Why is the world so empty?

[sootfish]

-double post-

[A Hapless Newbie]

I'd like to think GRRM is such a meticulous writer that there's a profound explanation for this that will be revealed and dazzle us all in the next two books, but I really don't think it runs much deeper than it being an enormous amount of additional work for virtually no payoff. I mean, that is an awful lot of fake city names he would have to come up with.

I'll take any solid Fan Wank explanations people have to offer, though.

[falcotron]

There are more mundane plagues as well- flooding, bandits, pirates, Dothraki, unemployed mercenaries, employed mercenaries, Free City-ites, etc that might suffice to keep the area immediately around the Rhoyne scarcely populated. Plenty of areas of Europe have been depopulated in similar circumstances. See Italy after the Gothic Wars for instance.

OK, let's see Italy after the Gothic Wars. Rome and its surroundings were of course vastly depopulated--but it was still one of the largest cities in Europe (more than double the size of London, for example). Many other Italian cities only took a few generations to get back to their previous population. Some (including, obviously, Ravenna, but also most of the northern cities) actually expanded.

And there were no swaths of land anywhere in the middle of Italy that were left abandoned for the next 6000 years, much less 95% of Italy plus most of the rest of Europe.

The areas in question were damaged after the Doom of Valyria, due to the doom's supervolcano event producing its own winds, and shifting radioactive ash in specific patterns that ended up poisoning the groundwater in the areas which remain uninhabited.

<removing B.S. hat>

How did I do? Does it work?

No, because radioactive ash in 103 BC cannot account for areas being abandoned 700-6000 years before that eruption. If you're willing to put the B.S. hat back on, I think you need to involve an exploding TARDIS.

[EastTymor]

OK, let's see Italy after the Gothic Wars. Rome and its surroundings were of course vastly depopulated--but it was still one of the largest cities in Europe (more than double the size of London, for example). Many other Italian cities only took a few generations to get back to their previous population. Some (including, obviously, Ravenna, but also most of the northern cities) actually expanded.

And there were no swaths of land anywhere in the middle of Italy that were left abandoned for the next 6000 years, much less 95% of Italy plus most of the rest of Europe.

We don't need to explain 6000 years of abandonment though. We need to explain less than a thousand years of no major cities north of Volon Therys and Selhorys, which is easily enough done- the Valyrians destroyed them all a thousand years ago, and since then there has not been enough order to allow for the growth of cities. We know that the upper reaches of the Rhoyne support enough of a population for Griff to be wary of being found by pirates and slavers. We also know there are merchants on the Rhoyne, and that at various times at least Braavos, Lys, Qohor, Norvos, and Volantis have seen fit to fight on the Rhoyne.

[Dire Dawg]

Please read the whole thing before replying. No theory that's based on everyone living along the cost makes sense given how far inland Norvos and Qohor are.

Sure, we know there are small villages for a short distance outside Pentos, we can assume there are some within the Braavosi coastline, and within the disputed lands, and we know Volantis actually has a handful of colonies that a Westerosi would call a large town if not a city. But that still covers a tiny percentage of the land in western Essos.

So what about my idea where the main cities wipe-out any upstarts?

[falcotron]

One thing that really troubles me is how the Dothraki function.

This bothers me too, but I think it's a separate question, so I didn't bring it up here (and it's a large part of the reason I focused on western Essos and not central Essos). But I do want to add one more thing, on top of the issues you raised: Nomadic peoples who rule empires as vast as the Dothraki (or even a fraction the size) actually rule empires, not wastelands. The Mongols had a string of great cities from Karakorum to Samarkand and beyond. If you burn every city and farm you came across, everyone who lives in your territory will starve to death, including you. Just having a bunch of slaves following the train of your roving band does not help you to raise food (well, unless you're zombies, maybe).

[falcotron]

So what about my idea where the main cities wipe-out any upstarts?

That's not completely impossible, but it is pretty wildly implausible. That kind of thing is incredibly rare, and the handful of examples we have (e.g., Israel vs. Canaanites, Rome vs. Carthage, Mongols vs. Baghdad), someone, usually the conquerors themselves, has cities in the same place within a generation or two.

