addicted to snow Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 damn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 damn Sorry. I didn't mean for that to sound so stern or arseholeish... Doesn't really change the sentiment much, really. And I agree it pertains to Jon being born into/from death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Stuff like this is why my favorite pet theories revolve around the stories relation to the Norse myth of Ragnarok. An end times story where the world undergoes a great winter and is scoured by fire. In this turmoil and time of war, the land sinks beneath the sea. The description of the type of world Ragnarok takes place in certainly sounds exactly like the world GRRM has built: "Brothers will fight and kill each other, sisters' children will defile kinship. It is harsh in the world, whoredom rife; an axe age, a sword age; shields are riven; a wind age, a wolf age; before the world goes headlong. No man will have mercy on another." This idea of the end of the world coming as a literal (or, more likely, figurative) submergence under water are also a good way to frame the cleverness of Patchface's prophecies, with "under the sea" being symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending". Not sure why this post is being ignored. The Patchface connection is especially interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Not sure why this post is being ignored. The Patchface connection is especially interesting Probably because it was missed in the slew of posts and/or because its spot on.Its something i agree with - Westeros being in the grips of an Extinction event.The second one anyway from the info in the series(1st LN) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran the Bringer Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Not sure why this post is being ignored. The Patchface connection is especially interesting The connections or analogs between ASoIaF and Norse & Celtic myths have certainly been discussed in the Heresy forums and they are definetly there. The big difference is how 1:1 it will be. It is most likely they are merely allusions to give the feeling of "realness" to the reader, a similitude to keep the suspension of disbelief in place as opposed to very decided playing out of the Ragnarok specifics. There are already plenty of bad fantasy books to cover that story. Somehow I doubt that's where GRRM is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Just to play devils advocate a bit, as someone recently pointed out to me in another place, we do have evidence of a talking wight. Coldhands... Fair enough--but he seems to be an anomaly. And Lyanna seems to be dying, not "continuing" like Coldhands. Or is Ned blocking something out? I'm on my phone and can't pull over the quote right now, but if I remember correctly there's a gap of time that he does not remember surrounding Lyanna and her death. What happened in that missing time? It may be nothing and it might not point to anything, but this time gap and Ned's distaste for the supernatural could very well point to some hidden meaning or event. It's at least enough to make you wonder. I agree Ned's willingness to see the supernatural as just stories is telling. And there is a gap. There are lots and lots of gaps. But if she actually wighted in front of him--can't see any evidence that Ned is THAT far in denial. . . seems more like Royce or those who've only heard the stories. Never actually seen wights or Others. If Lyanna had actually wighted--can't think of anything that says Ned denies what he actually sees. . . happy to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Yet the eyes in this passage are not described as blue . . . although Martin describes the eyes of the Army of the Damned as blue stars. I imagine in the context of the religion in question, we are talking about the eyes being seven-pointed stars, not the blue stars of the cold gods. I agree, the eyes are depicted as stars [and presumably as you say 7-pointed ones] not regular ones "blue as stars" Don't mind me, I'm simply dropping a buoy so that I can come back and explore this further when I'm sober. My first reaction is Symeon Star Eyes and his "sapphire blue eyes" and how that might translate to the 7-pointed stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Stuff like this is why my favorite pet theories revolve around the stories relation to the Norse myth of Ragnarok. An end times story where the world undergoes a great winter and is scoured by fire. In this turmoil and time of war, the land sinks beneath the sea. The description of the type of world Ragnarok takes place in certainly sounds exactly like the world GRRM has built: "Brothers will fight and kill each other, sisters' children will defile kinship. It is harsh in the world, whoredom rife; an axe age, a sword age; shields are riven; a wind age, a wolf age; before the world goes headlong. No man will have mercy on another." This idea of the end of the world coming as a literal (or, more likely, figurative) submergence under water are also a good way to frame the cleverness of Patchface's prophecies, with "under the sea" being symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending". Not sure why this post is being ignored. The Patchface connection is especially interesting Could not agree more "Ramsey Gimp" with your query. I read e1kobong's plog yesterday and thought the same thing. If I might offer my own sentiments, I got lost on the last comment about "when the world was ending". I'm not an expert on Norse Mythology and Ragnorak; Which leads me.... I must confess the whole "patchface" verbiage has escaped me. I haven't paid attention, and "most likely to my own fault" do I think he will matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I agree with nearly all of what you said. I will point out, however, that