Maximum potential extent of the Valyrian Freehold?

[Maester of Valyria]

Maester of Valyria@ they still have enough wealth of their own, and I still hold that dragons are a trumps-everything-card, especially if you have them in large numbers. The Rhoynar, who had magic of great use when combating dragons, and who where a great Power of their own right, with some of the best steel and such were absolutely annialated by the Freehold.

Look, I have said several times, from my original post on page one onwards, that I do not believe Yi Ti would win against Valyria! All I have said is that Yi Ti would put up much more of a fight than Ghis or the Rhoynish ever did. My justification for this is based on geography (the Bones present a major obstacle, the Jade Gates are a chokepoint which could be blockaded by Leng, etc) and on the fact that Yi Ti, in TWOIAF, is apparantly described as Valyria's equal, or close to, in terms of resources, wealth, and military capabilities (dragons aside, obviously). I have said that Valyria might not be able to defeat an alliance of east-of-Bones civilisations (see my post on page one); note that I did not say 'Valyria would lose'. It is important to remember that Valyria would presumable also have had the power of Westeros, Sarnor, Qarth, Braavos and possibly the Summer Isles to draw upon, in addition to what it had before the Doom (again, my reasoning for all this is explained on page one). Therefore it is likely in my opinion they would be able to expand east of the Bones.

 

I agree with you when you say that dragons are a trump card, but historical precedent shows they can be killed by arrows (Rhoynish wars), arrows (Rhoynish and Dornish wars), and by sorcery, which Yi Ti probably will have access to. You mention the Rhoynish wars, but Yi Ti is an even greater power than the Rhoynish, and seems to have access to even larger armies. Once again, I am not saying Valyria would lose, I am just stating that the conquest of Yi Ti would be more difficult than that of Ghis or the Rhoyne.

[Caspoi]

That I will not argue, but Rhoyne has access to a lot of magic that is very useful in fighting dragons specifically.

[Maester of Valyria]

True, but how do you know that Yi Ti doesn't have the same? In fact, it would seem inevitable, as Yi Ti have had contact with dragons before.

[Lord Wraith]

That I will not argue, but Rhoyne has access to a lot of magic that is very useful in fighting dragons specifically.

 

Still hoping the Dornish use Rhoynar water magic at some point.

[DominusNovus]

The Yi Ti probably have more contact with Asshai, which, as we know, is the 'here be stuff weirder than dragons' on the map.

[Maester of Valyria]

The Yi Ti probably have more contact with Asshai, which, as we know, is the 'here be stuff weirder than dragons' on the map.

:agree: My point

[Caspoi]

Maester of Valyria@ The Rhoynar worshipped Mother Rhoyne and lived alongside the river so it makes great sense for their magic to be primarly water based. Not much has been mentioned regarding YiTish magic but considering that their mythology includes a lot of contrasts between light and darkness (the Lion of the Night and the Maiden of Light are their two chief gods after all) I would bet that is it and this would fit seeing as Asshai, which is right next to it is famous for it's shaowbinding. A personal guess but the people of Yi Ti might practice some kind of "lightbinding".

 

P.S. Is it just me or did George Martin include an awful lot of dualistic religions?

[Maester of Valyria]

That does make sense. After all, the types of magic that people can do often seems dependant on their ancestral home (eg, Targaryens are dragon-tamers, Starks and Free Folk are skinchangers, Asshai'i are shadowbinders and necromancers, and as you said, the Rhoynish were users of water magic). Your idea about lightbinding (illumancing?) makes a lot of sense. I was inclined to the view they would practice a type of magic already mentioned, such as aeromancing (which would be very useful against dragons, obviously) as well as the seemingly universal blood magics.

 

You're right about all the dualistic religions-it is a bit odd. However, remember the Faith of the Seven and the Old Gods, the two religions we are most familiar with. It would make sense to flesh these two religions out more than the other, more minor, ones. Besides, there are theories about why there are so many dualistic religions...

[raegal_targaryen]

YI TI would have have Fallen pretty fast too.....thats not even debatable, there armies wouldnt have mattered if the dragon lords would have emptied there dragons and left fo yi ti an army of million and there sorcerers to would have died dont forget valyrians had there own sorcerers to and the bathed in destrution like there dragons.