Imagine that you're the Master of Qohor, and an upstart new city 250 miles away is cutting into your trade routes or muscling in on the wood market. You could burn the city to the ground, kill every man, woman, and child, and salt the fields for 100 miles around. But that's a lot more expensive than just conquering and ruling them. And even that is a lot more expensive than just putting the feat of the Black Goat into them and forcing them to sign a treaty where they give you tribute and agree to take your side in any war or trade dispute against Norvos or Volantis. So, which one do you think most leaders choose?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think it's mentioned in the world book Valyrians conquered many other people other than Ghiscari and Rhoynar but we don't know about them because the Doom destroyed every record of their history.

As for the far east, Yandel says only the most powerful and populated civilizations are known to Westeros because the distance makes it impossible to know all the risen and fallen people.

[Dire Dawg]

That's not completely impossible, but it is pretty wildly implausible. That kind of thing is incredibly rare, and the handful of examples we have (e.g., Israel vs. Canaanites, Rome vs. Carthage, Mongols vs. Baghdad), someone, usually the conquerors themselves, has cities in the same place within a generation or two.

Imagine that you're the Master of Qohor, and an upstart new city 250 miles away is cutting into your trade routes or muscling in on the wood market. You could burn the city to the ground, kill every man, woman, and child, and salt the fields for 100 miles around. But that's a lot more expensive than just conquering and ruling them. And even that is a lot more expensive than just putting the feat of the Black Goat into them and forcing them to sign a treaty where they give you tribute and agree to take your side in any war or trade dispute against Norvos or Volantis. So, which one do you think most leaders choose?

I don't know how expensive it would really be though. You hire one or more of the dozens of free companies, tell them to sack and destroy this smallish competitor. Perhaps the whole slave trade angle helps finance these excursions. Every few years the big cities go on slaving conquests. They kill most of the adult males and enslave everyone else and sell them off, send them to the mines etc. Keeps the population of these minor rivals from ever being able to get big enough to develop into an actual rival. The campaign doesn't cost much as it is off-set by the slave sales/low cost labor and booty.

As far as ruling them goes, it doesn't really seem like any of the Essos civilizations have any sort of empire, or multi-city entity. Maybe they all have a collective memory of living under the Valyrians or Ghiscarians, and will do anything to prevent that from happening again? They do all seem to fight each other every few years. Using Mereen as an example they also seem to be willing to team up to prevent any one state from becoming too powerful.

[falcotron]

I don't know how expensive it would really be though. You hire one or more of the dozens of free companies, tell them to sack and destroy this smallish competitor. Perhaps the whole slave trade angle helps finance these excursions. Every few years the big cities go on slaving conquests. They kill most of the adult males and enslave everyone else and sell them off, send them to the mines etc. Keeps the population of these minor rivals from ever being able to get big enough to develop into an actual rival.

But that's not the situation we're trying to explain. The issue isn't that all of the other cities are small, it's that they don't exist, not even towns or villages, between the domains of the major city-states. So, even keeping other rivals from getting too big in this way were a realistic thing to do, it couldn't explain what we see in Essos.

Also, why have you skipped the third choice and only compared the other two? Scaring them and forcing a treaty that's to your advantage is much cheaper and more profitable than either destroying them or ruling them, which is why it's the outcome of most medieval wars. Occasionally, someone would do something different, but only when there's a very good reason (and again, that very good reason is usually that you want the land to put your own city there, which obviously isn't happening in Essos).

[Dire Dawg]

But that's not the situation we're trying to explain. The issue isn't that all of the other cities are small, it's that they don't exist, not even towns or villages, between the domains of the major city-states. So, even keeping other rivals from getting too big in this way were a realistic thing to do, it couldn't explain what we see in Essos.

Also, why have you skipped the third choice and only compared the other two? Scaring them and forcing a treaty that's to your advantage is much cheaper and more profitable than either destroying them or ruling them, which is why it's the outcome of most medieval wars. Occasionally, someone would do something different, but only when there's a very good reason (and again, that very good reason is usually that you want the land to put your own city there, which obviously isn't happening in Essos).

