addicted to snow Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 While MMD seems to be saying "end of the world" or "will never happen"--but would be interesting if it's more like Patchface. If there's some sort of cataclysmic event that reads like a sunrise in the west. . . Oh, I don't think that MMD was "never" at all... I think that she was giving Danny a truthful, & straightforward answer to Dany's question: "When will he be as he was?" When the Sun rises in the west & sets in the east... [This is more than likely Quentin Martel, if not then it something that is currently over the reader's head.] When the seas go dry; [As the Winds of Winter grow stronger, the snowpack in the north will build, sea level will fall & the narrow sea will go dry around The Step-stones. This will allow Dany & all of her Dothraki & assorted peoples who follow her to walk to Westeros.] & Mountains blow in the wind like leaves... [As foreshadowed in Bran's coma dream & later in one of Sansa's dreams in ACOK, the Mountain will Climb the face of the Eyrie's mountain to assassinate Sansa for Cersei. He will exit via Moon Door - Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves.] When your womb quickens & you birth a living child... [This is the hardest part of the prophesy to interpret. I think that it means that Dany will become a midwife & deliver a child... haha.] Then he [Khal Drogo] will return & not before... What is GRRM's favorite thing to do? Bring people back from the dead... What is MMD saying here? That Khal Drogo will return to Martin's world - he will return from death - just as we have seen numerous other characters return from death via multiple resurrection pathways in this series... I have never understood how someone can read this series, then reread it, and yet still conclude that MMD' words are only a fancy was of saying "never"... Oh no, GRRM would NEVER overlook the opportunity to have a 'hidden' prophesy like this be fulfilled... You can write this down & carve it in stone: The Khal will most definitely return to the story... Of course, The Khal's body was blinded & then burned, so when the time is right, he will have to find a new body to be reborn into... Perhaps a body that will be frozen in an ice cell with a blue rose growing a chink in an ice wall to mark it's place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 While MMD seems to be saying "end of the world" or "will never happen"--but would be interesting if it's more like Patchface. If there's some sort of cataclysmic event that reads like a sunrise in the west. . . Oh, I don't think that MMD was "never" at all... I think that she was giving Danny a truthful, & straightforward answer to Dany's question: "When will he be as he was?" When the Sun rises in the west & sets in the east... [This is more than likely Quentin Martel, if not then it something that is currently over the reader's head.] When the seas go dry; [As the Winds of Winter grow stronger, the snowpack in the north will build, sea level will fall & the narrow sea will go dry around The Step-stones. This will allow Dany & all of her Dothraki & assorted peoples who follow her to walk to Westeros.] & Mountains blow in the wind like leaves... [As foreshadowed in Bran's coma dream & later in one of Sansa's dreams in ACOK, the Mountain will Climb the face of the Eyrie's mountain to assassinate Sansa for Cersei. He will exit via Moon Door - Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves.] When your womb quickens & you birth a living child... [This is the hardest part of the prophesy to interpret. I think that it means that Dany will become a midwife & deliver a child... haha.] Then he [Khal Drogo] will return & not before... What is GRRM's favorite thing to do? Bring people back from the dead... What is MMD saying here? That Khal Drogo will return to Martin's world - he will return from death - just as we have seen numerous other characters return from death via multiple resurrection pathways in this series... I have never understood how someone can read this series, then reread it, and yet still conclude that MMD' words are only a fancy was of saying "never"... Oh no, GRRM would NEVER overlook the opportunity to have a 'hidden' prophesy like this be fulfilled... You can write this down & carve it in stone: The Khal will most definitely return to the story... Of course, The Khal's body was blinded & then burned, so when the time is right, he will have to find a new body to be reborn into... Perhaps a body that will be frozen in an ice cell with a blue rose growing a chink in an ice wall to mark it's place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I have a question, friend. West Texas Intermediate has fallen to forty dollars per barrel. Are you still producing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 [ps what ever happened to Sable Hall??] I believe that political differences got settled there although I wasn't there when the political differences were settled. I noticed that JNR now has a new bit on his "maintenance page" referring back to his "mysterious" coded post in Heresy 144. I think that when translated, his post refers to Khal Drogo falling into a sinkhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Still producing... Still making money... Just not nearly as much money... But all my wells have reached payout, the best one reached payout on the 37th day after we started producing it... Everything after that is profit (for the most part). It looks like the downturn is going to result in a rather large mineral lease that I own to expire before we can drill a well to establish production, but the lease has an option for us to pay a 2nd lease bonus & extend the term by 3 years... This is going to sent me back 1/2 of $94,000... So, all & all the downturn has reduced my monthly income by 60% & I have incurred a $47,000 expense that is 100% tax write-off on the horizon... These wells are all free-flowing & are very cheap to operate... Provided that oil stays above $17.60/BBL