Interesting theory about LSH, Jaime and Brienne

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Has anyone seen this theory from Poor Quentyn's tumblr? It really surprised me when I read it and I'm wondering what others think of it. Here's the meat of it: 
 

Brienne leads Jaime to Stoneheart, who claps him in chains and drags him to Riverrun “to resume your captivity,” as foreshadowed by the Blackfish in Feast. The Brotherhood w/o Banners and their Riverlord allies launch the Second Red Wedding. Stoneheart forces Jaime to watch Daven and Genna die, or maybe even to execute one or both of them himself. Brienne’s guilt becomes too great to bear; she frees Jaime, and they have a final moment together before Lem cuts her down (again, it’s foreshadowed in Feast: “It’ll be me killing you.”) Jaime brutally kills Lem, but rather than escape, he dons the Hound helm in order to slip in amongst the Brotherhood. This will symbolically mark the end of Jaime’s attempts at redemption and the return of his most violent self. He kills Stoneheart for good with Oathkeeper (ironically breaking his oath to never again take up arms against the Tullys), witnessed by Thoros. The red priest pities Jaime and is glad to have Stoneheart gone, so he offers to let Jaime go in peace…in exchange for the helm. The Riverlands plot in Winds ends on the image of the Hound’s snarling face melting in Thoros’ fire. Come Dream, Jaime will ride west a broken man to confront Cersei at Casterly Rock, where it all began…

 
And there's a even more analysis and explanation here:
 

Jaime’s story is about redemption, yes, but mostly concerned with the limits of redemption, how it can take you so far and no further. Ultimately, Jaime Lannister is still not a good person, still no true knight, and he knows it. Brienne of Tarth is both, and he knows that too, which is why he sends her to find and protect Sansa. I cannot be the hero. I know that now. But I think you can. 
 
 
He enters Stoneheart’s sanctuary and shoves Oathkeeper through her, with his off hand, awkwardly. There will be nothing glorious or exciting about this. It will be sad and horrible.

 
This theory was not what I was anticipating for the storyline but it is an interesting ending for the characters. I especially like Poor Quentyn's analysis of Jaime and how he can go but so far in recreating himself before he snaps.
 
So....thoughts? 
 
 
 
* I'd like to reiterate that this is not my theory but one I read on tumblr and was written by Poor Quentyn.

[Isobel Harper]

Forcing Jaime to resume captivity at Riverrun is a possibility, and not one I previously considered. One interesting possibility that could come from this is Stoneheart/BwB pulling a "reverse-Jaime" by threatening to kill Jaime outside the walls of RR if the castle is not returned to Edmure.

However, I disagree that Brienne will die first. Jaime's dream of him and Brienne fighting below Casterly Rock foreshadows this: they both have flaming swords until the end, when Jaime's "light" (a symbolism of his life) begins to go out.

[Lateral]

Brienne leads Jaime to Stoneheart, who claps him in chains and drags him to Riverrun “to resume your captivity"

frankly, I would absolutely hate this to happen. it would be such a cliché. the villain has everything he ever wanted (vengeance in this case) very close, but instead of just doing it he does something that gives the person we root for the chance to escape. if Lady Stoneheart does anything else than hang Jaime immediately, it would imho be totally out of character.

[Isobel Harper]

I disagree. If Jaime's life could be used as a bargaining chip to getting RR back, I think she'd take the opportunity. As to Jaime still being treated fairly afterwards, however, is doubtful. Ref: Merrett Frey.

[Dolorous22]

 

frankly, I would absolutely hate this to happen. it would be such a cliché. the villain has everything he ever wanted (vengeance in this case) very close, but instead of just doing it he does something that gives the person we root for the chance to escape. if Lady Stoneheart does anything else than hang Jaime immediately, it would imho be totally out of character.

I hear ya, but what you're saying, it's almost a contradiction in terms.
If the characters only have a small amount of options due to rigid or inflexible personalities it basically makes them predictable. I find it very hard to believe that we already have LS's M.O and what's more, dead hostages don't achieve anything. 

