Theon and Robb: Betrayal

[Blackfish Tully]

The way i see it the people that Theon betrayed were the Iron Born. He is the heir to the throne and instead of thinking about the responsibility that come with that all he thought about was himself and how everything was affecting him and he never thought about how things would affect the people he would theoretically rule . He was a ward of the north for so long and seemingly a pretty bright guy that he should have understood that Balon's plan was sheer folly and that in the long term there was just no way that they would be able to hold the north and it would just end in disaster. I'm not sure what he should have done but at no time did he ever think of how those actions  would affect his people in the long run. 

[INCBlackbird]

The way i see it the people that Theon betrayed were the Iron Born. He is the heir to the throne and instead of thinking about the responsibility that come with that all he thought about was himself and how everything was affecting him and he never thought about how things would affect the people he would theoretically rule . He was a ward of the north for so long and seemingly a pretty bright guy that he should have understood that Balon's plan was sheer folly and that in the long term there was just no way that they would be able to hold the north and it would just end in disaster. I'm not sure what he should have done but at no time did he ever think of how those actions  would affect his people in the long run. 

And Ned willingly chose war over giving up his honor, he didn't care about all the innocent people that would die for it and he did actually have a say in the matter, Theon didn't. Does that mean Ned betrayed his people?

[Blackfish Tully]

And Ned willingly chose war over giving up his honor, he didn't care about all the innocent people that would die for it and he did actually have a say in the matter, Theon didn't. Does that mean Ned betrayed his people?

 

not sure why you are so obsessed with what Ned did or did not do but I was talking about Theon's betrayal not Ned's. Whatever you think Ned or anybody else did it does not change the fact that Theon betrayed his people by only worrying about how things affected him personally and never once thinking about the people he would be ruling one day if he became King. 

[Lee-Sensei]

The way i see it the people that Theon betrayed were the Iron Born. He is the heir to the throne and instead of thinking about the responsibility that come with that all he thought about was himself and how everything was affecting him and he never thought about how things would affect the people he would theoretically rule . He was a ward of the north for so long and seemingly a pretty bright guy that he should have understood that Balon's plan was sheer folly and that in the long term there was just no way that they would be able to hold the north and it would just end in disaster. I'm not sure what he should have done but at no time did he ever think of how those actions  would affect his people in the long run. 

Yes. Disaster for the North. In going to war with the North, the IB avenged their defeat in Balon's 'bellion. Do you think Robb betrayed the North for not giving up his 'bellion and surrendering after the Battle of Blackwater Bay?

[Shokktrooper]

Yes Robb sent Theon as an envoy, as a sign of good faith to Balon (who didn't take it as that at all), I don't think Theon should be particulary grateful to Robb for not keeping him prisoner (when Theon never did anything wrong in the first place)

Theon did nothing wrong, but that's not the point. Balon upset King Robert and Theon was meant to pay for it, meaning that punishing Theon would be akin to punishing Balon. So yes, Robb would have been within his rights if he threatened to kill Theon in order to get Balon's compliance.

When Theon is given actual responsibility and power to take action (something he never had in Winterfell) of course this goes wrong right way, he takes Winterfell as a response to that because he came up with another AMAZING future plan that involved Winterfell and the people of Winterfell considering him as good a leader as Ned Stark.

That doesn't really make sense. Theon lived in Winterfell for most of his life, and he of all people should understand that the people of the North wouldn't listen to anyone but a Stark. I doubt he was foolish enough to believe that if he attacked Northmen and captured Winterfell, everyone would still like him. He definitely shouldn't have believed that he could be the next Eddard Stark.

Theon definitly took Winterfell for personal reasons. But that doesn't make it any more of a betrayal in my opinion because he was already at war with the Starks and it's not like he took Winterfell for revenge, he actually desparately wants the people of Winterfell to like him.