prophecy did save the Targaryans from the big DOOM! BOOM! Without it they may not have survived to be part of today's story. (Unless of course they were somehow involved, but as we have no evidence of that...) I am also quite distrustful of Dany. As you have said before, she is definitely quite isolated. There is currently really no one left to point her in the right direction. Plus with this latest turn towards fire and blood... Who is there to pull her back from this? Amen re: Dany. My list of fictional children (she still seems like a kid to me) that I irrationally worry about is getting longer. As for the prophecy--agree the history says it saved them. Am assuming that's why they cling to prophecy so hard, even though we haven't seen the actual prophecies that "saved" them. And, to play devil's advocate--do we know if Daenys actually had the prophecy, or were there indications that Valyria was getting ready for Doom and the Targs read the writing on the volcanoes? No way to know. But they are driven by it, not by stories like the Starks. I still like the idea of the prince that was promised is a Westeros prophecy. Kinda makes sense. Yes--it does make sense. So, did the Targs pick up on the prophecy from Dragonstone? Hear about it, find books, or even pick it up by being closer to the magic collective of Westeros? I'm pretty sure Dragonstone doesn't have a godswood (happy to be corrected)--but if Daenys was "sensitive" she could have picked up visions. . .maybe. Other potential crackpot: if the Daynes are connected to the Long Night (really think they are) and since they do predate the Valyrian freehold--could the Daynes have brought the prophecy to Valyria? Via trade, etc.? Or maybe they just brought the story and it got turned into a prophecy? It was like Old Nan's stories. Would repeat itself. And got twisted into a prophecy. . . maybe. And no way to prove it that I can see. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Do you really think that dead rose petals that have been thoroughly dried in the arid climate of Dorne for months have retained enough moisture to be able to bruise & blacken? or would they just crumble in her clinched fist??? Any reason why she couldn't have been given more roses? IE: if she were in a place with a garden. . . Or is there a reason to assume the roses she's holding are the same ones from the crown? Just in the context of the other current discussion its interesting that Cersei sees two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death - as Cersei has no interest far less any connection with Up North, her yellow eyes of death are perhaps more "natural" and reflecting a snake-like malevolence, but yet Lord Eddard sees death in blue eyes - as blue as stars. Why? Yup--Ned is making connections whether he intends to or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Probably because it was missed in the slew of posts and/or because its spot on.Its something i agree with - Westeros being in the grips of an Extinction event.The second one anyway from the info in the series(1st LN) Agreed. But not just an extinction event. The Patchface stuff seems more about reversing realities, everything upside down. Like a gibberish version of "the last shall be first and the first shall be last." The current order will be undone--and we are seeing that. Just with Jon, let alone everything else. . . . Edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Agreed. But not just an extinction event. The Patchface stuff seems more about revisiting realities, everything upside down. Like a gibberish version of "the last shall be first and the first shall be last." The current order will be undone--and we are seeing that. Just with Jon, let alone everything else. . . . True true sometimes its prudent to heed the ramblings of a mad man. I especially love the "first shall be last,and last shall be first analogy," which is another spot on observation. This is an age coming to an end and a new one on the cusp of emerging,what it will look like is up for debate.But to sync your observation with something i think is happening. Its something we have gone back and forth with here. 1. A world purged of magic and all the magical creatures where men reign supreme 2. A world filled with sympathetics. When ash and snow flakes settle things will be different for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Agreed. But not just an extinction event. The Patchface stuff seems more about reversing realities, everything upside down. Like a gibberish version of "the last shall be first and the first shall be last." The current order will be undone--and we are seeing that. Just with Jon, let alone everything else. . . . Edited for spelling When talking about stuff upside down, one more thing comes to mind. "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before." Style here looks quite similar to Patchface, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Amen re: Dany. My list of fictional children (she still seems like a kid to me) that I irrationally worry about is getting longer. As for the prophecy--agree the history says it saved them. Am assuming that's why they cling to prophecy so hard, even though we haven't seen the actual prophecies that "saved" them. And, to play devil's advocate--do we know if Daenys actually had the prophecy, or were there indications that Valyria was getting ready for Doom and the Targs read the writing on the volcanoes? No way to know. But they are driven by it, not by stories like the Starks. Yes--it does make sense. So, did the Targs pick up on the prophecy from Dragonstone? Hear about it, find books, or even pick it up by being closer to the magic collective of Westeros? I'm pretty sure Dragonstone doesn't have a godswood (happy to be corrected)--but if Daenys was "sensitive" she could have picked up visions. . .maybe. Other potential crackpot: if the Daynes