Caspoi Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 As much as I like Tolkien's works I am going to give the victory to GRRM here. After all creating complex characters is his speciality just as worldbuilding is Tolkien's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Bastard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Tolkein is not a fan of Martin. Come on, seriously. Rape, violence, and a food love that JRR could not have even have imagined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 That might be because of the POV structure of George instead of omnipotent narrator. There is no doubt that Martin has been very creative in making the most out of the use of multiple POVs. This is a subject that deserves its own topic. As an aspiring writer, I think it's really fascinating. The interesting part of art is always about the restrictions and limitations of the medium. Pushing against those boundaries - how realistic can you make a mosaic appear, for example? - is where creativity comes out. The inherent limitations of unreliable narrator and the lack of an omnipotent narrator are fascinating, and again, George has made the most of these. I find I greatly prefer both of these techniques, and have a hard time envisioning myself not trying to use them when I get around to writing more of my own stuff instead of theories about ASOIAF. When I read another book an the omnipotent narrator comes in with the "...and little did he know that that would be the last time he would ever..." I just roll my eyes and cringe. I think more people should adopt George's style in this regard - the unreliable narrator has the effect of making the reader work harder, pay attention more, because they aren't being spoon fed. George makes you work to figure out which thoughts in a characters inner monologue are wrong... it's so much more engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Tolkein is not a fan of Martin. Tolkien is dead. Stop pretending you KNOW what he would think. "Tolkien would PROBABLY not be a fan of Martin" would be much less presumptuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Bastard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Tolkien is dead. Stop pretending you KNOW what he would think. "Tolkien would PROBABLY not be a fan of Martin" would be much less presumptuous. I can totally get on board with that. Tolkien would probably not be a fan of Martin. Is that better ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I can totally get on board with that. Tolkien would probably not be a fan of Martin. Is that better ? Much better. TY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I still think he would be. If he could have seen the direct outgrowth of his work he would have been very pleased. :fencing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Stark Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 As much as I like Tolkien's works I am going to give the victory to GRRM here. After all creating complex characters is his speciality just as worldbuilding is Tolkien's. I would have to agree with this. LOTR was my original favorite fantasy series of all time,and is still #2. ASOIAF is the best fantasy series I've ever read, vivid and detailed, doing everything right with multiple layers of everything. BUT! Tolkien has his strengths. Because of his professorial, historical, linguist background, there is a kind of weighty authenticity to his fantasy that I've never found anywhere else, even ASOIAF, though World of Ice and Fire is a fantastic, Silmarillion-like addition to the cannon that no other author besides Tolkien has surpassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I still think he would be. If he could have seen the direct outgrowth of his work he would have been very pleased. :fencing: Yeah I don't get the assumption that Tolkein wouldn't like work that is different from his own. But I think the point in this thread is discuss the differences and similarities, so I suppose it's just a way of saying that they are different. But I agree, I am sure Tolkein would be thrilled to see what fantasy has become as genre, including ASOIAF which of course has done more for the genre than anyone in recent memory. Similarly, I'm sure Martin rolls his eyes at the show as much as we, but he's still proud of it, and proud his work has created / inspired something that has been so successful and appealing, even if it often misses the point (points) of his own work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 hmmm tolkein's craftsmanship was self referential, like arwen and aragorn could be compared to beren and luthien this is something that grrm has not attempted to do at all, asoiaf has shout outs to all of speculative fiction but, tolkein did do something similar with fairy tales and nursery rhymes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 hmmm tolkein's craftsmanship was self referential, like arwen and aragorn could be compared to beren and luthien this is something that grrm has not attempted to do at all, asoiaf has shout outs to all of speculative fiction but, tolkein did do something similar with fairy tales and nursery rhymes... Are you suggesting that Martin's main story characters are not references to historical / mythical figures in ASOIAF? Because they absolutely are, every single one of them. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Characters like Gollum, Turin, Boromir, Denethor, etc are among the most complex characters even on fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 tolkein made a self contained story, a perfect and accurate chronology tolkein characters live in a perfectly constructed and unique fantasy world grrm borderline abuses unreliable narrator and an exhaustive list of other fantasy and sci fi authors he has referenced in his works grrm characters live in an admixture of all speculative fiction worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 tolkein made a self contained story, a perfect and accurate chronology, you can believe every word your read, and all of it is about the tolkein legendarium tolkein characters live in a perfectly constructed and unique fantasy world grrm uses unreliable narrator and an exhaustive list of other fantasy and sci fi authors he has referenced in his works grrm characters live in an admixture of all speculative fiction worlds Right on, gotchya. Although I am fairly certain Tolkien drew influences from external mythology, including Norse mythology, so I'm not sure your point holds in the extreme dichotomy you are presenting. I'd agree George is probably using more external references, and certainly that he is drawing from a lot of history / historical fiction writing, but of course Tolkien was influenced by external myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Are you suggesting that Martin's main story characters are not references to historical / mythical figures in ASOIAF? Because they absolutely are, every single one of them. Please correct me if I misunderstood. I think the meaning is that Tolkien drew from myths to create a new myth-story. Martin takes from EVERYTHING to create a fantasy novel, much closer to The Once and Future King than The Lord of the Rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Bastard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Much better. TY. Tolkien never whipped out little JRR and jacked it to Food. I doubt that GRR could say the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Tolkien never whipped out little JRR and jacked it to Food. I doubt that GRR could say the same... I think you need to go sit in a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think you need to go sit in a corner. I don't know I think he may have a point with the food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I don't know I think he may have a point with the food. You think Martin is a sitophile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Bastard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think you need to go sit in a corner. You can think in one hand and crap in the other. And see which one gets filled first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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