I don't think he took Winterfell because he wanted to make the people of Winterfell like or respect him, he took Winterfell because he wanted his kinsmen on the Iron Islands to respect him. If he really just wanted to join in the war against the North, he could have just followed his father's orders and reaved along the shore like he was told to. Nowhere was he asked to take Winterfell.
 

at first while looking for Bran and Rickon he promises Maester Luwin that he wouldn't kill them. after Theon gets super desparate Ramsay takes his chance and gives Theon the idea of killing the miller's boys instead, he doesn't say it outright (actually for a while I didn't realize that was what happened it was only after someone pointed it out to me that I noticed it, i like to blame it on english not being my first language ;)), Than Theon sends a bunch of people back to Winterfell and announces that he knows where Bran and Rickon are and Maester Luwin goes "you promised to be mercifull" and Theon goes "that was before they made me angry" or something like that. I'm assuming that's what you're referring to?

I guess. I don't really remember that passage very well, and I thought Theon said before he went out hunting for them that he would kill them. I could be wrong, though.

Theon didn't kill Mikken, one of his men beat him when he insulted Theon, mikken kept insulting him though and the ironborn kept hitting him until he eventually died. It wasn't like Theon said "kill him"

Staying silent in that situation is just as bad as saying "kill him." Also, in ADWD when Crowfood asks "Arya" to name some of the men at Winterfell, doesn't Theon admit to having Mikken killed in his internal monologue?
 

I don't even think it changes all that much for Theon whether he had one or two friends, i've also talked before about how it's often a kind of general atmophere that people internalize.

I think he had more than one or two friends, I think he was friendly with most of the population of Winterfell. Now, being friendly doesn't mean that everyone was treated him like Robb did, but I'm sure they at least didn't think of him as an enemy. Yes, they all knew that Theon was a hostage, but that only prevented them from getting too close to Theon because they knew he could be killed at any moment. It didn't stop them from liking him at least a little bit. While Theon wasn't treated like a Stark during his time in Winterfell, things could have been much worse for him.

I don't think it would be his place to complain, Theon was a highborn hostage so it was self explanatory that he'd be taught how to fight with the other highborn children.

Going back to that Ser Rodrik quote you brought up, the master-at-arms said that he should have put a sword in Theon's belly rather than one in his hands. That implies that Ser Rodrik had some sort of choice in the matter, and that he could have refused to teach Theon or at the very least taught Theon badly, but that was clearly not the case.

[INCBlackbird]

 

not sure why you are so obsessed with what Ned did or did not do but I was talking about Theon's betrayal not Ned's. Whatever you think Ned or anybody else did it does not change the fact that Theon betrayed his people by only worrying about how things affected him personally and never once thinking about the people he would be ruling one day if he became King. 

I'm just asking for some consistency. You can't just single out one character for something while most characters did the same thing but somehow only that one character is guilty because... I don't know, because you don't like or something? I don't think Theon or Ned are guilty of betraying their people. However if you think Theon is, than so is Ned... so I'm asking you again? is Ned also guilty of betraying his people? is Robb? Stannis?

[Blackfish Tully]

Yes. Disaster for the North. In going to war with the North, the IB avenged their defeat in Balon's 'bellion. Do you think Robb betrayed the North for not giving up his 'bellion and surrendering after the Battle of Blackwater Bay?

 

What does Robb have to do with it ? I'm talking about Theon's betrayal not Robb's or Ned's . Just because somebody else screwed up does make  it Ok for Theon to screw up . 

So taking a few castles in the North avenges their defeat in Balon's rebellion ? How does that help them in long run? Theon as heir to the kingdom should be looking out for the long term benefit of the Iron Born not obsessed with his own personal glory . They had a chance to ally with Robb against Tywin or ally with Tywin against Robb or ally with Renly or Stannis but instead they took some castles that really did nothing for their long term benefit and missed out on a chance to improve their future . 

[Lee-Sensei]

What does Robb have to do with it ? I'm talking about Theon's betrayal not Robb's or Ned's . Just because somebody else screwed up does make  it Ok for Theon to screw up . 

So taking a few castles in the North avenges their defeat in Balon's rebellion ? How does that help them in long run? Theon as heir to the kingdom should be looking out for the long term benefit of the Iron Born not obsessed with his own personal glory . They had a chance to ally with Robb against Tywin or ally with Tywin against Robb or ally with Renly or Stannis but instead they took some castles that really did nothing for their long term benefit and missed out on a chance to improve their future . 

