JulianaLeGrand Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 I agree that it can be a much at times. I think that's what the author's trying to say. The fact that seeing some of it should shock him, but it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 As stated in comic con. Violence against women is natural in that setting. So is 'preying on weak men' in that setting. I agree that D&D havent showed us much of that. If that was shown too the setting would be correct. Also GoT is very graphic. I find it weird that people still watch it and still complain that it is affecting our society. the audience chose it. If they like to watch graphic shit and dont care... I dont understand why a small minority demand the script be according to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Boner Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 So is 'preying on weak men' in that setting. I agree that D&D havent showed us much of that. If that was shown too the setting would be correct. There's been a ton of it. From Theon butchering farm boys to The Hound mugging smallfolk and Joffrey having a minstrels tongue cut out for singing a funny song about the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 As stated in comic con. Violence against women is natural in that setting. So is 'preying on weak men' in that setting. I agree that D&D havent showed us much of that. If that was shown too the setting would be correct. It's not like Westeros is a real place which the show has to accurately document. It's a fictional world. Even if it is based on medieval europe that doesn't mean it's obligated to include anything to be more realistic. So the question is - why does the setting have so much violence and sexual abuse against women? In the books, it's quite clearly because Martin has a lot to say on the topic of sexism and patriarchy and how women react to it, rebel against it and work within it. That's a core part of pretty much every female character. In the show...that exploration is barely there, if at all. So the violence against women is just a backdrop, something to shock. That's exploitative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-07-23/game-of-thrones-showrunners-tell-the-cast-not-to-read-george-rr-martins-books These two idiots are your cultural revolution drivers? Really? I alwalys assumed that the actors had no interest. If this is indeed the case then Martin got screwed. I now have a hate of these two that goes beyond that of Karen Traviss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It's not like Westeros is a real place which the show has to accurately document. It's a fictional world. Even if it is based on medieval europe that doesn't mean it's obligated to include anything to be more realistic. So the question is - why does the setting have so much violence and sexual abuse against women? In the books, it's quite clearly because Martin has a lot to say on the topic of sexism and patriarchy and how women react to it, rebel against it and work within it. That's a core part of pretty much every female character. In the show...that exploration is barely there, if at all. So the violence against women is just a backdrop, something to shock. That's exploitative. I would say every single occasion where there has been violence in the show towards women has been a logical extension of the characters and the setting they are inhabiting. Whether its Khal Drogo raping Dany, or Ramsey abusing Sansa or Joffery shooting girls with crossbows, its a way of showing just how violent and appalling these people are. If we think about it, violence towards women in our society is seen as incredibly low and appalling. Its almost the worst most terrible thing someone could do, apart from violence towards children. Thats recognised by us and the show and so when someone is abused we recognise what a terrible person it is that is inflicting that abuse. Its interesting the outrage that is everywhere over Sansa being raped.. but very little about Theon being repeatedly tortured. Is Theons treatment less shocking? Is it because he is a man that this is ok. Is the violence against other men totally fine because they are men. Is Jamie having his hand chopped off not shocking, is it less terrible because he is a man. Basically I don't think any of these things are done for shock value or to create headlines, I think they are done to illustrate the world and characters in GoT. Having said that, LFs brothel scene with the two girls getting it on is a pretty horrendous bit of titilation and probably the worst scene in the entire series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would say every single occasion where there has been violence in the show towards women has been a logical extension of the characters and the setting they are inhabiting. Whether its Khal Drogo raping Dany, or Ramsey abusing Sansa or Joffery shooting girls with crossbows, its a way of showing just how violent and appalling these people are. If we think about it, violence towards women in our society is seen as incredibly low and appalling. Its almost the worst most terrible thing someone could do, apart from violence towards children. Thats recognised by us and the show and so when someone is abused we recognise what a terrible person it is that is inflicting that abuse. Its interesting the outrage that is everywhere over Sansa being raped.. but very little about Theon being repeatedly tortured. Is Theons treatment less shocking? Is it because he is a man that this is ok. Is the violence against other men totally fine because they are men. Is Jamie having his hand chopped off not shocking, is it less terrible because he is a man. Basically I don't think any of these things are done for shock value or to create headlines, I think they are done to illustrate the world and characters in GoT. Having said that, LFs brothel scene with the two girls getting it on is a pretty horrendous bit of titilation and probably the worst scene in the entire