[falcotron]

Not much has been mentioned regarding YiTish magic but considering that their mythology includes a lot of contrasts between light and darkness (the Lion of the Night and the Maiden of Light are their two chief gods after all)

You're reading an awful lot into a single very short myth. Plenty of the individual myths in most polytheistic religions are only about two gods. When you read a single story about Thor and Loki or Set and Osiris, you don't decide that they come from dualistic religions. And in this case, the myth explicitly mentions a third god. In fact, their foundational myth sounds an awful lot like those from many real-world ancient empires, from Old Kingdom Egypt to Shinto Japan.

Later, the Bloodstone Emperor didn't switch from worshipping the Maiden Made of Light to the Lion of Night; he abandoned all of the gods of the Yi Ti and worshipped a black stone from the sky. And the Lion of Night is portrayed as righteously punishing mankind for the Bloodstone Emperor's wickedness, akin to God sending down Noah's flood, which is hardly what you'd expect from a duotheistic equivalent of Ahriman or the Great Other.

Finally, notice that the other time the Lion of Night is mentioned, it's among the many polytheistic gods worshipped by different segments of the population in Braavos, in his case rich traders. Again, that doesn't fit at all with the evil god of a dualist religion.

... this would fit seeing as Asshai, which is right next to it ...

The distance from Yi Ti's easternmost output at Jinqi to Asshai is farther than the distance from, say, Norvos to Saath. Or, if you go by sea (passing over another country along the way), from Pentos to King's Landing.

Also, notice that the Five Forts were built to keep away demons from the north/northeast, not the southeast.

I think you're trying to stretch what we know about eastern Essos into a simple, coherent story, but with so little to go on, it's all invented, not found in the text.

P.S. Is it just me or did George Martin include an awful lot of dualistic religions?

I don't think he did. There's R'hllorism, obviously. The Drowned and Storm Gods seem to be a dualistic religion that evolved from the pre-Children polytheism of the First Men. But what else?

The Old Gods are an animist/pantheist religion.

The ancient Valyrian religion is clearly Roman-style polytheism. The Rhoynar religion sounds like a mix of Celtic polytheism and the polytheistic Roma form of Hinduism with some animism mixed in. There are a slew of other gods mentioned as being worshipped by sailors, soldiers, the poor, rich traders, etc. in Braavos, who seem to be mostly from a range of polytheist pantheons. The Unsullied worship of the Lady of Spears seems to be similar. The First Men appear to have been polytheists before picking up the pantheist nature religion of the Children; the Lady of the Waves and other gods mentioned here and there seem to be survivals from that religion.

The religions of Qohor, Norvos, and Lorath seem to be henotheistic: there are many gods, but only one of them is worthy of worship.

The Faith of the Seven is obviously monotheistic (in the same complicated way as Christianity), as is the Many-Faced God (in the same complicated way as some forms of Hinduism).

The Dothraki and Lhazareen may be monotheists, although I suspect their religions are more akin to early Tengri and similar forms of shamanism.

The Pattern seems to be an abstract non-theist religion.

For other religions, like the Moonsingers, we don't really know anything about what they believe about the gods, but none of them sound at all dualist.

[Maester of Valyria]

^ There's The Lady of the Waves & The Lord of the Skies from the Three Sisters.

 

YI TI would have have Fallen pretty fast too.....thats not even debatable, there armies wouldnt have mattered if the dragon lords would have emptied there dragons and left fo yi ti an army of million and there sorcerers to would have died dont forget valyrians had there own sorcerers to and the bathed in destrution like there dragons.

Er, the speed at which Yi Ti would have fallen is debatable-that's what we've been doing. The Rhoynish and Dornish showed how enough soldiers can kill dragons, even without magic. You mention an army of a million: I can't tell if you mean a YiTish or Valyrian army, but in the case of the former the Yi Ti seems to be capable of raising at least as many soldiers, who would pose a threat to dragons, and in the case of the latter the Valyrians would have struggled to get such a large force through the Bones intact. Yi Ti's sorcerers would not necessarily have all died off, but would probably have continued to fight against the Valyrians. If you read my post on page one you can see my justifications for Yi Ti being a tough fight for Valyria.