1) Is that a yes or a no?

 

2) Allying with Robb was the wrong move. Attacking the North for King Joffrey would have been the right one.

[Blackfish Tully]

I'm just asking for some consistency. You can't just single out one character for something while most characters did the same thing but somehow only that one character is guilty because... I don't know, because you don't like or something? I don't think Theon or Ned are guilty of betraying their people. However if you think Theon is, than so is Ned... so I'm asking you again? is Ned also guilty of betraying his people? is Robb? Stannis?

 

Actually i can single out one person and say he's guilty of something . If we use your logic then we can never criticize anybody because there is always somebody who screwed up worse then they did . 

If you think that Ned or Robb betrayed their people that's fine you can post that all over here if you want to but that does not mean I should not say that Theon betrayed his people because their are other people who did the same or worse. 

[Blackfish Tully]

1) Is that a yes or a no?

 

2) Allying with Robb was the wrong move. Attacking the North for King Joffrey would have been the right one.

 

I would have had no problem with Balon attacking the North for King Joffrey or joining Renly or Stannis , those would have been much smarter moves then the stupid move that Balon pulled . Theon owed nothing to the Starks but he did owe something to his own people and he should have realized that Balon's moves were stupid and were not going to help his people in the long run. We have his POV and nowhere in there (unless i've forgotten) does he ever thing of anything but how these actions affect him on a personal level., not once does he ever think of his people . 

 

 

[Lee-Sensei]

I would have had no problem with Balon attacking the North for King Joffrey or joining Renly or Stannis , those would have been much smarter moves then the stupid move that Balon pulled . Theon owed nothing to the Starks but he did owe something to his own people and he should have realized that Balon's moves were stupid and were not going to help his people in the long run. We have his POV and nowhere in there (unless i've forgotten) does he ever thing of anything but how these actions affect him on a personal level., not once does he ever think of his people.

Do you feel the same way about Robb?

[INCBlackbird]

Theon did nothing wrong, but that's not the point. Balon upset King Robert and Theon was meant to pay for it, meaning that punishing Theon would be akin to punishing Balon. So yes, Robb would have been within his rights if he threatened to kill Theon in order to get Balon's compliance.

So it's ok to punish a child for their father's sins? Sorry but I don't agree with that kind of logic, innocents don't deserve to suffer for what someone else did, guilt by association is one of the most prejudiced ways of thinking. Just because "the good guys" did it doesn't make it morally acceptable.

 

 

That doesn't really make sense. Theon lived in Winterfell for most of his life, and he of all people should understand that the people of the North wouldn't listen to anyone but a Stark. I doubt he was foolish enough to believe that if he attacked Northmen and captured Winterfell, everyone would still like him. He definitely shouldn't have believed that he could be the next Eddard Stark.

It doesn't make sense no, but than again Theon doesn't deal with reality. He shouldn't think that way and yet he does :

 

"serve me as loyally as you served Ned Stark, you’ll find me as generous a lord as you could want." - Bran VI  (A Clash of Kings)

"I’ve used them gently, and this is how they repay me. He’d even had two of his own men whipped bloody for raping that kennel girl, to show them he meant to be just. They still blame me for the rape, though. And the rest. He deemed that unfair." - Theon IV (A Clash of kings)

"You’d think the others might be grateful he hadn’t chosen one of them, but no." - Theon IV (A Clash of Kings)

Theon expects them to be grateful because he didn't kill them despite the fact that Theon still invaded them and took them prisoner in their own home, but then again they expected Theon to be Grateful to the Starks for not locking him in a dungeon so yeah we can see where he came by that twisted way of thinking.

“Theon told himself he must be as cold and deliberate as Lord Eddard.” - Theon IV (A Clash of Kings)

 

 

I don't think he took Winterfell because he wanted to make the people of Winterfell like or respect him, he took Winterfell because he wanted his kinsmen on the Iron Islands to respect him. If he really just wanted to join in the war against the North, he could have just followed his father's orders and reaved along the shore like he was told to. Nowhere was he asked to take Winterfell.