series. If the only purpose is to demonstrate how horrible these people are, how is that not just for pure shock value? That's not exploring anything, that's just wallowing in grittiness. As for why there's less outrage over what happened in Theon's story, well sexual abuse is something that audience members are far more likely to have suffered through first hand, than torture. It hits a lot closer to home, it needs to be treated with sensitivity. Not that torture doesn't need to be treated with sensitivity as well. And indeed there were a lot of complaints during S3 and 4 regarding the gratuity of the torture scenes in the Dreadfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 As for why there's less outrage over what happened in Theon's story, well sexual abuse is something that audience members are far more likely to have suffered through first hand, than torture. It hits a lot closer to home, Really? That is not the reason why there is less outrage. Its because as a society we see women as something that should be protected. Men are seen as the protectors and so its usually ok if they are hurt or something terrible happens, as long as its not a woman or a child. Thats just how we see things. Its a hangover from our old sexist society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It's not like Westeros is a real place which the show has to accurately document. It's a fictional world. Even if it is based on medieval europe that doesn't mean it's obligated to include anything to be more realistic. So the question is - why does the setting have so much violence and sexual abuse against women? In the books, it's quite clearly because Martin has a lot to say on the topic of sexism and patriarchy and how women react to it, rebel against it and work within it. That's a core part of pretty much every female character. In the show...that exploration is barely there, if at all. So the violence against women is just a backdrop, something to shock. That's exploitative. The producer stated the reply to that. "Well..realistic wouldnt be the word" Any society where fighting with physical strength is the norm. The law enforcement is extremely lax And no one has any morals, this WILL happen. The strong prey on the weak. Physically stronger men will assault little children and women. Those low born rapists face castration or the wall if they are captured in the city. If the strong are also rich highborns, no one will question them. That is why she said "In that world and in that setting" That means in a violent, moral-less world where physical strength and sword fighting is the norm. That setting will definetly have women in trouble. Weak men too must choose other paths. Eg) Baelish, hotpie, gendry (Except a few rebel women who choose a physical path - Brienne & Arya Other paths like manipulation - Cercei,Maergery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Really? That is not the reason why there is less outrage. Its because as a society we see women as something that should be protected. Men are seen as the protectors and so its usually ok if they are hurt or something terrible happens, as long as its not a woman or a child. Thats just how we see things. Its a hangover from our old sexist society. Well to an extent that is true and that's not okay. But my point still stands and I would say that it is the main contributing factor. Even with millions of viewers I would wager that very, very few, if any can relate to Theon's experience. And that makes it seem less real and less worthy of outrage. And that's not an unreasonable view. I think the more of your viewers are likely to have experienced something in your story, the more you have to ensure that it rings true. Or people won't buy at best, or will outright hate it at worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 The producer stated the reply to that. "Well..realistic wouldnt be the word" Any society where fighting with physical strength is the norm. The law enforcement is extremely lax And no one has any morals, this WILL happen. The strong prey on the weak. Physically stronger men will assault little children and women. Those low born rapists face castration or the wall if they are captured in the city. If the strong are also rich highborns, no one will question them. That is why she said "In that world and in that setting" That means in a violent, moral-less world where physical strength and sword fighting is the norm. That setting will definetly have women in trouble Again - it comes back to the question of why they wanted to write the setting like that. Martin clearly had something to say, themes to explore. D+D just wanted to be gritty. And even if you have this brutal setting where the strong prey on the weak, you are not obligated to depict sexual violence. D+D were not forced to write that. Look at Mad Max. The entire narrative is about women escaping from sexual slavery and yet there is not one scene of sexual violence in that film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Again - it comes back to the question of why they wanted to write the setting like that. Martin clearly had something to say, themes to explore. D+D just wanted to be gritty. And even if you have this brutal setting where the strong prey on the weak, you are not obligated to depict sexual violence. D+D were not forced to write that. Look at Mad Max. The entire narrative is about women escaping from sexual slavery and yet there is not one scene of sexual violence in that film. Why shouldnt they? Their job is to give an accurate view of the setting.. Why should they avoid this? Cutting off cocks, raping women, hanging people , torture etc is all needed to depict the setting. Why would they need to show a special consideration for that? I however agree that at times they have overdone it OR placed it with very poor script backing. This, I too oppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Well to an extent that is true and that's not okay. But my point still stands and