How certain are we that there aren't small villages (like 50-100 people) scattered about? Sorry, I don't have the world book or the Ap so I don't know how detailed it is with regards to towns or villages. Maybe they occasionally just go and round-up/kill any excess people in the villages, and never give anyone a chance to develop into anything like a town or city.

I thought I did answer the third choice of a treaty, but probably not explicitly. My idea that nobody has a multi-city empire/state in western Essos since the rival city states won't let it occur because they don't want anything that looks like a new Valyrian or Ghiscari empire to get started. Maybe some have tried in the past to have colony cities only to have the other major cities gang up on them to prevent it from happening, either by attacking and wiping out this new colony or attacking the main city. This might make it unprofitable to go this route. Maybe they have found that it is hard to really govern these colonies, and it isn't worth their time.

[Greymoon]

This bothers me too, but I think it's a separate question, so I didn't bring it up here (and it's a large part of the reason I focused on western Essos and not central Essos). But I do want to add one more thing, on top of the issues you raised: Nomadic peoples who rule empires as vast as the Dothraki (or even a fraction the size) actually rule empires, not wastelands. The Mongols had a string of great cities from Karakorum to Samarkand and beyond. If you burn every city and farm you came across, everyone who lives in your territory will starve to death, including you. Just having a bunch of slaves following the train of your roving band does not help you to raise food (well, unless you're zombies, maybe).

Many of the territories conquered by Gengis Khan had an old history of belonging to various great empires from antiquity onwards, though. That didn't happen in Essos, there was no great empire after the fall of Valyria. There was, imo, a "tear" in the "cultural/historical fabric" of that region.

No great empire means no infrastructure. A lot of these regions in essos seems quite dry and hot. If there is no great empire, or ancient culture to build upon (and the valyrians did destroy a lot of that cultural heritage before disapearing themselves) that means there is no great ingeneering feat (wind towers, irrigation systems) to make living in such areas remotedly comfortable.

Samarkand is one of the oldest inhabited cities in Central Asia, it was an administrative center during Achaemenid period already (550- 330 BC). It then became part of Alexander's Empire, and later of the Sassanid Empire etc, etc. There is a continuity, too, between these empires. None of them dispeared as suddenly as the Valyrian empire did.

In real history, each empire build upon the foundation of a previous empire/culture/civilization. In Essos, the Valyrians subjugated other civilizations and later, disapeared completely, leaving a cultural vacuum in their wake.

...another thing is, the Dothraki do not "rule" an empire, or even a wasteland, in that way they are different form the Mogols. The Dothraki do not conquer other people to assimilate them to a dothraki "empire"... is there even such a thing? from what I understand, the dothraki khals do what they want, when they want, they are tied together only by a common culture and the old crones of Vaes Dothrak.

That is why their prophesized "savior" is the Khal of Khals, the Stallion that Mounts the World = a Khal powerful enough to unite all of the dothraki behind him, to build an empire (and that Khal is Dany, imo :) )

As for the rest, in Essos, few people would settle in the Dothraki sea, for obvious reasons. No one would settle in the red waste, for obvious reasons, too.

[Cybvep]

Hold your horses, Mr or Ms OP. I think that you dismiss too many ideas too quickly, while the explanation is probably a combination of various ideas.

If you burn every city and farm you came across, everyone who lives in your territory will starve to death, including you.

We know that the Dothraki don't burn and kill everything and everyone. Sure, they like pillaging and raiding, but they also collect tributes from various cities and most of the time leave the people living in them unharmed, which we learn very early in GOT. And BTW, Drogo comes to Pentos in GOT. That's very far west. The Dothraki are obviously very mobile and there are few places in Essos which aren't outside their reach.