[Caspoi]

You're reading an awful lot into a single very short myth. Plenty of the individual myths in most polytheistic religions are only about two gods. When you read a single story about Thor and Loki or Set and Osiris, you don't decide that they come from dualistic religions. And in this case, the myth explicitly mentions a third god. In fact, their foundational myth sounds an awful lot like those from many real-world ancient empires, from Old Kingdom Egypt to Shinto Japan.

Later, the Bloodstone Emperor didn't switch from worshipping the Maiden Made of Light to the Lion of Night; he abandoned all of the gods of the Yi Ti and worshipped a black stone from the sky. And the Lion of Night is portrayed as righteously punishing mankind for the Bloodstone Emperor's wickedness, akin to God sending down Noah's flood, which is hardly what you'd expect from a duotheistic equivalent of Ahriman or the Great Other.

Finally, notice that the other time the Lion of Night is mentioned, it's among the many polytheistic gods worshipped by different segments of the population in Braavos, in his case rich traders. Again, that doesn't fit at all with the evil god of a dualist religion.

The distance from Yi Ti's easternmost output at Jinqi to Asshai is farther than the distance from, say, Norvos to Saath. Or, if you go by sea (passing over another country along the way), from Pentos to King's Landing.

Also, notice that the Five Forts were built to keep away demons from the north/northeast, not the southeast.

I think you're trying to stretch what we know about eastern Essos into a simple, coherent story, but with so little to go on, it's all invented, not found in the text.

 

 I am just saying that if the two chief gods of Yi Ti are that of light and darkness, and that the theme of a people's magic often corrseponds to the theme of their religion. Also Asshai is the only Far Eastern place where we have some knowldge about their magic and theirs is shadowbinding, further strengthening the theme my hypothosesis (note: hypothosesis) propose, where I say that Yi Ti practices the opposite equivalent of shadowbinding.

 

Again, I am just guessing, and the purpose of my guesswork is establishing that magic generally works in themes according to the different cultures and that we have nothing saying that Yi Ti would practice water magic.

 

 

I don't think he did. There's R'hllorism, obviously. The Drowned and Storm Gods seem to be a dualistic religion that evolved from the pre-Children polytheism of the First Men. But what else?

The Old Gods are an animist/pantheist religion.

The ancient Valyrian religion is clearly Roman-style polytheism. The Rhoynar religion sounds like a mix of Celtic polytheism and the polytheistic Roma form of Hinduism with some animism mixed in. There are a slew of other gods mentioned as being worshipped by sailors, soldiers, the poor, rich traders, etc. in Braavos, who seem to be mostly from a range of polytheist pantheons. The Unsullied worship of the Lady of Spears seems to be similar. The First Men appear to have been polytheists before picking up the pantheist nature religion of the Children; the Lady of the Waves and other gods mentioned here and there seem to be survivals from that religion.

The religions of Qohor, Norvos, and Lorath seem to be henotheistic: there are many gods, but only one of them is worthy of worship.

The Faith of the Seven is obviously monotheistic (in the same complicated way as Christianity), as is the Many-Faced God (in the same complicated way as some forms of Hinduism).

The Dothraki and Lhazareen may be monotheists, although I suspect their religions are more akin to early Tengri and similar forms of shamanism.

The Pattern seems to be an abstract non-theist religion.

For other religions, like the Moonsingers, we don't really know anything about what they believe about the gods, but none of them sound at all dualist.

 

Well, I underestimated the amount of religions that exist in aWoIaF, that is probably why I thought so.

[falcotron]

I am just saying that if the two chief gods of Yi Ti are that of light and darkness, and that the theme of a people's magic often corrseponds to the theme of their religion.

Well, sure, if their two chief gods are the Lion and the Maiden, and if the Lion really is a dualist evil god of darkness a la the Great Other or Ahriman, then it would make sense that they'd have magic similar to R'hllorist magic but related to the light goddess Maiden Made of Light rather than the fire-and-truth god R'hllor.
 
But what makes you think that's true? Again, the little we know of the Lion suggests that, despite his name, he's not a dualist evil god of darkness like the Great Other or Ahriman; he appears as a stern father god (like JHVH) in the Bloodstone Emperor story, and he's worshipped as a polytheistic patron of rich merchants in Braavos (like Hermes). And the fact that they're the two gods mentioned in the origin-of-the-monarchy story doesn't tell us that they're the chief gods in the first place--were Ptah and Amun the chief gods of the early Egyptian pantheon?
 