[David Selig]

frankly, I would absolutely hate this to happen. it would be such a cliché. the villain has everything he ever wanted (vengeance in this case) very close, but instead of just doing it he does something that gives the person we root for the chance to escape. if Lady Stoneheart does anything else than hang Jaime immediately, it would imho be totally out of character.

What? The villain in this case is Jaime the murderous traitorous scumbag.

[Lateral]

What? The villain in this case is Jaime the murderous traitorous scumbag.

they way he is written in ASOS; AFFC and ADWD GRRM definitely wants us to like him, or at least not dislike him.

 

 

 

I hear ya, but what you're saying, it's almost a contradiction in terms.
If the characters only have a small amount of options due to rigid or inflexible personalities it basically makes them predictable.

of course it's predictable, because LSH is a one-dimensional zombie. ;)

[A horsefaced girl]

I doubt it would be that easy for BwoB to take RR. I at this point I think Jaime is not as valuable a bargaining chip. I also think it's more likely that Jaime would give his life for Brienne rather than the other way around.

[sweetsunray]

they way he is written in ASOS; AFFC and ADWD GRRM definitely wants us to like him, or at least not dislike him.

 

of course it's predictable, because LSH is a one-dimensional zombie. ;)

 

But one with Robb's crown, using camp followers for info on intended targets (and get the crown back), sending Tom Sevenstrings into RR who could have passed a message to Edmure, who passed his message to the Blackfish, before he escaped, Northern soldiers unaccounted for (possibly a thousand) but said to roam the woods. Signal fires. Daven feeling watched. Several houses who did not partake in the siege of RR, and several of those who did basically ate the food and hang back. RR's garisson blending away in the woods after the surrender.

 

LS's role is not done until the Lannisters and Freys will be beaten. Lannisters and Freys are scattered and leaderless as they are - open house at Darry, escort of Edmure and Jeyne Westerling, Black Walder at Seagard, escort of the Greatjon and other captives along the KR from Twins to Trident, and half their army caught in a blizzard at a Battle of the Ice near WF. If ever there is an opportunity turn the present power status on its head, it'll be in WoW.

 

GRRM wrote LS for a purpose, not just revenge or serve as some cardboard figure to be killed, but to politicalize the BwB pro-Stark and pro-Tully. aFfC and aDwD has presented us with this seemingly bleak image that the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons won and will remain in power until Aegon and/or Dany arrive. And yet even though we have a POV within the BwB with Brienne he has purposefully kept us in the dark about it. The only POVs we've had regarding the Stark-Tully side the past two books was from the LC at the Wall, far away from WF, and two Greyjoy captives - Asha and Theon. As Ygritte so often reminds us, Jon knows nothing. Asha and Theon know even less, because they're captives and not privy to any strategic plans. But GRRM kept us completely out of the loop once Brienne joins the BwB, except for a few hints from Jaime's POV easily missed because he doesn't know their implications.

 

On top of that, a lot of the symbolism regarding LS defines her as the mythological figure Hel, the female ruler of the Norse underworld Hel and the realm of 9 rivers Niflheim (misty lands). The daughter of Loki was thrown in one of the rivers and became ruler of Niflheim and the Norse version of Hades afterwards - half blue/black (corpse) and half human flesh. I agree though that there is to be a showdown between Jaime and Lem as the Hound. In the same symbolism, the hellhound Garmr guards Hel and fights one-handed Tyr, where both end up killing each other.

[Dolorous22]

they way he is written in ASOS; AFFC and ADWD GRRM definitely wants us to like him, or at least not dislike him.

 

of course it's predictable, because LSH is a one-dimensional zombie. ;)

Oh. See that's where we differ. I think she's all there in the head. Furious, yeah, but not insane. Her treatment of Brienne demonstrates that she's capable of scheming. A feral Cat would of killed Brienne there and then IMO. 

[Lateral]

@sweetsunray: that's a very good post, thank you.

 

Oh. See that's where we differ. I think she's all there in the head. Furious, yeah, but not insane. Her treatment of Brienne demonstrates that she's capable of scheming. A feral Cat would of killed Brienne there and then IMO. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is insane... just... very obsessed with vengeance. But yeah, the more I think about it, the less I am sure how the Brienne, Jaime, LSH encounter will turn out.