Everyone lives on the coasts, because naval technology is so far ahead of land transport. This one sounds compelling, until you look at how far inland Norvos and Qohor are. And then read that Norvos and Qohor wrested control of the Rhoyne from Volantis a few centuries ago, but haven't bothered to set up any colonies closer to that all-important naval transportation

If you look at the map, you will see that both Norvos and Qohor can use the rivers for transportation, so that's actually an argument for the importance of naval transport. Every other Free City is located on the coast. Every single one. Yep.

From WotIF we learn that Norvos is surrounded by hills and forests. This makes the position strategic and easy to defend, I guess, and gives the people living there access to wood and game. The Norvosi have terraced farms, too, and holdfasts and villages protected by palisades. We also learn that:

The city’s domains stretch as far as the western bank of the Darkwash to the east and the Upper Rhoyne to the west. Norvoshi river galleys rule the Noyne as far south as the ruins of Ny Sar, where she joins the Rhoyne. Great Norvos even claims dominion over the Axe upon the Shivering Sea, though this claim is disputed, often bloodily, by the Ibbenese.

Again, the importance of naval transportation (and naval power) is stressed.

As for Qohor, the city "stands on the river Qhoyne on the western edge of the vast, dark, primordial forest to which she gives her name, the greatest wood in all of Essos". Again, a very strategic position, and easy to defend. We also read about the dark arts, the necromacy, bloodmagic, blood sacrifices etc. Not a very friendly place, it seems. Nevertheless, the importance of naval transportation is stressed yet again:

The woods that surround Qohor are the principal source of the city’s wealth. The earliest settlement here was a lumber camp, the city’s histories reveal. Even to this day, it is as hunters and foresters the Qohorik are most famed. The shining cities and sprawling towns of the lower Rhoyne hunger for wood, and their own forests have long ago been depleted, cut down and plowed under for fields and farms. Huge barges heavy with timber depart the docks of Qohor every day for the long voyage down the Qhoyne to Dagger Lake and the markets of Selhorys, Valysar, Volon Therys, and Old Volantis.

We also know that ATM Qohor marks the end of "civilized" world. The eastern plains are ruled by Dothraki:

Qohor is also famed as the gateway to the east, where trading caravans bound for Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands beyond the Bones are outfitted and provisioned before heading into the gloom of the forest, the desolation that was Sarnor, and the vastness of the Dothraki sea. Conversely, caravans returning from the east come first to Qohor, to refresh themselves after the crossing and sell and trade the treasures they have acquired

Still, it wasn't the case before the Doom. Actually, eastern Essos was controlled by the Sarnori, the Tall Men.

The fall of the great Sarnori kingdoms took less than a century. Even as the Free Cities of the west became locked in a savage struggle for domination during what became known as the Century of Blood, the grasslands, too, exploded into war. During the years that followed the Doom, the riders of the eastern steppes, hitherto divided into threescore quarrelsome tribes at perpetual war with one another, had finally been united under a single leader, a Dothraki khal called Mengo.

That part of the continent wasn't "empty" then.

[

• Valyria: It's pretty obvious why no one has resettled the area, and that the reason is at least partly magical.
  
• Ghiscar: The Valyrians salted the ground, and 5000 years later, still nothing grows there.
  
• Rhoynar: Garin the Great cursed those who attacked them, and there are legends that he returned as the Shrouded Lord.
  
• Hyrkoon: No information, except that their lands turned into a desert.
  
• Sarnor: Recent, and mundane explanation (Dothraki did it).
  
• Yeen and Zamettar: People believe the land is cursed, and every settlement anyone has attempted failed.
  

I think that this plays a part, too. Places destroyed by men or by nature that have never been rebuilt.

Also, how many people do think live in Westeros and Essos? The population is not large and the land is vast. Why do you think that every place should be inhabited, especially if we know that some places WERE inhabited and now aren't because of conquest or various cataclysms? We also know that smaller villages, farms, castles, inns and temples are not marked on maps, because we see places like that in the series quite often and besides, it's a very reasonable assumption.

There are no Valyria-like empires in Essos ATM. That doesn't mean that it will always be the case.

[The Marquis de Leech]

ASOIAF is character-driven. Martin (who isn't a great world-builder to start with) has more pressing priorities.