If you have a preconceived notion that Yi Ti's religion should be like R'hllorism, and then try to fit the little information we have into a consistent story around that notion, and then use that story to justify your preconceived notion, then you can convince yourself. But you could do the same for almost anything. That doesn't mean you've found a hidden truth in GRRM's story, it just means that there's so little information in the story that it's easy for an invention to avoid contradicting anything.
 

Also Asshai is the only Far Eastern place where we have some knowldge about their magic and theirs is shadowbinding, further strengthening the theme my hypothosesis (note: hypothosesis) propose, where I say that Yi Ti practices the opposite equivalent of shadowbinding.

You can't infer anything about Sarnori magic or religion from Qohor; why do you think you can infer anything about Yi-Ti's from Asshai? You're starting from the assumption that we must already know enough to figure out Yi Ti's religion. But there's no reason to believe that assumption. In particular, there's no reason to believe that Yi Ti is Asshai's opposite number, and plenty of reason to believe it isn't (e.g., the Five Forts are pointing north-northeast, not southeast or toward the coast, so that's probably where you'd find Yi Ti's opposite).
 

Again, I am just guessing, and the purpose of my guesswork is establishing that magic generally works in themes according to the different cultures and that we have nothing saying that Yi Ti would practice water magic.

I agree that we have no evidence that Yi Ti's magic is water-focused. But we also have no evidence that it's light-focused. You can guess almost anything you want, and invent a self-consistent story around it, but that doesn't make your guess any more better-supported.

For example:

Yi Ti's religion is focused on the earth, opposed by the heavens on one side and the waters on the other. Everything about their culture emphasizes solidity and stability. Their foundation myth is about the birth of a God in the Earth, who became both their mundane ruler and their chief god for thousands of years. Their mythical kings, who all descend from him, and their quasi-historical eras, are all named after gems and precious metals: opal, golden, bloodstone, amethyst, etc. The Long Night was caused by them turning away from the earth to worship an alien black stone that fell from the heavens. They built the Five Forts of fused earthly black stone as wards against the heavenly power of the alien black stone. The Forts also lie between their Empire and the Shrinking and Bleeding Seas, presumably home to water magic; beyond those seas lie the Jogos Nhai and the N'ghai, whose moonsinger-focused religion implies heavenly magic. Greyscale is supposed to originally come from Yi Ti; what could be a more fitting curse or weapon for a culture built on earth magic?

I've managed to connect up a lot more of what we know about the Far East than you did, in a consistent story, and yet it's still not even speculation, just pure invention.

[Caspoi]

Well, sure, if their two chief gods are the Lion and the Maiden, and if the Lion really is a dualist evil god of darkness a la the Great Other or Ahriman, then it would make sense that they'd have magic similar to R'hllorist magic but related to the light goddess Maiden Made of Light rather than the fire-and-truth god R'hllor.
 
But what makes you think that's true? Again, the little we know of the Lion suggests that, despite his name, he's not a dualist evil god of darkness like the Great Other or Ahriman; he appears as a stern father god (like JHVH) in the Bloodstone Emperor story, and he's worshipped as a polytheistic patron of rich merchants in Braavos (like Hermes). And the fact that they're the two gods mentioned in the origin-of-the-monarchy story doesn't tell us that they're the chief gods in the first place--were Ptah and Amun the chief gods of the early Egyptian pantheon?
 
If you have a preconceived notion that Yi Ti's religion should be like R'hllorism, and then try to fit the little information we have into a consistent story around that notion, and then use that story to justify your preconceived notion, then you can convince yourself. But you could do the same for almost anything. That doesn't mean you've found a hidden truth in GRRM's story, it just means that there's so little information in the story that it's easy for an invention to avoid contradicting anything.
 
 

 Where have I said that I Believe that the Lion of the Night is evil? I have not, but he is "of the night" (mayby Darkstar is the Lion of the Night reborn, joke) and caused the Long Night according to the YiTish so he is a god of night and darkness, that much is more or less undisputable.