I would say that it is the main contributing factor. Even with millions of viewers I would wager that very, very few, if any can relate to Theon's experience. And that makes it seem less real and less worthy of outrage. And that's not an unreasonable view. I think the more of your viewers are likely to have experienced something in your story, the more you have to ensure that it rings true. Or people won't buy at best, or will outright hate it at worse. Well I still sort of disagree. Why is sexual violence towards women worse than fatal disfiguring violence towards men? I don't think its because we can't imagine it happening to us.. I could easily imagine someone cutting my nob off, believe me! I think its quite hypocritcal of people to take special outrage at violence towards women and not towards men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Well I still sort of disagree. Why is sexual violence towards women worse than fatal disfiguring violence towards men? I don't think its because we can't imagine it happening to us.. I could easily imagine someone cutting my nob off, believe me! I think its quite hypocritcal of people to take special outrage at violence towards women and not towards men. I think you're missing the point. You can imagine it. But it hasn't actually happened to you. A lot more people have experienced sexual violence than have been tortured. So you can't just treat the topic flippantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Why shouldnt they? Their job is to give an accurate view of the setting.. Why should they avoid this? Cutting off cocks, raping women, hanging people , torture etc is all needed to depict the setting. Why would they need to show a special consideration for that? I however agree that at times they have overdone it OR placed it with very poor script backing. This, I too oppose. Did you not even read my post? Westeros is not a real setting. They do not need to include anything to realistically depict it, because it's not real. Those things are in the setting because they want them to be there. And if there's actually a good reason for it - as there is in the books - then that's fine. But window dressing and shock value are not good reasons to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Boner Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Again - it comes back to the question of why they wanted to write the setting like that. Martin clearly had something to say, themes to explore. D+D just wanted to be gritty. And even if you have this brutal setting where the strong prey on the weak, you are not obligated to depict sexual violence. D+D were not forced to write that. Look at Mad Max. The entire narrative is about women escaping from sexual slavery and yet there is not one scene of sexual violence in that film. There's some serious white washing of the sexual violence in the books going on here. If D&D did a totally faithful adaptation there would be a lot more sexual violence in the shows. You can't tell me what jeyne Poole was put through is an exploration of sexism. Dogs for christs sakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think you're missing the point. You can imagine it. But it hasn't actually happened to you. A lot more people have experienced sexual violence than have been tortured. So you can't just treat the topic flippantly. So the people who are outraged have been sexually abused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There's some serious white washing of the sexual violence in the books going on here. If D&D did a totally faithful adaptation there would be a lot more sexual violence in the shows. You can't tell me what jeyne Poole was put through is an exploration of sexism. Dogs for christs sakes. Or how about Lollys getting raped a half hundred times. Imagine if they put that on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Did you not even read my post? Westeros is not a real setting. They do not need to include anything to realistically depict it, because it's not real. Those things are in the setting because they want them to be there. And if there's actually a good reason for it - as there is in the books - then that's fine. But window dressing and shock value are not good reasons to me. Please get my point. I have read your post. It is not a real place. Agreed. They could have chosen to show it as an ideal place. Ignoring the effect of the society setting. Just wars and kings etc. But when they choose to show the society in depth, it will have this due to the power balance and human nature. If they showed non-humans with different characters, then your point is valid... It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. Also, are you a man? :p Its not okay to say that. Many men are raped too. Exactly like our gendry. Statistics must not be used as a justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There's some serious white washing of the sexual violence in the books going on here. If D&D did a totally faithful adaptation there would be a lot more sexual violence in the shows. You can't tell me what jeyne Poole was put through is an exploration of sexism. Dogs for christs sakes. Martin gets pretty dark yes (Though never on page). And you could argue that certain instances are gratuitous and there for shock. But you're really dodging my point there by deflecting things on to Martin. At least in the over all picture Martin has something to say. He created this setting which was brutal towards women so he could talk about how women are treated. There are plot lines which are almost explicitly "woman fights patriarchy." Like Arianne and Asha's storylines in Feast. Plots cut from the show. So what do D+D have to say? They chose to adapt these books, you'd think they would want to explore the same themes. But they've completely erased the commentary that comes with the violence and just have the violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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