Why is the world so empty?

[Greg B]

ASOIAF is character-driven. Martin (who isn't a great world-builder to start with) has more pressing priorities.

I guess it depends on your criteria for "great world-building," but yes, we know he's a "pantser" (in writing parlance): he has a story spine and likely some major milestones in mind, but otherwise his story develops organically as he writes it. Why people insist that he ever did any rigorous world-building, I have no idea, since we have so much evidence to the contrary. GRRM created the setting details that suited his story as he wrote it, and in general, he seems least concerned with the details related to numbers -- populations, dimensions, distances, time, etc. I think it's an incredibly rich world, but it has as much logical consistency or representational accuracy as a Cubist painting. (Cubism is probably a terrible analogy; better Romanticism, I imagine.)

[BossMan]

Maybe no one wants to live there? That sounds reasonable.

[FoolishOwl]

Come to think of it, there are a couple times when Asha Greyjoy contemplates leaving the Ironborn and settling an uninhabited peninsula in the North, that is rich with game and timber. And I had to wonder why, if it was so attractive and readily accessible by ship, it wasn't settled already.

For that matter, why isn't anyone living in the Gift, south of the Wall?

[TheLightning Lord]

How do we know Essos is empty?

[Rippounet]

How do we know Essos is empty?

Yep. Silly question, but doesn't Tyrion see people on his way to Volantis? I remember him making a face and scaring a young girl at some point. Doesn't this show that there are actually villages and farms here and there?

[Greymoon]

You want a great empire with an old history? Sarnor controlled the northern 40% or so of what's now the Dothraki Sea. They were fighting Ghis long before Valyria existed, which makes them well over 5000 years old. One of their cities was the second largest city west of the Bone Mountains (which means larger than Volantis, which apparently has nearly a million people). They had a trading network along rivers, roads, and ocean ports, and shared control over the Steel Road pass with the Hyrkoon on the other side of the mountains. They survived the Doom unscathed, and stayed out of the fighting among the Free Cities.

And then the Dothraki destroyed all of their cities (according to Lands), or all but the small port town of Saath (according to World).

There's also Qaath, who controlled the area south of the Red Waste. They're not quite as old, but still older than Samarkand (they became Sarnor's rival after Ghis was destroyed). Their fertile land was gradually receding as the Waste grew, but they still had at least four major cities after the Doom.

The Dothraki, again, destroyed them all, forcing them to flee to their last colony, Qarth.

I don't know who lived between Sarnor and the Waste. It seems like a third of central Essos may have already been abandoned for millennia for no visible reason. But still, the Dothraki had plenty of great cities to conquer.

So you have your answer. The Dothraki destroyed it all, the waste grew, and these former great empires didn't adapt to the climate change.

[Greymoon]

How do we know Essos is empty?

And by what standard is it being measured, anyway?

[TheLightning Lord]

Yep. Silly question, but doesn't Tyrion see people on his way to Volantis? I remember him making a face and scaring a young girl at some point. Doesn't this show that there are actually villages and farms here and there?

Also, it should be noted Griff and his party would have been actively trying to avoid as many people as possible, for obvious reasons.

[TimJames]

The Dothraki did do it!

Before the century of blood, the "empty space" in north eastern Essos was filled with the kingdom of Sarnor and the Valyrian trading colonel of Essarya.

Then Valyria Falls, and Dothraki horse lords storm in, completely exterminating both realms. That returned the land to its natural state, and prevented anyone from settling there again.

Trust me, if the Free Cities ever invent a Gatling Gun, the Dothraki will be pushed back and Sarnor will be resettled.

[sootfish]

My point is that... given it likely that the Dothraki do not have a large population (and even less so considering the area of the Dothraki sea), I don't think it is probable (in real world logic anyway) that they could have stomped down any and all settlements sufficiently for 400 years. Anyhow, sedentary peoples are known to have fought nomadic warriors vigorously - and won. It's also difficult to see how the Dothraki, given their decentralized organization, could have been as free of political manipulation by external powers as we see in the books.

But then, this is fantasy. The more I think about it the more I'm given to the idea that GRRM is not as geographically or historically conscious and we may think. A lot of this may be just blunders... I mean, I'm sure some of the people on these forums spend more time thinking about Planetos as a whole then GRRM does.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Come to think of it, there are a couple times when Asha Greyjoy contemplates leaving the Ironborn and settling an uninhabited peninsula in the North, that is rich with game and timber. And I had to wonder why, if it was so attractive and readily accessible by ship, it wasn't settled already.