 

You can't infer anything about Sarnori magic or religion from Qohor; why do you think you can infer anything about Yi-Ti's from Asshai? You're starting from the assumption that we must already know enough to figure out Yi Ti's religion. But there's no reason to believe that assumption. In particular, there's no reason to believe that Yi Ti is Asshai's opposite number, and plenty of reason to believe it isn't (e.g., the Five Forts are pointing north-northeast, not southeast or toward the coast, so that's probably where you'd find Yi Ti's opposite).
 
 

Admittedly that is simply something that I used argument because magic is most often different in between cultures and if shadowbinding is already taken...

Flimsy I admit.

 

 

I agree that we have no evidence that Yi Ti's magic is water-focused. But we also have no evidence that it's light-focused. You can guess almost anything you want, and invent a self-consistent story around it, but that doesn't make your guess any more better-supported.

For example:

Yi Ti's religion is focused on the earth, opposed by the heavens on one side and the waters on the other. Everything about their culture emphasizes solidity and stability. Their foundation myth is about the birth of a God in the Earth, who became both their mundane ruler and their chief god for thousands of years. Their mythical kings, who all descend from him, and their quasi-historical eras, are all named after gems and precious metals: opal, golden, bloodstone, amethyst, etc. The Long Night was caused by them turning away from the earth to worship an alien black stone that fell from the heavens. They built the Five Forts of fused earthly black stone as wards against the heavenly power of the alien black stone. The Forts also lie between their Empire and the Shrinking and Bleeding Seas, presumably home to water magic; beyond those seas lie the Jogos Nhai and the N'ghai, whose moonsinger-focused religion implies heavenly magic. Greyscale is supposed to originally come from Yi Ti; what could be a more fitting curse or weapon for a culture built on earth magic?

I've managed to connect up a lot more of what we know about the Far East than you did, in a consistent story, and yet it's still not even speculation, just pure invention.

 

We will have to agree to disagree there.

[falcotron]

Where have I said that I Believe that the Lion of the Night is evil? I have not, but he is "of the night" (mayby Darkstar is the Lion of the Night reborn, joke) and caused the Long Night according to the YiTish so he is a god of night and darkness, that much is more or less undisputable.

This is another example of misremembering the story to fit your preconceived idea, rather than following the story to where it actually leads.

What the story actually says the Bloodstone Emperor caused the Long Night, the Maiden Made of Light caused the darkness by turning her face away from the world, and the Lion of Night sent demons to punish mankind. How do you get that the Lion caused the Long Night from that?

[Caspoi]

This is another example of misremembering the story to fit your preconceived idea, rather than following the story to where it actually leads.

What the story actually says the Bloodstone Emperor caused the Long Night, the Maiden Made of Light caused the darkness by turning her face away from the world, and the Lion of Night sent demons to punish mankind. How do you get that the Lion caused the Long Night from that?

True, but what I want to say is that he was active during the Long Night, it was "his time" so to speak. You are evading the subject here which is that, good or evil, the Lion of the Night is... of the night.

[falcotron]

True, but what I want to say is that he was active during the Long Night, it was "his time" so to speak. You are evading the subject here which is that, good or evil, the Lion of the Night is... of the night.

I'm not evading the subject here; you're changing the subject. Sure, the Lion of Night is "of the night"; it's right there in his name. He's also a lion. And far eastern. So what? Nothing you were suggesting originally, or even in your last message, follows from that. You've admitted that the idea of "lightbinder" powers was based on a flimsy parallel rather than any arguments related to the gods of Yi Ti, you've admitted that the Lion didn't cause the Long Night, but you still keep looking for something to argue about. Now that you've finally retracted your argument to something obvious and inconsequential, sure, I agree, but what was the point of that?

[Caspoi]

I'm not evading the subject here; you're changing the subject. Sure, the Lion of Night is "of the night"; it's right there in his name. He's also a lion. And far eastern. So what? Nothing you were suggesting originally, or even in your last message, follows from that. You've admitted that the idea of "lightbinder" powers was based on a flimsy parallel rather than any arguments related to the gods of Yi Ti, you've admitted that the Lion didn't cause the Long Night, but you still keep looking for something to argue about. Now that you've finally retracted your argument to something obvious and inconsequential, sure, I agree, but what was the point of that?

 

It is related to the gods of Yi Ti, it is based on the fact that the two main (known) gods are that of light and that of darkness and that most people's magic is related to their religion.