He wanted them all to respect him, that was essentially his problem, he told himself he'd picked the ironborn but he couldn't fully commit to them (partially because his father and sister took the belief away that Pyke could be a home to him, he had too much doubts about that so he turned to Winterfell and tried to make that his home) If he just wanted the ironborn to respect him he could have burned Winterfell to the ground, taken the starks, Frey's and Reeds and won the war in one stroke. But he was too attached to Winterfell to do that, and too obsessed with what people think of him. Throughout his entire Clash arc, especially in Winterfell he thinks more and more about how people dislike him and tells himself that he doesn't deserve that dislike, he's extremely bothered by it. To just give you one example from his last clash chapter : “Of late it seemed to him as if the very stones of Winterfell had turned against him. If I die, I die friendless and abandoned. What choice did that leave him, but to live?”

 

 

I guess. I don't really remember that passage very well, and I thought Theon said before he went out hunting for them that he would kill them. I could be wrong, though.

 

no he didn't, this is what he said:
"Maester Luwin trotted up to him as they were following a game trail along the lip of a ravine. “Thus far hunting seems indistinguishable from riding through the woods, my lord.”   Theon smiled. “There are similarities. But with hunting, there’s blood at the end.”   “Must it be so? This flight was great folly, but will you not be merciful? These are your foster brothers we seek.”   “No Stark but Robb was ever brotherly toward me, but Bran and Rickon have more value to me living than dead.”   “The same is true of the Reeds. Moat Cailin sits on the edge of the bogs. Lord Howland can make your uncle’s occupation a visit to hell if he chooses, but so long as you hold his heirs he must stay his hand.”   Theon had not considered that. In truth, he had scarcely considered the mudmen at all, beyond eyeing Meera once or twice and wondering if she was still a maiden. “You may be right. We will spare them if we can.”   “And Hodor too, I hope. The boy is simple, you know that. He does as he is told. How many times has he groomed your horse, soaped your saddle, scoured your mail?”   Hodor was nothing to him. “if he does not fight us, we will let him live.” Theon pointed a finger. “But say one word about sparing the wildling, and you can die with her. She swore me an oath, and pissed on it.”   The maester inclined his head. “I make no apologies for oathbreakers. Do what you must. I thank you for your mercy.”   Mercy, thought Theon as Luwin dropped back. There’s a bloody trap. Too much and they call you weak, too little and you’re monstrous." - Theon IV (A Clash of Kings)

 

 

Staying silent in that situation is just as bad as saying "kill him." Also, in ADWD when Crowfood asks "Arya" to name some of the men at Winterfell, doesn't Theon admit to having Mikken killed in his internal monologue?

 

Theon is responsible for sure and it's possible that he admits to it yes, as he accepts responsibility for his actions in ADWD, I don't remember which quote you'd be referring to though. I may be wrong but this is the only one I remember where he specifically mentions Mikken: "They were all dead now. Jory, old Ser Rodrik, Lord Eddard, Harwin and Hullen, Cayn and Desmond and Fat Tom, Alyn with his dreams of knighthood, Mikken who had given him his first real sword. Even Old Nan, like as not. And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him. " - Theon (A Dance with Dragons)
But either way, he is responsible for his death for sure but I do think there's a difference between outright ordering to kill him and not stopping one of his men from doing it when you're using it as an argument that Theon had no problem putting people to death. the two times we're in Theon's thoughts when he kills someone or is present to a killing he respectively thinks "that was more than Theon could stomach" - Theon III and "afterwards he was sick" - Theon V

It's not about whether or not Theon is responsible for his death (he is) it's about if he's heartless enough to kill Bran and Rickon, I kinda doubt it based on what we see of him in the books. I'm sure Theon'd like to believe he is, but than again he's kinda obsessed with being this hard man.

 

 

I think he had more than one or two friends, I think he was friendly with most of the population of Winterfell. Now, being friendly doesn't mean that everyone was treated him like Robb did, but I'm sure they at least didn't think of him as an enemy. Yes, they all knew that Theon was a hostage, but that only prevented them from getting too close to Theon because they knew he could be killed at any moment. It didn't stop them from liking him at least a little bit. While Theon wasn't treated like a Stark during his time in Winterfell, things could have been much worse for him.

