserved for Starks, also there are seven hells mentioned by Faith. So simple conclusion here is: heaven is coming into ASOAIF.

<end_of_crackpot>

Crackpot or no--the idea that Rhaegar may have been chasing this--an idea of salvation--totally works.

[Yield.]

Actually only tangentially tied to either of these--Coleridge did read plenty of Greek myth. And the poem is based on a historical description of an garden built by Kublai Khan. So, I won't be remotely offended if you find the following to be drivel.

Am thinking two things re: Coleridge:

Thing One. Leaf clearly references Coleridge's poem when she talks about the caverns that even the Children haven't fully explored and that lead down to a sunless sea. Coleridge's language: "Where Alph, the sacred river, ran / Through caverns measureless to man / Down to a sunless sea."

Based in part on Lord Ravenstark's point on previous thread re: Bloodraven seeing darkness as power, am wondering if Martin is portraying the "caverns measureless to man" as the source of BR's power. Maybe even the "cauldron" (to really mix the metaphors) which is potentially producing wights. In the poem, the sacred river flows through a walled garden (full of holy trees) through a chasm in the earth: "A savage place! as holy and enchanted / as e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted/ by woman wailing for her demon lover."

19th century poetry language aside, the chasm forces up a fountain--imagery ties it to "seed" but it's also stone. Screws up the "sacred river" in some way. So when the sacred river finally reaches the "caverns measureless to man" to sink into the sunless sea: "And mid this tumult Kubla heard from far / ancestral voices prophesying war."

All of this is built by Kubla Kahn: "a miracle of rare device. A sunny pleasure dome with caves of ice."

Coleridge's poem is more symbol than argument. And he was on a LOT of opium. Plus, as I said on the previous thread, am not sure if Leaf is just warning Bran and the Scoobies to stay out of the scary caverns. But the theory that the cave might be tied to the production of all the Winter--Maritn's clear use of Coleridge's imagery from a highly anthologized poem seems to support the theory.

Thing Two: Back to the psyche of Bloodraven. Were debating just how Kurtz-y he actually is. Would argue that with the Coleridge reference, Martin may also be saying that BR is the brilliant, misunderstood visionary--which is how Coleridge's speaker portrays himself. Coleridge says that if he as poet was inspired by song and actually built the sunny dome with caves of ice, he would be both revered and dreaded, isolated and protected: "weave a circle round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread, for he on honeydew hath fed, and drunk the milk of paradise."

Fits with Coldhands' calling BR a dreamer, with BR's insistence on the rarity of greenseers, and with Leaf's language. Plus all the fear of the poet-prophet in Coleridge's poem could tie in with the question of whether or not all the Children agree with BR's ideas or if this clan is different, following the "true" idea.

Bottom line: I like BR as Kurtz. But also like him as the isolated visionary, caught up in his own brilliance. Fits with the quote Ravenstark brought up re: BR saying the darkness is power: he's misunderstood. Must work in darkness. Only he has figured out how to marry the power of the sun and the ice--etc.

Sum Up: As I said, Coleridge's poem is more symbol than argument. So might just be imagery Martin is playing with. But might point to other things, too.

Here's the text of the poem if you want to take a look, or refresh your memory from high school. And if you're thinking, "what the hell was this guy on?" the answer is opium. Lots and lots of opium.

Kubla Khan

Or, a vision in a dream. A Fragment.

By Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground

With walls and towers were girdled round;

And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;

And here were forests ancient as the hills,

Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted

Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!

A savage place! as holy and enchanted

As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted

By woman wailing for her demon-lover!

And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,

As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,

A mighty fountain momently was forced:

Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst

Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,

Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:

And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever

It flung up momently the sacred river.

Five miles meandering with a mazy motion

Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,

Then reached the caverns measureless to man,

And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean;

And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far

Ancestral voices prophesying war!

The shadow of the dome of pleasure

Floated midway on the waves;

Where was heard the mingled measure

From the fountain and the caves.

It was a miracle of rare device,

A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer

In a vision once I saw:

It was an Abyssinian maid

And on her dulcimer she played,

Singing of Mount Abora.

Could I revive within me

Her symphony and song,

To such a deep delight ’twould win me,

That with music loud and long,

I would build that dome in air,

That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

And all who heard should see them there,

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

His flashing eyes, his floating hair!

Weave a circle round him thrice,

And close your eyes with holy dread

For he on honey-dew hath fed,

And drunk the milk of Paradise.

I like this.

Yes it definitely is Martin doing his homage thing to Coleridge. There is quite a bit in the poem itself that also points to other parts of Dance. The river imagery I bolded (within the spoiler tag) is reminiscent of Tyrion's journey through the Sorrows. There could be more to it than just parallels or meeting up of imagery.

Your points on BR being the lonely genius has merit I think. Not just in the comparison to Coleridge, but also to Kublai Khan. He's saying that Khan built this paradise to enclose something sacred. Something that he saw and tried to contain with his 10 mile fence. That it fell apart and is now a ruin speaks to Khan's over reaching himself. As if he's saying that there are somethings man should not mess with. Or even are too big for man to contain. If we apply that to Bloodraven then the message seems pretty clear. He may believe he is this clever man holding it all together but ultimately all his work will fall to ruin.

I also like the dichotomy of having sun and ice in the same place. Again it's that combination of opposites that fascinates me about how a Targ ended up in a cold place. And yes I can see how the depths of the cavern points to the source of wightification. Possibly even needing a combination of elements for it occur.