[Gwindor of Nargothrond]

But there are villages. Dany meets Mirri Maz Duur in a village that the Dothraki sack. They had their own temple, which has stood for at least three generations, and I would assume the Dothraki sacking such villages is common, so there would be more than one. It may be largely uninhabited, but I'm sure there are plenty of towns and villages that we don't know about.

[falcotron]

Many of the territories conquered by Gengis Khan had an old history of belonging to various great empires from antiquity onwards, though. That didn't happen in Essos, there was no great empire after the fall of Valyria. There was, imo, a "tear" in the "cultural/historical fabric" of that region.

You want a great empire with an old history? Sarnor controlled the northern 40% or so of what's now the Dothraki Sea. They were fighting Ghis long before Valyria existed, which makes them well over 5000 years old. One of their cities was the second largest city west of the Bone Mountains (which means larger than Volantis, which apparently has nearly a million people). They had a trading network along rivers, roads, and ocean ports, and shared control over the Steel Road pass with the Hyrkoon on the other side of the mountains. They survived the Doom unscathed, and stayed out of the fighting among the Free Cities.

And then the Dothraki destroyed all of their cities (according to Lands), or all but the small port town of Saath (according to World).

There's also Qaath, who controlled the area south of the Red Waste. They're not quite as old, but still older than Samarkand (they became Sarnor's rival after Ghis was destroyed). Their fertile land was gradually receding as the Waste grew, but they still had at least four major cities after the Doom.

The Dothraki, again, destroyed them all, forcing them to flee to their last colony, Qarth.

I don't know who lived between Sarnor and the Waste. It seems like a third of central Essos may have already been abandoned for millennia for no visible reason. But still, the Dothraki had plenty of great cities to conquer.

[falcotron]

Also, how many people do think live in Westeros and Essos? The population is not large and the land is vast.

We know that the population of Westeros in the millions, and its two largest cities have over half a million people. That's pretty large for a medieval setting.

Why do you think that every place should be inhabited

Because that's what people do. They inhabit every place that's remotely inhabitable.

especially if we know that some places WERE inhabited and now aren't because of conquest or various cataclysms?

Conquest and cataclysms don't leave places uninhabited for more than a few generations. Even after the Plague of Justinian, when large areas were abandoned to wilderness, they were soon cleared and turned back into agricultural land, and within a couple centuries there were towns growing into cities. You need something on the scale of the plague that killed the Native Americans to prevent that (and even there, the land didn't remain uninhabited, it just because inhabited by Europeans...).

The only way inhabitable land will stay unused for thousands of years is if it actually becomes uninhabitable.

Which is exactly my point: something has rendered a whole lot of the formerly-inhabitable land uninhabitable--or, rather, a whole lot of separate somethings have done so. The only explanation I have for that is magic. And the fact that GRRM explicitly tells us about magic curses in some of those areas makes that seem like a reasonable explanation to me.

We also know that smaller villages, farms, castles, inns and temples are not marked on maps, because we see places like that in the series quite often and besides, it's a very reasonable assumption.

If you read my original post, this is the very first thing I answer.

And, besides Tyrion's travelogue, we're also directly told that, for example, since the fall of Yeen and Zamettar, no one lives in northern Sothyros, and everyone who has attempted to settle there has failed. We even get a story of Nymeria's attempt and the horrors that befell them. I don't think it's unreasonable to take that as meaning that no one lives there, and that the reason is a magical curse.

Finally, notice that most of the areas aren't left empty on the maps, they're marked as full of ruined and abandoned cities. For example, in the World app, there are 7 clickable locations between Norvos and Selhorys. But none of them are places where people live (except the Sorrows, where a few Stone Men and pirates live).

There are no Valyria-like empires in Essos ATM. That doesn't mean that it will always be the case.

What do you base that on? Every empire that arose in Essos did so at least 5000 years ago. What makes you think that will change? (There might be an answer to that--it might even be my theory from the linked thread--but I don't think it's something you can just assume must happen, given the history we're given.)