For that matter, why isn't anyone living in the Gift, south of the Wall?

ironborn raid prob make it unattractive on top of the norths climate, same with the gift and wildling raids

[Gwindor of Nargothrond]

My point is that... given it likely that the Dothraki do not have a large population (and even less so considering the area of the Dothraki sea), I don't think it is probable (in real world logic anyway) that they could have stomped down any and all settlements sufficiently for 400 years. Anyhow, sedentary peoples are known to have fought nomadic warriors vigorously - and won. It's also difficult to see how the Dothraki, given their decentralized organization, could have been as free of political manipulation by external powers as we see in the books.

Drogos Khalasar had 40000 'Dothraki screamers', and we are led to believe that there are a number of these roaming armies. You have a few hordes of vicious men riding around an area constantly raping and pillaging villages, I think you'll find the people will stay away.

[falcotron]

The Dothraki did do it!

At this point, I'm sick of writing the same replies over and over to people who clearly aren't even reading before responding. Unless you can explain how the Dothraki, coming 400 years ago, are responsible for the fact that nobody resettled the Rhoyne in the 600 years before they came, or Ghiscar in the nearly 5000 years, and for every attempt at settling northern Sothryos failing for thousands of years, and for that huge empty space between the Disputed Lands and Pentos, and so on, how is this supposed to be an answer to anything at all?

[falcotron]

My point is that... given it likely that the Dothraki do not have a large population (and even less so considering the area of the Dothraki sea), I don't think it is probable (in real world logic anyway) that they could have stomped down any and all settlements sufficiently for 400 years. Anyhow, sedentary peoples are known to have fought nomadic warriors vigorously - and won. It's also difficult to see how the Dothraki, given their decentralized organization, could have been as free of political manipulation by external powers as we see in the books.

A different thought here: This may be just a problem of time scale (one not at all explained by my theory in the other thread, or Ass and Fire's alternative theory, but that doesn't mean anything except that maybe we're both wrong, which I already knew:)).

People are beginning to manipulate the Dothraki (see Illyrio, obviously). There are Dothraki warriors leaving the hordes to make their fortunes in the West. The recent rise in the fortunes of Qarth may imply that channeling all trade that used to go through the southern passes along the northern route is starting to backfire, causing even more trade to go by sea instead of land to avoid them. And so on.

These are all things you'd expect to happen after, say, 40 years after, rather than 400. So, maybe the Dothraki are starving themselves out of dominance as you suggested they should, but it's just taking 10x longer than you'd expect in a realistic world.

It would be a shame if Martin were just habitually stretching many things out to 1/10th their normal speed, while having other things happen in realistic time frames. Not just because I like my theory that the Valyrians had something to do with the apparently stagnant world, but because it takes away from the believability of the world when things that should fit together don't you're trying to sew together patches of incompatible shapes. But it's definitely not impossible.

[TimJames]

At this point, I'm sick of writing the same replies over and over to people who clearly aren't even reading before responding. Unless you can explain how the Dothraki, coming 400 years ago, are responsible for the fact that nobody resettled the Rhoyne in the 600 years before they came, or Ghiscar in the nearly 5000 years, and for every attempt at settling northern Sothryos failing for thousands of years, and for that huge empty space between the Disputed Lands and Pentos, and so on, how is this supposed to be an answer to anything at all?

Well, each depopulated region got wiped out by a different calamity. The Kingdom of Sarnor and the free city of Essaria WERE wiped out by the Dothraki: that is literally stated in canon. Once Gatling guns are invented, the Dothraki will be wiped off the face of the Earth and the Sarnor will be reinhabited.

The Rhoyne and Old Ghis, on the other hand, was wiped out by Valyrians. The reason nobody went there to resettle those places could be the same reason why nobody moved back to Carthage after the Romans had their way with it: the earth was scorched too thuroughly. That the Rhoyne is used as a dumping ground for the terminally ill does not help.

The Northern Half of Southyros is filled bindlemen who are notoriously hostile towards foreigners. Again, once Gatling guns and penicillin come into play the continent of Southyros will be fair game.

The reason nobody lives in the Disputed Lands is self evident: it is disputed. If three city states constantly fight over a plot of land, nobody will want to live there. The only thing that can attract people to the Disputed Lands is a if the fighting stops.

[EastTymor]

At this point, I'm sick of writing the same replies over and over to people who clearly aren't even reading before responding. Unless you can explain how the Dothraki, coming 400 years ago, are responsible for the fact that nobody resettled the Rhoyne in the 600 years before they came, or Ghiscar in the nearly 5000 years, and for every attempt at settling northern Sothryos failing for thousands of years, and for that huge empty space between the Disputed Lands and Pentos, and so on, how is this supposed to be an answer to anything at all?