[Avlonnic]

 

<snip>

On top of that, a lot of the symbolism regarding LS defines her as the mythological figure Hel, the female ruler of the Norse underworld Hel and the realm of 9 rivers Niflheim (misty lands). The daughter of Loki was thrown in one of the rivers and became ruler of Niflheim and the Norse version of Hades afterwards - half blue/black (corpse) and half human flesh. I agree though that there is to be a showdown between Jaime and Lem as the Hound. In the same symbolism, the hellhound Garmr guards Hel and fights one-handed Tyr, where both end up killing each other.

 

Oh.  Perhaps that explains Lem's mysterious doggedness about hanging on to that accursed Hound helm.  It seemed so odd to me that Lem would cling to something that represents the Lannisters as well as the atrocities at the Saltpans (for which LSH is actively wreaking vengeance.) 

 

I don't think using Jaime as a hostage outside RR would be effective in itself as Mr. Genna PaperWaver Frey is unlikely to trade a castle for ... well, anyone, really.  (Perhaps I misjudge him, but that is my impression.)

[sweetsunray]

@sweetsunray: that's a very good post, thank you.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is insane... just... very obsessed with vengeance. But yeah, the more I think about it, the less I am sure how the Brienne, Jaime, LSH encounter will turn out.

 

LS isn't insane. But she's ruthless. At first it was revenge, but as the BwB must have gathered up roaming Northmen, the background hints suggest their military resistance strategy in play. It has become more than revenge imo, but true resistance/guerilla war.  It is the latter that GRRM has kept back, so at the surface we're only left with this idea that LS is a 1 dimensional spectre of revenge, and not as a cunning resistance leader planning to pull the rug from under Lannister and Frey feet. Most people missed the sparse militarized and strategy clues GRRM gave us. Because of this many regard LS as nothing more than a prop. He told us though that she's important.

 

And exactly because he kept it out of primary view, I'm inclined to think they will succeed. LS is like that giant wolf pack hanging at the wall for the right moment to go off.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

LS's role is not done until the Lannisters and Freys will be beaten. 
 
GRRM wrote LS for a purpose, not just revenge or serve as some cardboard figure to be killed, but to politicalize the BwB pro-Stark and pro-Tully. 

 

But does it have to be LSH that beats the Freys/Lannisters? Can't it be the BwB without her? There seems to be some dissension in the "Brotherhood" these days under her direction.

 

On top of that, a lot of the symbolism regarding LS defines her as the mythological figure Hel, the female ruler of the Norse underworld Hel and the realm of 9 rivers Niflheim (misty lands). The daughter of Loki was thrown in one of the rivers and became ruler of Niflheim and the Norse version of Hades afterwards - half blue/black (corpse) and half human flesh. I agree though that there is to be a showdown between Jaime and Lem as the Hound. In the same symbolism, the hellhound Garmr guards Hel and fights one-handed Tyr, where both end up killing each other.

 

This is very interesting and the similarities to ASOIF is striking. More theories to consider. 

 

Oh. See that's where we differ. I think she's all there in the head. Furious, yeah, but not insane. Her treatment of Brienne demonstrates that she's capable of scheming. A feral Cat would of killed Brienne there and then IMO.

 
Actually she's (as in Cat) not all there. That's why Martin said she no longer has a POV. Not insane but not all there. Something different after her "death".

[sweetsunray]

 

Oh.  Perhaps that explains Lem's mysterious doggedness about hanging on to that accursed Hound helm.  It seemed so odd to me that Lem would cling to something that represents the Lannisters as well as the atrocities at the Saltpans (for which LSH is actively wreaking vengeance.) 

 

I don't think using Jaime as a hostage outside RR would be effective in itself as Mr. Genna PaperWaver Frey is unlikely to trade a castle for ... well, anyone, really.  (Perhaps I misjudge him, but that is my impression.)