There is quite a bit there of the elements (earth, water, wood) and when you point them out it seems almost silly not to have talked about it before.

[e1kabong]

I have to jump in and be a wet blanket on the "promise me that Rhaegar died screaming" stuff. While a funny perspective, let's keep in mind that Rhaegar was already dead at this point and King's Landing sacked (whether or not you believe that Lyanna was at ToJ or Starfall). Why would Lyanna make Ned swear a vengeance oath against a man who is already dead and a dynasty that's already been smashed?

It also just doesn't make sense thematically with Ned's internal monologues about the promise(s). From Ned's POV, the distinct sense is that, whatever promises he made, it cost him personally. What cost is there for a promise that was already completed before it was even sworn?

I'm all for tinfoil hat theories and alternative ideas to the promise, but the idea that Lyanna made Ned swear some sort of oath of vengeance is a real non-starter for me.

[Knight and Dayne]

Amen!

Agree on the potential sacrifice imagery--though Wolfmaid's ideas of revenge and BC's on cruentation are also definitely very workable.

But if going with Catholic imagery--thinking Lyanna is much more Mary--right down to the blue (tie into Catholic imagery of Mary--Mary's almost always in blue in medieval and renaissance art) and potential arguments that Rhaegar was mocking her.

This might mean that the sacrifice is either impending (Jon) or two-fold (Lyanna then Jon). The idea that this was a twisted version of finding a savior--"Mary" as unwilling vs. New Testament Mary--creeps me out. But it works.

You've given me a missing piece of the "failed sacrifice" version of the story. Lyanna learns her child was meant to be a sacrifice, and sacrifices herself instead. There's a lot of ways that could play out - maybe she starts the conflict when Ned arrives, maybe Ned or the KG's pick a fight and she gets wounded during it, maybe something else entirely. The point is, Lyanna's dying request would be to let the child be raised apart from its assumed destiny.

Basically, its "The Last Temptation of Christ" from the perspective of Mary.

[Yield.]

Its interesting that another argument wrapped up in the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory holds that as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Jon embodies both Ice and Fire and is therefore the key to the resolution of the business. Yet if we treat Ice and Fire metaphorically rather than literally and interpret them as opposed extremes then we find Bloodraven as the son of a Targaryen and a Blackwood also embodying the two - the old gods and the new perhaps - and its not a pretty sight.

Hmm now you mention it so were all of Egg's children. He married a Blackwood. And then subsequently through Rhaella so are all the Baratheons. So if it's simply a matter of the correct bloodlines then we have quite a few to choose from when you take into account Trouserless Bob and his remaining brood.

[Yield.]

I agree... & I understand that childbirth can be bloody, but I sorta doubt that it is ever described as "spattered gore"...

I mean, what part of childbirth results in blood-spatter?

Only thing I can think of is a badly performed caesarian section. But not sure we've ever even heard of them happening in-verse let alone a badly done one.

Not unless one's vagina is unbelievebly tight during, with blood and baby moving at great speed forced by a piston toward the opening which refuses to dilate and the baby is canon balled from the vagina across the room depositing blood in its wake.

I have seen babies born in the Congo,Ethiopia and Kenya in conditions that aren't mordern just village midwives being observed and aided to ensure maternal and child mortality decreases per Millenium Development Goal # 5 from WHO.

I've yet to see any mother "Spattered with gore" even the most basic of nursing skills performed by a midwife in less that modern surroundings didn't result in that.

:ack: Thanks Wolfy that made my morning coffee go down a treat. :kiss:

[Yield.]

Oh no. Am thinking of Yield's idea on previous thread that the show runners might read y'all's posts and get ideas for the show. Please, mummers. Please, please, please--DON'T USE THIS!!!!

And I second SerWalter--this is amazing!!!!

+1 to both of these

[Black Crow]

I have to jump in and be a wet blanket on the "promise me that Rhaegar died screaming" stuff. While a funny perspective, let's keep in mind that Rhaegar was already dead at this point and King's Landing sacked (whether or not you believe that Lyanna was at ToJ or Starfall). Why would Lyanna make Ned swear a vengeance oath against a man who is already dead and a dynasty that's already been smashed?

It also just doesn't make sense thematically with Ned's internal monologues about the promise(s). From Ned's POV, the distinct sense is that, whatever promises he made, it cost him personally. What cost is there for a promise that was already completed before it was even sworn?

I'm all for tinfoil hat theories and alternative ideas to the promise, but the idea that Lyanna made Ned swear some sort of oath of vengeance is a real non-starter for me.

Not necessarily, assuming that scene occurred around the time of the rencounter by the tower, Lyanna probably did know Rhaegar was dead, but if wronged might still want reassurance that he had died horribly. I've never suggested it was a vengeance oath - after all "died" is in the past tense.

Its also a joke, yes, but its a possibility that should be borne in mind given all the other imagery rather than blindly following the notion of star-crossed lovers

[Black Crow]

Hmm now you mention it so were all of Egg's children. He married a Blackwood. And then subsequently through Rhaella so are all the Baratheons. So if it's simply a matter of the correct bloodlines then we have quite a few to choose from when you take into account Trouserless Bob and his remaining brood.

Indeed and the point of that is that in metaphysical terms even if R+L=J is true, Jon aint as special let alone unique as some are suggesting.