I am making money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I wonder how long it would take to read all 170 something pages of this. I stumbled onto this about a week ago and I must say I've skipped most of it. Found this through a search on google and wound up on page 12 I think. Page after page after page I finally did a more thorough search and found...... What!? There is so much here. All pretty well thought out. I especially like the references to mythology... And really guys just the scope of it all and the obvious effort you all put into dissecting and deciphering grrm's work is mind boggling. I read these books by library as they came out but I just had to go and get them all today when I got off work. Time for a reread from the beginning. I've made it to tyrions chapter where he says goodbye to Jon atop the wall, so a ways to go. I enjoy this heretical theorizing almost as much as the books. Keep it coming. I'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 Welcome to Heresy, stick around and post some more. Re-reading the books is absolutely essential; re-reading old Heresy is probably a bit more daunting as theories are constantly changing. I would recommend though the Centennial Project we ran leading up to Heresy 100. There is some very good stuff in there. :commie: :commie: :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitteRaaf Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I'll look for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Do you equate the "Great Other" of Melisandre with the "Others" of he Lands of always Winter as Melisandre does? Even though this isn't directed at me, I've always interpreted "Great Other" as only meaning "The God That Isn't R'hllor," with other being a term that's purely relative to R'hllor, rather than having any association with the Others of Westeros. Otherwise, you'd think that there'd be a lot more R'hllorist applicants to the NW, or perhaps even crusades being lead beyond the Wall, yet we get little implication that the Red Priests think that the True Enemy and his servants are out there--a conclusion that even Mel arrived at only recently, and is probably misguided. For comparison, Thoros suddenly finds himself in the company of a man revived with fire magic and (occasionally) wielding a flaming sword, yet none of this seemed to spark in him any impulse to head north and save the world; granted, Thoros isn't a zealot like Mel, but he must surely be aware of the basic tenets of his faith. The point of this ramble being that I'm not convinced that the Others of Westeros are really an element of the R'hllorist faith, or that the average resident of Essos - R'hllorist or otherwise - is even aware of their legendary existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Even though this isn't directed at me, I've always interpreted "Great Other" as only meaning "The God That Isn't R'hllor," with other being a term that's purely relative to R'hllor, rather than having any association with the Others of Westeros. Otherwise, you'd think that there'd be a lot more R'hllorist applicants to the NW, or perhaps even crusades being lead beyond the Wall, yet we get little implication that the Red Priests think that the True Enemy and his servants are out there--a conclusion that even Mel arrived at only recently, and is probably misguided. For comparison, Thoros suddenly finds himself in the company of a man revived with fire magic and (occasionally) wielding a flaming sword, yet none of this seemed to spark in him any impulse to head north and save the world; granted, Thoros isn't a zealot like Mel, but he must surely be aware of the basic tenets of his faith. The point of this ramble being that I'm not convinced that the Others of Westeros are really an element of the R'hllorist faith, or that the average resident of Essos - R'hllorist or otherwise - is even aware of their legendary existence. The Great Other is described by Mel as: "The Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror". This links the Great Other with the Others, that are made of ice and come in the night to terrorize mankind. We also have the shadows during Mirri's ritual: a man covered in flames (probably R'hllor) and a Great Wolf (probably the Great Other). Mirri learnt the ritual from someone from Asshai. Then Mel has visions of BR and Bran and assumes that they are champions of the Great Other. Plus we have BR telling Bran not to fear the darkness and that the darkness will nurture him. So there is some basis for linking the Great Other with the Others and maybe with the weirwoods, BR and Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 The point of this ramble being that I'm not convinced that the Others of Westeros are really an element of the R'hllorist faith, or that the average resident of Essos - R'hllorist or otherwise - is even aware of their legendary existence. I agree, part of the problem with Mel is that she is interpeting and ultimately imposing her beliefs where they don't belong. As it is I still have a very strong suspicion that the reason why the Great Other's name may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I agree, part of the problem with Mel is that she is interpeting and ultimately imposing her beliefs where they don't belong. As it is I still have a very strong suspicion that the reason why the Great Other's name may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor. If the R'hllor cult is based in zoroastrianism as GRRM mentioned, then the two gods are twins. One a god of creation, light and good. The other of destruction, darkness and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The Great Other is described by Mel as: "The Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror". This links the Great Other with the Others, that are made of ice and come in the night to terrorize mankind. We also have the shadows during Mirri's ritual: a man covered in flames (probably R'hllor) and a Great Wolf (probably the Great Other). Mirri