 

there's nothing that points towards Theon being friendly with most of the population in Winterfell, in fact there's textual "evidence" that points towards the contrary. we can never really know of course but when you have situations like the one with patrek, Bran and Robb in the woods, what Luwin says and Theon's own  thoughts on the matter it becomes pretty clear to me.

 

 

Going back to that Ser Rodrik quote you brought up, the master-at-arms said that he should have put a sword in Theon's belly rather than one in his hands. That implies that Ser Rodrik had some sort of choice in the matter, and that he could have refused to teach Theon or at the very least taught Theon badly, but that was clearly not the case.

 

You think Ser Rodrik could have chosen to put a sword in Theon's belly? come on now...

 

[INCBlackbird]

 

Actually i can single out one person and say he's guilty of something . If we use your logic then we can never criticize anybody because there is always somebody who screwed up worse then they did . 

If you think that Ned or Robb betrayed their people that's fine you can post that all over here if you want to but that does not mean I should not say that Theon betrayed his people because their are other people who did the same or worse. 

So why did Theon betray his people according to you but not Robb or Ned or any of the others? Why is it only Theon? Do you not see the hypocricy in that?

[Lady Sharya]

And Ned willingly chose war over giving up his honor, he didn't care about all the innocent people that would die for it and he did actually have a say in the matter, Theon didn't. Does that mean Ned betrayed his people?

I thought you didn't judge characters like all us hypocrites? Highhorses get too dizzy to keep standing.;)

[INCBlackbird]

 

I would have had no problem with Balon attacking the North for King Joffrey or joining Renly or Stannis , those would have been much smarter moves then the stupid move that Balon pulled . Theon owed nothing to the Starks but he did owe something to his own people and he should have realized that Balon's moves were stupid and were not going to help his people in the long run. We have his POV and nowhere in there (unless i've forgotten) does he ever thing of anything but how these actions affect him on a personal level., not once does he ever think of his people . 

 

actually, Theon is the only one out of all the people in the story who are fighting wars who gives his men a choice to leave because he doesn't require them to die for him. So if anything, Theon is less guilty of betrayal (according to your logic) than all the other war generals (or whatever you call it) in the story.

[Lady Sharya]

actually, Theon is the only one out of all the people in the story who are fighting wars who gives his men a choice to leave because he doesn't require them to die for him. So if anything, Theon is less guilty of betrayal (according to your logic) than all the other war generals (or whatever you call it) in the story.

He let Ramsay murder all his IB men who knew about the Miller boys. Theon betrayed the North and the Iron Born. He layed a trap for IB at Moat Cailin...to be be slaughtered. And don't even try the "Reek" multiple personality thing. He was still Theon Greyjoy.

[Blackfish Tully]

So why did Theon betray his people according to you but not Robb or Ned or any of the others? Why is it only Theon? Do you not see the hypocricy in that?

 

where the hell did I ever say anything about Robb or Ned not betraying their people .  I just commented on Theon and never said anything about Ned and Robb . Please show me where i said Robb and Ned did not betray their people and if you can't please don't call me a hypocrite. 

[INCBlackbird]

I thought you didn't judge characters like all us hypocrites? Highhorses get too dizzy to keep standing. ;)

true, I am consistent in my judgement, I don't think Ned betrayed his people by chosing his honor over them, neither do I think Theon betrayed his people, consistency you see?

[INCBlackbird]

He let Ramsay murder all his IB men who knew about the Miller boys. Theon betrayed the North and the Iron Born. He layed a trap for IB at Moat Cailin...to be be slaughtered. And don't even try the "Reek" multiple personality thing. He was still Theon Greyjoy.

oh and now we're blaming Theon for Ramsay's actions, classy.

[INCBlackbird]

 

where the hell did I ever say anything about Robb or Ned not betraying their people .  I just commented on Theon and never said anything about Ned and Robb . Please show me where i said Robb and Ned did not betray their people and if you can't please don't call me a hypocrite. 

well when I asked you if they did, you avoided replying to it again and again. So let me ask you again, do you think Ned, Robb, Stannis and so on betrayed their people?