are connected to the Long Night (really think they are) and since they do predate the Valyrian freehold--could the Daynes have brought the prophecy to Valyria? Via trade, etc.? Or maybe they just brought the story and it got turned into a prophecy? It was like Old Nan's stories. Would repeat itself. And got twisted into a prophecy. . . maybe. And no way to prove it that I can see. . . My understanding is that they moved out to Dragonstone in response to the prophecy, rather than that she turned dreamy once they were settled. Something which I find interesting and gets overlooked is what came next and what Aegon did before becoming the conqueror. Along comes the Doom and literally rips the heart out of the Valyrian Empire, but of course being an Empire there were plenty of Valyrians surviving outside of Valyria, most notably in Volantis, but when the "Old Blood" tried to put the empire back together again, instead of doing his patriotic duty Aegon joined the coalition which stopped them. Was this just an exercise in realpolitik or was there something else underlying the prophecy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Stuff like this is why my favorite pet theories revolve around the stories relation to the Norse myth of Ragnarok. An end times story where the world undergoes a great winter and is scoured by fire. In this turmoil and time of war, the land sinks beneath the sea. The description of the type of world Ragnarok takes place in certainly sounds exactly like the world GRRM has built: "Brothers will fight and kill each other, sisters' children will defile kinship. It is harsh in the world, whoredom rife; an axe age, a sword age; shields are riven; a wind age, a wolf age; before the world goes headlong. No man will have mercy on another." This idea of the end of the world coming as a literal (or, more likely, figurative) submergence under water are also a good way to frame the cleverness of Patchface's prophecies, with "under the sea" being symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending". Not sure why this post is being ignored. The Patchface connection is especially interesting Thanks for bringing it up RG, I certainly didn't see it. Of particular interest to me is this: This idea of the end of the world coming as a literal (or, more likely, figurative) submergence under water are also a good way to frame the cleverness of Patchface's prophecies, with "under the sea" being symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending". I think we can take this idea much further, and quite literally. What is snow and ice, but frozen water? It would then follow that "under the sea" is symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending", and... you guessed it... "Winter is Coming." Brilliant stuff e1kabong. The connections or analogs between ASoIaF and Norse & Celtic myths have certainly been discussed in the Heresy forums and they are definetly there. The big difference is how 1:1 it will be. It is most likely they are merely allusions to give the feeling of "realness" to the reader, a similitude to keep the suspension of disbelief in place as opposed to very decided playing out of the Ragnarok specifics. There are already plenty of bad fantasy books to cover that story. Somehow I doubt that's where GRRM is going. I sense you are no stranger here BtB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Or is there a reason to assume the roses she's holding are the same ones from the crown? Quite honestly and notwithstanding the romantics I'd say not, purely in practical terms. Lyanna is presented with the crown at Harrenhal. What does she then do with them? If she were going straight home afterwards its possible that they might be carefully packed up for eventual storage or even display with other treasures, but instead what little we do know is that the Starks appear to be on the move as the preparations are made for the wedding. Then in foul weather as winter returns Lyanna is abducted at or near the Inn at the Crossroads and at the very least [ie; without allowing for detours] rides all the way to Dorne. In all honesty given these circumstances [and the absence of a substantial escort] I really can't see the sort of baggage train necessary. OK OK you don't need a baggage train and everything in it just to transport some dried roses but that's where they'd be carried rather than in an overnight bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Lyanna likely fed the rose-crown to her horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 That probably explains the abduction. Her horse had the staggers and couldn't run away fast enough when Rhaegar and his gang tooled up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I'm sorry, but... Roses, thorns, similar stuff. Definitely, Rheagar's message should be translated as "Tyrells send their regards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Proper English dictates that it is the rose petals that were dead & black... But in the same dream sequence, GRRM has already established that the rose petals are as blue as the eyes of death... I don't see how crushing them would change the color... -- I think that it was written very carefully so that it could be interpreted both ways... -- In the end I think it will be revealed that she was a wight... Or Martin has at least left himself that option... While this is not a theory I usually agree with... it would be kind of a neat parallel for Jon and Ghost to both have been "born of the dead". Of course, having Lyanna die and the baby then removed from her dead body would also accomplish this. :D Have we seen any examples of wights who can talk? Or are you suggesting she was in a Coldhands-like state? Crushing rose petals does turn them a darker/blackish color... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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