learnt the ritual from someone from Asshai. Then Mel has visions of BR and Bran and assumes that they are champions of the Great Other. Plus we have BR telling Bran not to fear the darkness and that the darkness will nurture him. So there is some basis for linking the Great Other with the Others and maybe with the weirwoods, BR and Bran. I understand why readers link them, I just don't think that, within the R'hllorist faith, "Great Other" means "God of the Others," or that the Others are even a part of their doctrine. As you say, GRRM was inspired by dualistic religions for the Red Priests, and that's why the Great Other necessarily embodies all qualities that are the opposite of R'hllor. We also have evidence from the WB that the generation-long winter and diminishing of the sun that happened during the LN was a global event, impacting even the far east. It makes sense then that, on Planetos, "night" and "ice" would become bywords for death and evil throughout the world; and, conversely, that dawn and fire take on great importance, even religious significance, in many cultures. The return of the sun is a recurring theme in the global legends of the LN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 If the R'hllor cult is based in zoroastrianism as GRRM mentioned, then the two gods are twins. One a god of creation, light and good. The other of destruction, darkness and evil. Exactly so although I would take the business of the Great Other never being named as meaning that they are two faces of one and the same god.rather than two individuals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I understand why readers link them, I just don't think that, within the R'hllorist faith, "Great Other" means "God of the Others," or that the Others are even a part of their doctrine. As you say, GRRM was inspired by dualistic religions for the Red Priests, and that's why the Great Other necessarily embodies all qualities that are the opposite of R'hllor. We also have evidence from the WB that the generation-long winter and diminishing of the sun that happened during the LN was a global event, impacting even the far east. It makes sense then that, on Planetos, "night" and "ice" would become bywords for death and evil throughout the world; and, conversely, that dawn and fire take on great importance, even religious significance, in many cultures. The return of the sun is a recurring theme in the global legends of the LN. We will have to wait for an answer. GRRM has kept a lot of the red priests' mythology hidden. We know about R'hllor, the Great Other and Azor Ahai killing some monster during the long night and that he will be reborn. We also know that Tyrion was able to translate two valyrian glyphs when Benerro wrote in flames: Doom and Darkness. Mel thinks of the thing that Sam slayed as a "cold children of the Other" and Stannis calls them "Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy". Not sure if this is imagery from the religion mythology or just Mel and Stannis making free associations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Exactly so although I would take the business of the Great Other never being named as meaning that they are two faces of one and the same god.rather than two individuals The Zoroastrianism end of the world scenario involves a saviour figure bringing the end of the world through strife. All souls will have to pass through a river of molten metal; the souls of the just will not suffer but the wicked will burn until purified. In some versions a comet hitting the earth is what creates the river of molten metal. The events start around the year 12000 according to their calendar Maybe the weirwoods/CoTF/the Others know about the plan by the R'hllor followers to have Azor Ahai burn the planet with the red comet to bring the summer that never ends. And are working to stop them; after all fire consumes but cold preserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 Mel thinks of the thing that Sam slayed as a "cold children of the Other" and Stannis calls them "Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy". Not sure if this is imagery from the religion mythology or just Mel and Stannis making free associations. Stannis speaking literally, because that's exactly what Sam slays and GRRM has confirmed that they are made - and therefore by clear implication made by somebody. As to Mel its worth recalling that she came identified and promoted Stannis as Azor Ahai yet had absolutely no inkling in her game plan of an enemy up North, far less the enemy, until Davos persuaded Stannis to go up that way and its only then that Mel got into the next stanza of the halleluja chorus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewolfStark Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Any reason why she couldn't have been given more roses? IE: if she were in a place with a garden. . . Or is there a reason to assume the roses she's holding are the same ones from the crown? Yup--Ned is making connections whether he intends to or not. Roses do not last that long in real life, but even in Martin's world. In fact Martin goes out of his way to say that Winter Roses don't live long south of the Neck. Personally I think the rose petals are supposed to be a metaphor. And wouldn't be the first time a Boomer used rose petals to symbolize something. They make sense in dream logic, but aren't really there but are something his mind adds in as he ties the incident to her crowning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Do you equate the "Great Other" of Melisandre with the "Others" of he Lands of always Winter as Melisandre does? Love the avatar by the way. Just realized, His name is GREAT too, El Kabong, love it! Watched that a ton as a kid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010aaw1Ajo0 ETA: Finally got to reading the Heresy essays, really liked FFR's, nice angle. On to the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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