 

Yup, I believe that's why GRRM had the Hound helm pass into Lem's hands imo. The Hound's helm serves as a symbolic marker. Doesn't mean that everyone who carried that helm was a Garmr. But in combation with a one-handed Jaime, LS pretty much a Hel, Hollow Hill as a type of seat of Hades, and Lem established as one with a "guarding" role (that's what he was supposed to do - guard and watch the Orphans' Inn from the bushes and road before falling for Rorge's trick)... Lem with the Hound helmet is a significant head's up imo.

[Dolorous22]

 

 

Actually she's (as in Cat) not all there. That's why Martin said she no longer has a POV. Not insane but not all there. Something different after her "death".

Okay, yeah I can agree with that. 'All there' would be optimistic. 

[Dolorous22]

@sweetsunray: that's a very good post, thank you.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is insane... just... very obsessed with vengeance. But yeah, the more I think about it, the less I am sure how the Brienne, Jaime, LSH encounter will turn out.

That's the best attitude to have and enhancing our ideas is the best reason to join the forum.  :thumbsup: 

 

[RomKat]

It is an interesting take that I would not have ever thought of. And It is very well thought out. And I super agree with "limits of redemption" bit but would making Jaime witness a second Red Wedding, if there was one, really effect him? And would Brienne really go down that easily? I could see some of this playing out as a rouse maybe. Like Brienne can convince them of Jaime's change, and how he's rejecting Cersei's plea. Have him pretend to be a captive to lower other people's defenses, and then let him help attack. I think he and Brienne still have a ways to go, maybe not together though I think they grow as individuals through their interactions, but outside of each other, I feel like they still have longer roles.

 

(Personally, I'd really like it if they did help LSH find Sansa's whereabouts and unite the Eryie and Riverlands but that's for another thread)

[sweetsunray]

 

But does it have to be LSH that beats the Freys/Lannisters? Can't it be the BwB without her? There seems to be some dissension in the "Brotherhood" these days under her direction.

 

 

This is very interesting and the similarities to ASOIF is striking. More theories to consider. 

 

 
Actually she's (as in Cat) not all there. That's why Martin said she no longer has a POV. Not insane but not all there. Something different after her "death".

 

Yup, it ought to be LS, since GRRM said she's important and she is the strongest rally figure for any Tully and Stark supporter out there in the RL. I can't think of any other figure rallying them to such a cause than her - she had her throat cut, watched her son and his bannermen be slain at the Red Wedding, she died and yet she lives. She's horrid on the one hand, but thereby serves as a reminder in the RL "we shall not forget". RL-ers don't have that motto like the North. LS is the living reminder. 

 

Some may have left the BwB, like Edric Dayne (for logical reasons - his allegiance was to Beric as his squire) and Thoros may be melancholic about the olden days with Beric, but even Thoros recognizes the need for LS. But for the few that left, they gained a tenfold probably.

 

LS literally gives the BwB a mythical cause on top of that of revenge and military strategy. The Blackfish can give revenge and military strategy, but no divine air to it. LS' existence is what gives followers the conviction that the gods are on LS' side, not the Lannisters, not the Freys. Such a conviction renders her followers with an unprecedented fighting spirit. Beric had that same divine air, but he was neutral. Beric did not have the spirit or goal to do what LS is doing. I think Beric realized this, along with his vow to Arya, and the reason why he passed his life onto her. After the RW, Beric's neutrality was unattainable, and the roaming Northmen wouldn't have followed him, even if the Lord of Light resurrected him time and time again.

 

On top of that she was the mother and wife of a Stark, and the leading daughter of Tully - the Tullys who sheltered smallfolk inside RR during the Wo5K. She's both North and RL-er. Beric was a marcher lord. So, in LS you have a divine figure (for the people in world at least), who can rally Northerners, RL-ers and smallfolk to one cause.

 

Now imagine LS dying in the middle of their attempt to oust and beat Lannisters and Freys... For the followers it would be as if the gods declare their purpose as futile. They'd lose all spirit and break up.

 

Beric led the way to get the smallfolk on the BwB side. LS gives the BwB aim.

[The Kinkslayer]

Taking RR would serve no long term purpose. Stoneheart wants the Lannisters/Boltons/Freys dead and getting through all the trouble of capturing Jaime just to kill Eamon and Jenna just makes no sense.