I still don't think that you have proved that the Rhoyne has been depopulated far below what one would expect continuously for the last thousand years.

Given the presence of trade and slavers on the river, it is reasonable to conclude that the area around it is populated to at least some extent. Given the size of the Rhoyne, and by extension its floodplain, it is reasonable to conclude that many settlements may not be visible to a traveler on the river. Given the presence of pirates, Dothraki, and others, it is reasonable to conclude that any residents would take pains not to be seen by strangers. So I think that the Rhoyne is more populated than you give it credit for.

I think that we have different views both of how populated West Essos should be, and how populous it actually is. You seem to be expecting many cities the size of Volon Therys or larger. I am surprised there are any and would expect the vast bulk of the population to be villages and towns of a thousand people or under. A blank space on a map does not mean a blank space in reality. You seem to think that the area has been entirely deserted for a thousand years. I think that there are clear signs of population and that we have no way of knowing what the area was like 50 years ago, much less 500.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Well, each depopulated region got wiped out by a different calamity. The Kingdom of Sarnor and the free city of Essaria WERE wiped out by the Dothraki: that is literally stated in canon. Once Gatling guns are invented, the Dothraki will be wiped off the face of the Earth and the Sarnor will be reinhabited.

The Rhoyne and Old Ghis, on the other hand, was wiped out by Valyrians. The reason nobody went there to resettle those places could be the same reason why nobody moved back to Carthage after the Romans had their way with it: the earth was scorched too thuroughly. That the Rhoyne is used as a dumping ground for the terminally ill does not help.

The Northern Half of Southyros is filled bindlemen who are notoriously hostile towards foreigners. Again, once Gatling guns and penicillin come into play the continent of Southyros will be fair game.

The reason nobody lives in the Disputed Lands is self evident: it is disputed. If three city states constantly fight over a plot of land, nobody will want to live there. The only thing that can attract people to the Disputed Lands is a if the fighting

Within 200-300 years of carthage being destroyed/ground salted(mostly symbolic) it was resettled/built amd the second or third biggest Roman city.

[yomi]

Finally, notice that most of the areas aren't left empty on the maps, they're marked as full of ruined and abandoned cities. For example, in the World app, there are 7 clickable locations between Norvos and Selhorys. But none of them are places where people live (except the Sorrows, where a few Stone Men and pirates live).

I'm among those, who believe that there are small villages and towns along the Rhoyne, so I would interpret this in the following way:

The ruined and abandones cities were, well, cities, big enough and with enough interesting history that maesters would mark them on a Westerosi map. The small villages and towns that now exist along the Rhoyne are too small and too boring to be marked on the maps, though, unless you have a very precise map of a small part of that region (which we don't).

Within 200-300 years of carthage being destroyed/ground salted(mostly symbolic) it was resettled/built amd the second or third biggest Roman city.

Then, again, this is rather true... IIRC, it was even less than 200 years between catharge's destruction and refoundation by the romans. Later, it got destroyed again during the islamic expansion, but the area didn't remain emtpy, but closeby Tunis became larger.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I'm among those, who believe that there are small villages and towns along the Rhoyne, so I would interpret this in the following way:

The ruined and abandones cities were, well, cities, big enough and with enough interesting history that maesters would mark them on a Westerosi map. The small villages and towns that now exist along the Rhoyne are too small and too boring to be marked on the maps, though, unless you have a very precise map of a small part of that region (which we don't).

Then, again, this is rather true... IIRC, it was even less than 200 years between catharge's destruction and refoundation by the romans. Later, it got destroyed again during the islamic expansion, but the area didn't remain emtpy, but closeby Tunis became larger.

Thanks for the correction my roman history knowledge ain't great and doesn't tyrion agree with you in a chapter in one of the free cities don't he and haldon discuss all the towns that in Westeros would be cities so their is some other towns bar giant cities and 10 people farms.

[Beautiful Balon]

Come to think of it, there are a couple times when Asha Greyjoy contemplates leaving the Ironborn and settling an uninhabited peninsula in the North, that is rich with game and timber. And I had to wonder why, if it was so attractive and readily accessible by ship, it wasn't settled already.

For that matter, why isn't anyone living in the Gift, south of the Wall?

1. Cause the Ironborn raid it.

2.cause the wilding raid it

add in devasting winters and there's your answer