But, more importantly, I'm not asking why there's not a Valyria-like empire, say, along the Rhoyne, I'm asking why there's nobody and nothing at all along the Rhoyne beyond ruined cities, a small leper colony of Stone Men, and a small pirate base. There were no Rome-like empires in central Europe in 1100 AD, but there were still millions of people living in dozens of cities, hundreds of towns, and thousands of villages, not thousands of square miles of abandoned empty ruins. So, why is Essos different from Europe, or any other human land?

[Daeron Velar]

But there are villages. Dany meets Mirri Maz Duur in a village that the Dothraki sack. They had their own temple, which has stood for at least three generations, and I would assume the Dothraki sacking such villages is common, so there would be more than one. It may be largely uninhabited, but I'm sure there are plenty of towns and villages that we don't know about.

Yep, I remember that part and I do remember that when Dany was leaving Pentos to go to Vaes Dothrak that they passed town's on the way there.

Personally why I think large parts of the map are unmarked is simply because their inhabitants don't really have any importance to the over all story and are not that large to require placement on the map. We also have to remember that cities and towns are generally placed and located in severals area's including access to large bodies of water including transportation and drinking water, near forest's for log's and game to eat and area's where it is easily defensible against your enemies. We also have to consider temperature/humidity etc. Sure there might be subtropical conditions even tropical but even today you don't see cities in the Amazon because it's is inhabitable conditions being too hot/humid and no doubt dangerous with the dangerous animals in the asoiaf series! Even when the conquistadors came, many died because of mosquitoes and the high humidity of the American south especially in the swamps and Everglades and from diseases that those mosquitoes brought including malaria as well as alligators and crocodiles and the former Eastern Panther which a tiny proportion exists in the Everglades. The conditions could just be not worth it and it might be hostile for people to exist. Especially with their lackluster technology which just includes swords as the primarily weapon and a shield for defense. Must consider the people as well and their hostilities especially raiders like the Dothraki and pirates on river's. Why you you think that Sothoryos isn't teeming with life. Because it's hostile and has thick rainforest with dangerous animals and diseases including some dangerous area involving magic but hey it's suitable right with it's tropical climate which is a blessing and a curse.

[Cybvep]

We know that the population of Westeros in the millions, and its two largest cities have over half a million people. That's pretty large for a medieval setting.

But Westeros is big (we don't know how big, exactly, but still, it's big) and Essos is much, much bigger. Do you really expect to see people hiding behind every bush?

Anyway, I don't know why land around parts of Rhoyne bugs you so much. We know that it's not completely uninhabited, we know that it's heavily used for trading and the river itself is plagued by pirates (who have to come from somewhere). We know that there are some stone men in the Sorrows and people tend to avoid this place. We know that there are ruins of ancient cities and we know that there are functioning towns like Selhorys under Volantis' influence. We know that the Dothraki come there and collect the tribute (that much was said in one of Tyrion's chapters). And we know that currently there are no empires in Essos, but several competing major city-states.

What do you base that on? Every empire that arose in Essos did so at least 5000 years ago. What makes you think that will change?

Remove the Dothraki from the way and suddenly you have huge land ripe for the picking (some of it very fertile), with much less danger than before. And Dothraki won't last forever. And as you said yourself, before the Dothraki came several hundred years ago, there was the Kingdom of Sarnor. They survived the Doom, but they didn't survive the Dothraki.

And, besides Tyrion's travelogue, we're also directly told that, for example, since the fall of Yeen and Zamettar, no one lives in northern Sothyros, and everyone who has attempted to settle there has failed.

Well, we don't know very much about Sothyros, but it's possible that the place is cursed, sure.

[RedShirt47]

I always assumed there were lots of little hamlets and villages in the "empty" spaces on the maps. These would have little more than a couple of housea, an inn and a well.

They can't grow any bigger or the Dothraki will pillage them. The Dothraki will likely ignore a couple of houses (unless they are right in their path).

GRRM doesn't mention the smallfolk that much, like history the books are very noble-centric. Most of these hamlets won't appear on any map and likely don't even have a name.